Invisibility to Hearing Group

[Tasha]

But that also is not the only possible interpretation. One could certainly interpret "hearing invisibility" to mean that the sounds of footsteps across the floor (squeaky or otherwise), even sprinting over hardwood in tap shoes, the crunch of the leaves, etc. is cancelled out by the Invisibility.

Invisibility covers the sounds that the person makes. So yes their shoes would be silent, but not the effects of their weight on the floor or on the branches of a tree moving/breaking/making noise while breaking. To do that they need Desolidification and/or Flight with Invis Power Effects vs Sound.

 

But it seems reasonable that, if these environmental effects are cancelled for Invisibility to Hearing, the character who is Invisible to Sight can extend that over objects he picks up (his own foci and clothes are Invisible already), or even to his footprints, or the scuffs on the fresh polished floor. That would be consistent across the power for both senses.

Though IF one can toss a sheet over someone who is invisible to sight and still see that person, it would stand to reason that an invisible person picking up an object wouldn't immediately make that object invisible too. It least not until the invisible person has a phase where they can extend their invis to cover the carried object. 

 

Now, what if we have a laser beam that, when broken, sets off a klaxon? Does invisibility to sight, sound or both cancel that out? I am sure Steve would tell us to apply common and dramatic sense in light of the SFX of all of the interacting abilities.

It's pretty clear to me that invisibility to sight would render the laser trigger unable to percieve the PC so wouldn't trigger the klaxon. A person invisible to sound only would still set off the alarm and would still cause the klaxon to sound. Now someone using darkness to sound would still set off the alarm, but the speakers that created the klaxon would remain silent while inside the darkness field.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If they step on Leaves the PC isn't making the sound, the Leaves are.

 

 If you want to run your game in this manner, feel free, but its pretty obvious the intention and design the character has in mind when they buy invisibility to sound.

 

Nobody pays points merely to make themselves mute.  They mean to be unheard, and that means direct interaction with the world like footsteps.

[bigdamnhero]

Not sure that argument would hold water. If you are invisible to sound, then an active (or passive) sonar sounding should not see the person.

I don't actually disagree, and was kindof playing devil's advocate to show that taking the "it's the environment, not me" argument to extremes can take us some weird places.

 

If they step on Leaves the PC isn't making the sound, the Leaves are. 

Again, I think that makes sense from a realism/logic standpoint. But from a game standpoint, Invisibility to [sonar and super-hearing] really ain't worth 10 points to me. Invisibility to Hearing that doesn't cover the sound of my movement is about as worthless a power as you can get, right up there with "I'm only invisible when no one is looking at me."

 

Now, what if we have a laser beam that, when broken, sets off a klaxon? Does invisibility to sight, sound or both cancel that out?

Good analogy. And I would generally agree that if visible light passes through/around the character - which is after all the whole point of being invisible - then a laser would act the same way.

 

Though IF one can toss a sheet over someone who is invisible to sight and still see that person, it would stand to reason that an invisible person picking up an object wouldn't immediately make that object invisible too. It least not until the invisible person has a phase where they can extend their invis to cover the carried object.

Again, depends on sfx. If we're going Old School Invisible Man where only my body is invisible and I have to run around naked to not be seen, then sure. But most Invisible sfx I see act more like forcefields, which means they automatically cover carried items; which BTW is the default way Invisibility works under RAW.

 

Extrapolating from that to Invisible to Hearing: by RAW anything I'm carrying is soundless, so if my cell phone goes off I don't have to worry about someone nearby hearing it buzz. (Effects of Fringe notwithstanding.) Technically I could be carrying an alarm clock or a radio turned to Rush Limbaugh and it wouldn't create any sound as long as I'm holding it.* So I'm having trouble seeing why my invisibility covers stuff touching my gloves or hanging on my belt, but not stuff touching my shoes?

 

But if I knock a wrench off the table, and it's not in contact with my body when it hits the ground, then yes it will make a noise - shoulda bought AOE.

 

In summary, I would say Invisibility to any sense that does not affect the environment immediately in contact with the character (ie their clothes or the ground under their feet) should be worth a Limitation.

 

* Okay, not having to listen to Rush might be worth 10 points!

