The myth of Hero

[Cantriped]

In the interest of simplicity, I would have the beginner game only use Adjustment Powers vs Characteristics. Save the other Adjustments for the Advanced Game. That way we can avoid the debates about SFX and Adjustment powers until GM's and players are better versed in the system.

That is a fairly workable solution. However it does relegate Dispel to non-use, and a high fantasy campaign without Dispel Magic just feels wrong somehow.

[TheDarkness]

That is a fairly workable solution. However it does relegate Dispel to non-use, and a high fantasy campaign without Dispel Magic just feels wrong somehow.

Let's assume the builds are sold in tiers. Make the build that no spell exists in tier X that a spell in tier Y cannot dispel. Scale up as we go. I'd have to bone up on dispels to see how that would be ensured.

 

In the builds for dispel, apply the standard effect rule, so that all rolls are always three. Then make sure the amount of drain or dispel is sufficient to dispel ALL applicable spells at a certain tier level of spells. If we want the players to have a roll to make it seem less automatically successful, give it an activation roll.

 

Drain is more difficult, so leaving it as Stat drains only simplifies the whole thing.

[Cantriped]

You'd need 5 Dice of Standard Effect Dispel per 3 DCs (15 APs) worth of dispelled powers. Personally though I fail to see how breaking powers down into tiers is going to save any line-space or decrease the level of complication at all. Either way every single power construct ends up being assigned a numerical value, which you then have to explain because it doesn't exist in the game's core rules.

[TheDarkness]

You'd need 5 Dice of Standard Effect Dispel per 3 DCs (15 APs) worth of dispelled powers. Personally though I fail to see how breaking powers down into tiers is going to save any line-space or decrease the level of complication at all. Either way every single power construct ends up being assigned a numerical value, which you then have to explain because it doesn't exist in the game's core rules.

I'm using the tier reference using magic in a fantasy game as an example. Fantasy games generally have space for spell lists. Since the lists don't need to broken down for class for our purposes(since class largely doesn't exist, only potential archetypes and grey areas between):  there could be multiple types of people with access to the same spell but for different effects or reasons, the space should actually be less than in most fantasy games' spell lists. And games that are simpler than Hero still explain what the spell does. They just don't use a CPA to write it.

 

Mostly, the tier aspect is for balance. Since a system made from the Hero system would not show all the options and how balance is maintained, balance would have to be hardwired into the prebuilds and in what prebuilds are available at what point values of character.

 

The lower level of complication comes from the lack of build notation. It would read like a spell in most games. There just would be no need for the class distinctions. The difference between a true wizard and someone with some magic ability would merely be dedication of points that allowed for an arsenal of spells.

 

Now, with the dispel, yes, but put an activation roll on it, make it have gestures and incantations and whatnot, and just make sure it is powerful enough to dispel the tier of spells it is intended for, which should generally be spells that are in tiers below it, maybe in its own tier, but that would probably be expensive. At least, that's my thought on it.

 

Conversely, each spell could have a "dispel rating" that was actually its APs, and dispel could be straight rolls.

 

As for explaining the point values, how many years has the martial arts system existed in Hero without an explanation of the point values? And Hero gamers care A LOT more about the meanings of those point values than other gamers. Most of the time, it's just, oh, 25 points for this, I've got 25 points, cool.

 

The Hero system was always known for balance, and what we are talking about wouldn't even have the option for the most easily munchkined stuff. As such, a 25 pt. thing will probably be worth its points. If it feels balanced, most players are not going to ask why.

[Cantriped]

As for explaining the point values, how many years has the martial arts system existed in Hero without an explanation of the point values? And Hero gamers care A LOT more about the meanings of those point values than other gamers. Most of the time, it's just, oh, 25 points for this, I've got 25 points, cool.

HERO System Martial Artist has rules for pricing martial arts Game Elements, and writing new martial arts the same way you write new powers. It provides as much explanation for them as the core rules provide regarding the pricing structure of Blast and Hand-To-Hand Attack. Which is to say, very little. The rules simply tell us how much the game designer thinks it is worth, no real explanation is given for why they think it is worth that many APs/CPs.

[massey]

I'll repeat myself here:

"It's funny - we can't even discuss this kind of thing without getting caught up in the kind of complexity we are trying to get rid of. Partly it's a real problem - there are real complications in the system - but part of it is probably an inability to let go of what's not important/relevant."

 

If you are messing with the rules, you are doing it wrong, IMHO. The rules are fine. They just need to be as close to invisible as possible.

 

In this case, we definitely do "want the sort of all-or-nothing effects that D&D is (in)famous for". It's easier, and the target audience are already familiar with it.

 

Nah, you still don't need active points listed.  Let's say that spells are divided into certain, let's call them spell levels.  1st level spells are up to 30 active points.  2nd level spells are up to 45.  3rd level spells are up to 60.  Just for example.

 

Dispel magic -- This spell counters other magical spells.  It will automatically break any enchantment of 1st level.  If the character makes his Magic skill roll, it will break an enchantment of 2nd level.  If he makes it at -2, it will break an enchantment of 3rd level. 