[Hugh Neilson]

Invisibility covers the sounds that the person makes. So yes their shoes would be silent, but not the effects of their weight on the floor or on the branches of a tree moving/breaking/making noise while breaking. To do that they need Desolidification and/or Flight with Invis Power Effects vs Sound.

Again, not sure I agree or disagree fully, but exploring the concept. Can the character run over a hardwood floor? She's a Russian Femme Fatale spy wearing high heels - it's the hardwood floor making the sound, just as much as a squeaky floorboard, or those crunchy leaves underfoot.

 

Though IF one can toss a sheet over someone who is invisible to sight and still see that person, it would stand to reason that an invisible person picking up an object wouldn't immediately make that object invisible too. It least not until the invisible person has a phase where they can extend their invis to cover the carried object.

Another question for how the power interacts with the environment. If the sheet does not disappear, why does the cape the character wears vanish? How does the power know the difference between a sheet tossed over the character and the character's cape? Maybe we tossed his spare cape over him - how does his Invisibility know which one to leave visible?

 

It's pretty clear to me that invisibility to sight would render the laser trigger unable to percieve the PC so wouldn't trigger the klaxon. A person invisible to sound only would still set off the alarm and would still cause the klaxon to sound. Now someone using darkness to sound would still set off the alarm, but the speakers that created the klaxon would remain silent while inside the darkness field.

That's the approach I would take, as well. Let's complicate it. The character is holding both the klaxon and his own air horn (+10 PRE, only to cause surprise effects, only if target can hear the air horn). Does the klaxon go off but the air horn stays silent? Does it depend how long he has held the klaxon (or the air horn), on the basis it takes some period of time for him to extend the invisibility to the object he picks up?

 

Perhaps a reasonable approach would be that the character may, as a zero phase action, extend his invisibility to items he wears, carries, etc. Thus, when he picks up the klaxon, or the gem off the desk, it becomes silent/unseen as he is taking an action so he can use a 0 phase action as well. But when the sheet is tossed over him, it's not his phase, so he cannot take a zero phase action unless he chooses to Abort (and we could rule that's not an action he can even abort to).

[Tasha]

The sheet over the invisible person making the person visible IS RAW. It's one of the Examples in 6e1. I even gave the page number above IF you would like to read what is actually there.

Invis DOES work for all worn items (though it doesn't make visible attacks invisible). So the Cell phone would not normally be visible.

My read is that Invis covers what is touching your body when you activate invisibility (which is implied with the example about the sheet over the invisible person).  So anything that you encounter after that isn't invisible until your phase where you can make it so with a 0 phase action. So again the branches and leaves on the ground will still crunch when you apply weight to them and they break. same as if the person was at the end of a branch invisible and the branch broke at the tree 2 m away, which would make sound. As would every branch the PC hit on the way down.

I would suggest giving the Invisibility writeup in 6e1 before you make more assertions about what is RAW and is not.

As to whether or not Sonar would see the person invis to Sound would depend on if they spent 10pts on Invis vs Nontargeting Sound or 20 pts on Invis vs Targeting sound. Also this is RAW.

Invis AOE is called "Darkness".

Not being heard normally and not having other senses like Ultrasonic hearing not sense you is worth 10 pts, as is not having your feet hitting the ground make noise. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The sheet over the invisible person making the person visible IS RAW.

 

Sure, because its a larger area than the person, and not carried on them.  But if you throw a napkin on them, it doesn't work any more than when he puts a hat on.

 

Unless he buys invisibility with a limitation like the Invisible Man in HG Wells' book.

 

Most of this is just common sense judgment and how the power is intended to work, as long as it doesn't violate the rules or give more than the power ought to.

 

Invisible to sound person walking on a pressure-sensitive mat: sets it off.

Invisible to sound person walking into a room with audio sensors: nothing.

 

Invisible to sound person walking over a hard floor in boots: no sound.  It doesn't matter what the ground's composition is made of, he's bought a power to make himself make no noise.

 

I'll take this a bit further, using the sheet over invisible guy as a basis.

Invisible to sound person walking on crunchy leaves, gravel, lego, whatever: no sound.

 

Invisible guy stepping on a long branch with dry leaves on the end: makes no sound stepping on the branch or breaking it... but the leaves, far from him, make rustly rattly noises.

 

Why?  because its out side his immediate contact.  The leaves are right under his boots, directly contacted.  No sound.

 

 

That's how I'd run it, anyway

[bigdamnhero]

The sheet over the invisible person making the person visible IS RAW. It's one of the Examples in 6e1. I even gave the page number above IF you would like to read what is actually there.

I did read that and meant to specifically address it in my response, but...didn't. Sorry. Certainly "throwing paint/sand/blanket/whatever on the invisible person" is a well-established trope.

 

My read is that Invis covers what is touching your body when you activate invisibility (which is implied with the example about the sheet over the invisible person).  So anything that you encounter after that isn't invisible until your phase where you can make it so with a 0 phase action.

I think that's a decent rule of thumb. Particularly if something comes as a surprise and it takes the character/power time to adjust. But then since I'm moving on my Phase, does that mean I can make the crunchy leaves inaudible as a 0 phase action? But if on your Phase you Knockback me into a dumpster, then I make noise?

 

(Sidebar: I confess I've never been crazy about the rule that my sword becomes visible the moment I attack someone, because it's a rule that only makes sense from a game-balance standpoint. But I recognize that it does make sense from a game-balance standpoint, so I put up with it. )

 

So again the branches and leaves on the ground will still crunch when you apply weight to them and they break. same as if the person was at the end of a branch invisible and the branch broke at the tree 2 m away, which would make sound.

To me those are two completely different cases: the noise made by the leaves is in immediate contact with the character, whereas the noise made by the other end of the branch is not. We can debate the former, but the latter seems clearly not covered.

 

As to whether or not Sonar would see the person invis to Sound would depend on if they spent 10pts on Invis vs Nontargeting Sound or 20 pts on Invis vs Targeting sound. Also this is RAW.

You're right Active Sonar is a Targeting Sense, so it should be 20 points. Good catch. But that just reinforces my argument that 10 point Invisible to (non-targeting) Hearing is completely useless if you don't allow it to cover the sounds of movement. Again, the one-to-one comparison to Invisible to Sight makes Logic Sense, but I don't think it makes Game Mechanics Sense.

 

Not being heard normally and not having other senses like Ultrasonic hearing not sense you is worth 10 pts, as is not having your feet hitting the ground make noise. 

OK, now I'm confused. This sound like you're saying 10-pt Invisible to Hearing should cover the sound of movement, but I thought you've been arguing that it should not because that's the environment not the character? How is heels striking a hardwood floor any different from shoes crunching leaves? Or did I misunderstand you?

 

Let me ask the question another way: the same page you referenced above, 6e1 p240, has the example power "Advanced Sneakiness" built as Invisible to Hearing, with Requires a Stealth Roll. What do you see that power as doing if it doesn't let you move quietly across a surface that would normally make noise even with "regular" Stealth?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I understand the logic behind saying SONAR vs targeting sense would require more expensive invisibility vs sound.  The principle being Invisibility vs Sound is purchased cheaper because it does not affect targeting senses (ordinarily).  However, I'd offer that this price is not to make it only affect non-targeting senses, but because it is only against what is almost always a non-targeting sense; that is, the price is reduced because it is of significantly less utility than invisibility vs sight.

 

So it works against any sort of hearing-based sense, not just non-targeting ones.

[Tasha]

I would probably default to all environmental close to the person sound being invisible. Even if they were walking on what would normally be the noisiest floor in the world. I would have to rethink that for something that someone paid points for. We aren't really playing GURPS so realism isn't really that much of a consideration.

 

Though I would give a PC the benefit of the doubt and probably penalize an NPC.  Meaning that a PC that had a crackly surface AOE detect (ie like the other thread), I would rule in the favor of the PC (Though I would again probably suggest building the defensive power with Danger Sense UBO). If I wanted my NPC to sneak up on that PC I would buy Flight with Invis power effects. A NPC with the same power would not detect the invis PC walking. Again, I would write up the power differently to avoid the rules issue. which is the great part of being the GM.

Yeah, I know that it's inconsistent. I tend to rule in the player's favor in circumstances where there's ambiguity. Because if I were writing a story, I would probably be a bit biased toward the Protagonists. YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

The sheet over the invisible person making the person visible IS RAW. It's one of the Examples in 6e1. I even gave the page number above IF you would like to read what is actually there.