10D6 Dispel, versus any one magical effect (+1/4) standard effect 30 points.  Plus, 5D6 Dispel, standard effect, requires magic skill roll with no AP penalty(-1/4).  Plus 5 more D6, standard effect, requires normal magic skill roll (-1/2).

 

 

You just have to do all the heavy lifting up front.  It's work to disguise the nuts and bolts of the system, but it can be done.

 

Edit:  Looking at it, I think I quoted the wrong original post.  My bad.

[massey]

Let's assume the builds are sold in tiers. Make the build that no spell exists in tier X that a spell in tier Y cannot dispel. Scale up as we go. I'd have to bone up on dispels to see how that would be ensured.

 

In the builds for dispel, apply the standard effect rule, so that all rolls are always three. Then make sure the amount of drain or dispel is sufficient to dispel ALL applicable spells at a certain tier level of spells. If we want the players to have a roll to make it seem less automatically successful, give it an activation roll.

 

Drain is more difficult, so leaving it as Stat drains only simplifies the whole thing.

 

And here TheDarkness beat me to it.

[TheDarkness]

HERO System Martial Artist has rules for pricing martial arts Game Elements, and writing new martial arts the same way you write new powers. It provides as much explanation for them as the core rules provide regarding the pricing structure of Blast and Hand-To-Hand Attack. Which is to say, very little. The rules simply tell us how much the game designer thinks it is worth, no real explanation is given for why they think it is worth that many APs/CPs.

Except, for example, the pricing of powers has been fairly consistent in relation to each other and stats, with adjustments over time for balance based on its effects in game on those things. Those powers have relations to other powers and stats that has driven some changes over time, and the only reason those changes weren't more is because it was a fairly well thought out, balanced system to begin with. And builds made from them are transparent in their costs.

 

The pricing for the exact same effects as are in martial arts is suspiciously different once taken out of the martial arts. There is no explanation for this at all. Yes, there are rules for pricing martial arts, but they are at odds with the rest of the system in many ways. I tend to see the overall Hero system as a system: the martial arts has rules, yes, but I think it is not really a system, but a list one can buy from whose discount penalizes what would likely be better possible builds, especially builds that had more robust interaction with the rest of the system.

 

And writing new martial arts is not the same system as making new powers. It's entirely different. And, for the most part, it is not particularly able to make new martial arts, just very, very similar things to what's already there. It has the flavor of granularity, without the actual granularity.

 

Hidden cost structures is entirely different than anything else in Hero. When the same effect with the same advantages and limitations have a different cost, it must be in a pool. But it can't be, because it's a skill. Yet, for all intents and purposes, it is. Except we don't even know the rules of that pool, how discounts are figured(and I'm willing to bet that from move to move, you'd find the discounts are inconsistent compared with an actual build of that maneuver), and we can only guess how some of the absolute effects are being managed, and those maneuvers would probably be discounted far more than the others.

 

I think that everyone is clear that the maneuvers are SOMEHOW discounted, but no one actually knows how. That's remarkably different than anything else in the system. It's actually weird to look at the setup after working on things in the main system- it's like, suddenly, someone said, you know what, I'm not mathing anymore today, damnit! I know! I'll make some tables. God I miss Rolemaster!

[TheDarkness]

And here TheDarkness beat me to it.

Yeah, but you did an actual build. That's worth way more cred on the Hero forums than timeliness.

 

I hadn't even thought of that setup, it's nice!

[Cantriped]

And writing new martial arts is not the same system as making new powers. It's entirely different. And, for the most part, it is not particularly able to make new martial arts, just very, very similar things to what's already there. It has the flavor of granularity, without the actual granularity.

Having actually used said system to write new martial maneuvers, I can tell you upfront you are incorrect in this regard.

For a teleporting fencer I wrote a martial maneuver which allowed the character to perform a Full-Move and make a Melee Attack in the same phase, without the inclusion of a velocity-based Element (because doing so would prevent the character from using the maneuver with Teleportation, which itself does not have a Velocity Element). There are no existing martial maneuvers even remotely similar to the one I wrote, nor can any of the existing "core" martial maneuvers be used to produce a similar effect.

[TheDarkness]

Having actually used said system to write new martial maneuvers, I can tell you upfront you are incorrect in this regard.

For a teleporting fencer I wrote a martial maneuver which allowed the character to perform a Full-Move and make a Melee Attack in the same phase, without the inclusion of a velocity-based Element (because doing so would prevent the character from using the maneuver with Teleportation, which itself does not have a Velocity Element). There are no existing martial maneuvers even remotely similar to the one I wrote, nor can any of the existing "core" martial maneuvers be used to produce a similar effect.

Oh, I've used it as well.

 

That said, you really can't make a whole lot of things with it that you should be able to. The case above you could. That does not make it the same system as the rest of Hero, it is quite different. And as far as points and their relation to the exact same things in the rest of the game, it does not jibe.

 

If the same sort of thing were done for energy blasters, Hero players would murder people over it.