Actually, it's a blanket in raw, but close enough. It does not go on to assess the length of time over which the Invisibility is foiled, however - does the paint last until the character's next phase, until he can scrub it off, etc. If he applies, say, War paint, does his invisibility cover that because he applied it, or not because paint reveals an invisible person? If the paint is visible until washed off, can the character put on a coat to cover the paint, then turn invisible with the coat, or does only the coat, and not the paint, turn invisible? I think "objects in contact when the character turns invisible/uses the power" makes for a reasonable ability which is fairly straightforward to adjudicate.

 

I agree the "sword appearing out of thin air" is a bizarre rule. It's also inconsistent in that many other similar abilities (the example being claws) would not be an issue. I think I am inclined to override the "hovering sword" rule, but the wounds appear on the Goblin, so they are visible.

 

Invis DOES work for all worn items (though it doesn't make visible attacks invisible). So the Cell phone would not normally be visible.

But "larger objects remain visible", begging the question how far that cloak can billow out. Given Stretching is covered, I am inclined to allow the character's cloak to be covered entirely - but then we are back to why the blanket he is now covered with, or the glue he is Entangled in, cannot become invisible. My simple answer is "it can, but they have until you can make it invisible to perceive it normally".

 

My read is that Invis covers what is touching your body when you activate invisibility (which is implied with the example about the sheet over the invisible person).  So anything that you encounter after that isn't invisible until your phase where you can make it so with a 0 phase action. So again the branches and leaves on the ground will still crunch when you apply weight to them and they break. same as if the person was at the end of a branch invisible and the branch broke at the tree 2 m away, which would make sound. As would every branch the PC hit on the way down.

 

I would suggest giving the Invisibility writeup in 6e1 before you make more assertions about what is RAW and is not.

 

As to whether or not Sonar would see the person invis to Sound would depend on if they spent 10pts on Invis vs Nontargeting Sound or 20 pts on Invis vs Targeting sound. Also this is RAW.

In which edition?

 

Sense-Affecting Powers that affect a Sense Group typically containing Targeting Senses (e.g., the Sight Group) cost more than those which affect Sense Groups that typically contain only Nontargeting Senses (e.g., the Hearing Group). Even if a character has bought the Targeting Sense Modifier for, say, his Hearing Sense Group, that doesn’t change the cost of Sense-Affecting Powers used against him.

In other words, invisibility to the Hearing group is purchased as non-targeting and renders the user invisible to hearing, even where the affected listener has targeting hearing. Ironic that you state the opposite is RAW right after suggesting referring to RAW before making assertions, isn't it?

 

Invis AOE is called "Darkness".

I'm reminded of the old D&D "Invisibility 10' radius. Sight Darkness creates a blob of darkness, and no one within can see in or out. That seems very different than a radius in which the characters are invisible, but still capable of seeing out, and their use of visible powers will still be visible from both within and outside the area of effect. So no, I don't think Invis, AoE is never a valid construct.

 

Not being heard normally and not having other senses like Ultrasonic hearing not sense you is worth 10 pts, as is not having your feet hitting the ground make noise.

OK, I'm not clear why (or even if you are suggesting that) having crunchy leaves between your feet and the floor changes that result. I'm not inclined to rule for PCs one way and NPCs another, although I do share some favouritism to the players.

[Manic Typist]

Invisible to sound person walking on a pressure-sensitive mat: sets it off.

*snip*

Invisible to sound person walking on crunchy leaves, gravel, lego, whatever: no sound.

The thing is.... these two are the same thing. The pressure-sensitive mat is the same as the crunchy leaves, or marbles that get knocked around and clatter into each other, or the floor that groans as it redistributes weight because it has poor structural integrity and is on the verge of collapse... they all make noise because they are NOT the PC and therefore they make noise.

 

No one has argued that a PC walking across a hardwood floor with Invis:Hearing should be heard. The only ones who have argued that are using strawmen to not address the actual, valid argument: that things the PC DOES to the environment are not covered because this isn't Darkness.

 

Also, no one's argued that the PC should be "mute" because of this power, but we did point out that your reasoning suggested they SHOULD be to be consistent. Invisible:Hearing PCs who talk are heard, unless I'm misremembering the rules for the power. Could be.

 

PC walks across a hardwood floor- no noise. PC walks across a hardwood floor that collapses under the weight- the sound of a board snapping and falling below and clattering: noise.

Invisible:Sight PC runs through a wall - there's an outline of the PC in the form of a hole in that wall. By the reasoning you present, there shouldn't be a visible hole in the wall to make it consistent with Invis:Hearing.

 

Invis:Hearing PC falls from a great height - makes no sound as he moves through the air, makes no sound when he impacts the roof of a building - sound IS made when he plows through, sending debris everywhere. No sound when he hits the floor - sound made when he plows through. No sound made when he slams into the concrete and explodes. Sound made when people scream at the horrifying sight.

We're just trying to treat the two builds more or less the same, no one's trying to do anything tricky or cheat the PCs.

 

PCs actions are covered (mostly. I would think an attack would be "visible" in the same way an Invis:Sight attacking PC's weapon would become visible). The world's reactions, the 2nd order effects, are not covered. Just like Sight.

 

Invisibility:Sight prevents the PC's body, clothing, and reasonable personal possessions to not be seen - this doesn't apply to the tracks he makes on mud, snow, dirt, grass, or scuffs on concrete, or opening and closing doors, etc.. Invis:Hearing prevents a PC's body, clothing, and personal possession from being heard- the sound of your boots on the floor, your hands slapping together, your armor rattling, the sound of you chambering a round/drawing a sword. Break something, knock something over, force another item to make a sound (a sound you probably couldn't make on your own anyway)... not covered.

[Hugh Neilson]

The thing is.... these two are the same thing. The pressure-sensitive mat is the same as the crunchy leaves, or marbles that get knocked around and clatter into each other, or the floor that groans as it redistributes weight because it has poor structural integrity and is on the verge of collapse... they all make noise because they are NOT the PC and therefore they make noise.

No, they aren't. The pressure sensitive mat is not making noise, nor detecting the PC through sounds made by the PC. All of the others are emitting a sound.

 

No one has argued that a PC walking across a hardwood floor with Invis:Hearing should be heard. The only ones who have argued that are using strawmen to not address the actual, valid argument: that things the PC DOES to the environment are not covered because this isn't Darkness.

The flaw in this logic is that there is precious little difference between the PC striding across a hardwood floor and striding across crunchy leaves, or through mucky ground that slurps at his boots as he lifts them and splashes as he lowers them.

 

If the PC claps his hands, it is entirely the PC making the sound. So it should be invisible.

 

If a wrench falls from a shelf and clatters to the ground, the wrench striking the ground makes the noise, so no reason it would be invisible.

 

But when the PC's foot hits the hardwood floor, splashes through the muck or crushes the leaves, the sound is created by a combination of the PC and the environment. No feet, no sounds. No environment, no sound. So the three are not really different. If no one is arguing sprinting across the hardwood floor in stiletto heels or tap shoes is silenced by the Invisibility - the sound caused by the hardwood floor, not just the PC, becomes undetectable, then how is it that the sound of the PC splashing through the muck, stepping on a squeaky board or crushing leaves underfoot is detectable? All of these are sounds caused by the PC in combination with his environment. In the absence of objects for the PC`s feet to strike, there would be no sound.

 

I don`t accept that the PC makes a racket running across the hardwood floor. But that means I accept that the PC`s invisibility to sound prevents the interaction of his feet and the floor creating an audible sound. The same logic means the interaction of his feet and the leaves creates no sound. So let`s apply that reasoning to your other examples:

 

- is he mute Well, yes, in a way. If he chooses to speak audibly, he has chosen to make himself perceptible in an audible medium. A PC invisible to sight can`t communicate using sign language and stay invisible either.

 

- the floor collapses under the PC`s weight. The breaking board - interaction of PC foot and the board itself - is silent. But the board crashing to the ground below is not - that is no longer involving the PC at all.

 

- PC falls from a great height - sound is not made by plowing trough the roof directly, but the debris scattering everywhere makes its own sound, independent of the PC.

 

The ability to avoid y9our corduroy trousers preventing you sneaking up on people is not worth paying points for. The ability to avoid being detectible by the crack of shoes on hardwood, or the crunch of leaves underfoot is. Even if a sound an be detected when the floor collapses and debris rains down.

 

As noted, I don`t like the "sword hovers in mid-air"`rule. However, a consistent application suggests that the PC can draw the sword silently, and it can even reverberate silently when striking the wall as he walks. But when he uses it to attack the Goblin, the sounds of that attack are not muffled.

 

Consistent with the Punch Visibility rule, however, a punch (or that Femme Fatale slapping the waiter`s face) should be silent. But that`s not overly helpful if the attacker is not also invisible to sight, and an astute observer might still notice the scent of that femme fatale`s perfume (or the soup the waiter spilled on her earlier). If she also paid for Invisibility to Smell, both her perfume (donned deliberately) and the soup (donned by accident) would be masked.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Pressure sensing mats are detection based on touch.  Doesn't matter how much sound it makes, or the origin of sound, or the scientific structure of how sound is generated or propagated through a medium.  The rules are pretty simple on this and easy to figure out.  If it targets or detects through touch, the invisibility to sound has no effect on the sense.

 

Let's consider a single example, firing a pistol.

 

-Person with invisibility vs sight: the pistol makes a loud bang and the bullet hits the target visibly.  Someone with extreme Rapid sense modifier* can see the bullet once it leaves the gun and travels to the target.  Smoke from the gun is visible in the air around where the shooter was.  But there is no flash, no movement of the gun, etc.

 

-Person with invisibility vs hearing: the pistol makes a large flare of light and fire, the bullet travels to the target and hits audibly and visibly.  The gun makes no sound whatsoever but the bullet may make a crack breaking the sound barrier if its not subsonic, and the empty cartridge of an automatic pistol will make a noise as it flips through the air and bounces off the ground.

 

That's how I see it, at least.

 

 

*Which is really really too expensive at present.  Its just not worth more than a few points to see things fast.

[dmjalund]

Sounds like (pun not intended) what people want is darkness to hearing with Personal Immunity

[Christopher R Taylor]

No, Darkness would work like this:

 

Person walked up to Darkness vs Invisibility and reaches to touch them, their hand vanishes.

Person firing a gun pushes it against Darkness vs invisibility; it stops making noise.

 

Darkness affects everyone in its area, Invisibility only the person in question.

[Manic Typist]

 

 

The flaw in this logic is that there is precious little difference between the PC striding across a hardwood floor and striding across crunchy leaves, or through mucky ground that slurps at his boots as he lifts them and splashes as he lowers them.

 

 

Except there's all the difference in the world- one is a floor which the PC can sprint across and make no noise, and the other is a situation in which they are breaking things. The leaves are the same scenario as the floorboard breaking.

 

It's interesting that in your devil's advocate post, which you agreed with pretty much all of my examples of why Taylor's position is incorrect... that Taylor liked it as if he agreed. All those things that you agreed with... are the opposite of his position as articulated so far.

 

 

Also, bizarrely- no one has said that walking or running or doing jumping jacks across a hardwood floor should make noise. It would be extremely helpful if we could dispense with that straw man.

 

And while it might not be worth any points to silence your corduroy pants (I don't know that I've ever worn the material so I can't speak to how loud it is)... the example I offered is worth quite a few points. Being able to march around in full armor, clanking up and down stairs, drawing swords and (maybe?) attacking people in virtual silence is extremely useful. I can be fully armed and armored, sneaking up on/past guards with my overflowing treasure pouch on my hip jangling away... and make no noise.

 

Give me the ability to do that to a dozen knights, and in a night raid (har har, pun opportunity) I could take a over a castle as my troops march in under the cover of darkness and through the corridors of the castle. Very useful, worth some points.

[bigdamnhero]

I would probably default to all environmental close to the person sound being invisible. Even if they were walking on what would normally be the noisiest floor in the world. I would have to rethink that for something that someone paid points for. We aren't really playing GURPS so realism isn't really that much of a consideration.

Then I think we're in violent agreement.   And I have no problem ruling differently for PCs vs NPC, tho for NPCs I usually try to go with what makes for a better story, rather than just erring in the PCs' favor by default.

 

I'm usually the guy saying the realism isn't a dirty word, and if I were playing a game that stressed realism we'd have to have a conversation about how the sfx works and whether that's worth an Adv/Lim.

 

In other words, invisibility to the Hearing group is purchased as non-targeting and renders the user invisible to hearing, even where the affected listener has targeting hearing.

I'd missed that too. Good catch.

 

The ability to avoid y9our corduroy trousers preventing you sneaking up on people is not worth paying points for. The ability to avoid being detectible by the crack of shoes on hardwood, or the crunch of leaves underfoot is. Even if a sound an be detected when the floor collapses and debris rains down.

Exactly.

 

-Person with invisibility vs sight: the pistol makes a loud bang and the bullet hits the target visibly.  Someone with extreme Rapid sense modifier* can see the bullet once it leaves the gun and travels to the target.  Smoke from the gun is visible in the air around where the shooter was.  But there is no flash, no movement of the gun, etc.

 

-Person with invisibility vs hearing: the pistol makes a large flare of light and fire, the bullet travels to the target and hits audibly and visibly.  The gun makes no sound whatsoever but the bullet may make a crack breaking the sound barrier if its not subsonic, and the empty cartridge of an automatic pistol will make a noise as it flips through the air and bounces off the ground.

Well, except that as we just discussed RAW states that the invisible pistol inexplicably becomes visible/audible when you fire it, unless you've bought IPE for your Invisibility. Which is bizarre, but I do sortof get why Steve built it that way from a game balance standpoint even if it makes little logical sense.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, except that as we just discussed RAW states that the invisible pistol inexplicably becomes visible/audible when you fire it, unless you've bought IPE for your Invisibility. 

 

Yeah that's just not true in my games.  Invisibility is a power that necessarily and by definition makes the origin of your powers invisible to the sense it covers... on your body.  If you fire a gyrojet pistol in cold air, its going to create a con trail right to you, but not be visible when fired.

 

Invisibility is a power which makes your powers have invisible power effects (in that sense group), as long as they are part of you and don't have an external extension like a jet of flame.  It doesn't make their effects or impact invisible, just your use of them.

[Tasha]

Yeah that's just not true in my games.  Invisibility is a power that necessarily and by definition makes the origin of your powers invisible to the sense it covers... on your body.  If you fire a gyrojet pistol in cold air, its going to create a con trail right to you, but not be visible when fired.

 

Invisibility is a power which makes your powers have invisible power effects (in that sense group), as long as they are part of you and don't have an external extension like a jet of flame.  It doesn't make their effects or impact invisible, just your use of them.

 

Of course that's not RAW. The books state that Invisibility does NOT make attack powers invisible. To the point of specifically mentioning that attack foci would be visible at all times unless they had Invis Power Effect.

 

I would allow the PC's (house rule) foci be invisible until they are used. Then all of the 3 senses that the attack must be visible for would be visible. ie the Pistol would be invisible until it was fired. After it was fired the Flame coming from the barrel, Smell of the propellent and the Sound of the gun firing would all be apparent. I would do it this way because I would not want to give PC's a free IPE for every attack they have.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would do it this way because I would not want to give PC's a free IPE for every attack they have.

 

Sure, and that's valid and according to the rules.  Its just that they paid points to be invisible.  Which is the entire point of the power: to act and move without being sensed.  So I think that should cover the source of their powers, if not the effects.

[Hugh Neilson]

Pressure sensing mats are detection based on touch.  Doesn't matter how much sound it makes, or the origin of sound, or the scientific structure of how sound is generated or propagated through a medium.  The rules are pretty simple on this and easy to figure out.  If it targets or detects through touch, the invisibility to sound has no effect on the sense.

Yup - the pressure mat is not a relevant example for sight or hearing invisibility.

 

Let's consider a single example, firing a pistol.

 

-Person with invisibility vs sight: the pistol makes a loud bang and the bullet hits the target visibly.  Someone with extreme Rapid sense modifier* can see the bullet once it leaves the gun and travels to the target.  Smoke from the gun is visible in the air around where the shooter was.  But there is no flash, no movement of the gun, etc.

 

-Person with invisibility vs hearing: the pistol makes a large flare of light and fire, the bullet travels to the target and hits audibly and visibly.  The gun makes no sound whatsoever but the bullet may make a crack breaking the sound barrier if its not subsonic, and the empty cartridge of an automatic pistol will make a noise as it flips through the air and bounces off the ground.

While reasonable, the RAW has that bizarre "weapon becomes visible, and ranged attacks are visible, but natural HTH attacks get to benefit from IPE" rule. I'd change RAW for consistency, though.

 

Except there's all the difference in the world- one is a floor which the PC can sprint across and make no noise, and the other is a situation in which they are breaking things. The leaves are the same scenario as the floorboard breaking.

Sure. In my view, the leaves crunching or floorboards breaking are both things that the Invisible character's feet should be able to do without becoming detected, just as the character should be able to sprint across that hardwood floor in tap shoes or golf cleats - even if they are doing some damage to the floor in the process, which may be the case.

 

It's interesting that in your devil's advocate post, which you agreed with pretty much all of my examples of why Taylor's position is incorrect... that Taylor liked it as if he agreed. All those things that you agreed with... are the opposite of his position as articulated so far.

I don't think it is impossible to like the manner in which a point is made while disagreeing with the underlying point.

 

Also, bizarrely- no one has said that walking or running or doing jumping jacks across a hardwood floor should make noise. It would be extremely helpful if we could dispense with that straw man.

If it makes you happy, I will say it - if Invisibility to Hearing does not mask the sound of interactions with the environment, such as leaves crunching beneath the character's feet, then that should be consistently interpreted as also not masking the sounds of running across a hardwood floor (and leaving tiny dents and scuffs, even if they are not visible to the naked eye). Why do you think the floor wears out after years or decades of people walking over it? Accumulation of tiny amounts of damage - wear and tear. The leaves just "wear out" faster.

[Manic Typist]

 

 

If it makes you happy, I will say it - if Invisibility to Hearing does not mask the sound of interactions with the environment, such as leaves crunching beneath the character's feet, then that should be consistently interpreted as also not masking the sounds of running across a hardwood floor (and leaving tiny dents and scuffs, even if they are not visible to the naked eye). Why do you think the floor wears out after years or decades of people walking over it? Accumulation of tiny amounts of damage - wear and tear. The leaves just "wear out" faster.

 

 

The sound emitted from first contact is totally covered, and the day that the concrete floor breaks from decades of people walking over it... that's the day that Invisibility:Hearing suffers from its difference from not being Darkness. All the other years of invisible people walking over it - nobody makes a sound.

 

 

But let's approach it from another angle:

1) What, if any, SFX would you describe to the Fringe of Invisibility:Hearing? And what are the mechanical consequences of that?

2) What, if any, scenario would be analogous in your mind to the accepted, RAW, and conventional situation in which an Invisible:Sight character leaves footprints in the snow/oil/mud/gets covered in flour/etc. to Invisible:Hearing?

[Christopher R Taylor]

What, if any, SFX would you describe to the Fringe of Invisibility:Hearing? And what are the mechanical consequences of that?

 

Someone very close or with an exceptional perception roll can hear faint noises or echoey sounds; the silence isn't perfect.

 

 

What, if any, scenario would be analogous in your mind to the accepted, RAW, and conventional situation in which an Invisible:Sight character leaves footprints in the snow/oil/mud/gets covered in flour/etc. to Invisible:Hearing?

 

Stepping on a long branch and the dry leaves rustling.

[Manic Typist]

 

Stepping on a long branch and the dry leaves rustling.

 

 

There's no range aspect with Invisibility - the leaves make noise (or don't) regardless of your range. Invisible PCs effects (footprints) aren't more visible at range - their cloaks aren't somewhat visible if they are really long, versus those PCs with just shortcloaks.

[eepjr24]

There's no range aspect with Invisibility - the leaves make noise (or don't) regardless of your range. Invisible PCs effects (footprints) aren't more visible at range - their cloaks aren't somewhat visible if they are really long, versus those PCs with just shortcloaks.

Not sure the analogy is the same here. I would say it is more like a cloak (long or short), brushing up against a curtain. The curtain would move and the movement would be visible.

 

- E