[TheDarkness]

For example, if I wished to make a counter-punch that was actually a counter-punch, most likely it would require a trigger, that trigger should require an activation roll that was off of a skill, Read Opponent, at which point, DCV is raised and, if the initial punch misses, at the same time, the counter-puncher gets to roll for their counter-punch, possibly with a slight bonus to STR.

 

I'm pretty sure there is no way to model that in the martial arts framework. The counter-punch in the martial arts is not a counter-punch by any definition of the term. There is a term for what its effect is, but its not counter-punch. This would not be a problem, if the martial arts system didn't essentially subsidize its own builds at the cost of making builds outside its framework prohibitively expensive because they can't be in pools(meaning the pools that have actual mechanics behind them), even when they are less absolute in their effect than a similar maneuver made with the martial arts rules.

[Cantriped]

Counter-Punch (1/2 Phase; +2 OCV; +0 DCV; +4d6 Strike, Response to Strike, Requires Condition (Target Missed) (3 CP)  ​A very powerful hand-to-hand attack which can only be made after an opponent has failed to strike you and left themselves wide open.

 

Of course, rules as written you still have to wait until it is your phase, or have a held action in order to use this maneuver. But Hero System Martial Arts also has stipulations for putting advantages on martial maneuvers...

 

True Counter-Punch:  Trigger (Opponent Misses You With A Strike; No Time Action, Resets Automatically; +1) for up to 3 APs of Counter-Punch (3 APs). Cost: 3 CP.

 

To be fair: I used my own short-hand document on building martial arts to construct the above maneuver... and I don't remember what I may have changed, so it may not be 100% legal.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a line of "Powered by Hero" products is a terrific idea, and that's going to be my path from now on.  All my books so far have been the background, setup stuff for a GM to build a campaign with, and the next one will be as well, but once those are done, the campaign setting will come out, God willing, and I'll be using that concept.

 

Hero is powerful and amazing, but its like the programming language for a game.  So we should approach it like that: its like Redneck Rampage, which took the Duke Nukem engine and built a hilarious hillbilly shooter with it.  Or a Skyrim mod that replaces the entire game with a new one.  This uses the Hero Engine.  Here's how it plays.

[TheDarkness]

Counter-Punch (1/2 Phase; +2 OCV; +0 DCV; +4d6 Strike, Response to Strike, Requires Condition (Target Missed) (3 CP)  ​A very powerful hand-to-hand attack which can only be made after an opponent has failed to strike you and left themselves wide open.

 

Of course, rules as written you still have to wait until it is your phase, or have a held action in order to use this maneuver. But Hero System Martial Arts also has stipulations for putting advantages on martial maneuvers...

 

True Counter-Punch:  Trigger (Opponent Misses You With A Strike; No Time Action, Resets Automatically; +1) for up to 3 APs of Counter-Punch (3 APs). Cost: 3 CP.

 

To be fair: I used my own short-hand document on building martial arts to construct the above maneuver... and I don't remember what I may have changed, so it may not be 100% legal.

Thanks for doing the work, I'm sure it's better than what I could do off of memory.

 

While both of those still don't qualify as a counterpunch, in which one set up the opponent missing(so definitely a plus to DCV, which puts the trigger before the attack roll, and should, for balance reasons, probably require the skill roll to second-guess the opponent), the larger issue is, if we accept that, then why could a wizard not build a series of spells, ten of them plus "spirit of the swordsman"(a weapon element), and have it have the same effect and cost the exact same amount as the exact same game effect of martial arts?

 

Further, if we're able to apply advantages, then they're powers anyway, so why can't the framework for the pool be defined and applied to other things than martial arts?

[TheDarkness]

I think a line of "Powered by Hero" products is a terrific idea, and that's going to be my path from now on.  All my books so far have been the background, setup stuff for a GM to build a campaign with, and the next one will be as well, but once those are done, the campaign setting will come out, God willing, and I'll be using that concept.

 

Hero is powerful and amazing, but its like the programming language for a game.  So we should approach it like that: its like Redneck Rampage, which took the Duke Nukem engine and built a hilarious hillbilly shooter with it.  Or a Skyrim mod that replaces the entire game with a new one.  This uses the Hero Engine.  Here's how it plays.

My royalties are one beer.

 

Unless you make billions, then I'm lawyering up. Sorry, it's a dog eat dog world.

[Cantriped]

Thanks for doing the work, I'm sure it's better than what I could do off of memory.

 

While both of those still don't qualify as a counterpunch, in which one set up the opponent missing(so definitely a plus to DCV, which puts the trigger before the attack roll, and should, for balance reasons, probably require the skill roll to second-guess the opponent), the larger issue is, if we accept that, then why could a wizard not build a series of spells, ten of them plus "spirit of the swordsman"(a weapon element), and have it have the same effect and cost the exact same amount as the exact same game effect of martial arts?

 

Further, if we're able to apply advantages, then they're powers anyway, so why can't the framework for the pool be defined and applied to other things than martial arts?

Well, "Martial Arts" as a Game Element is still subject to the rules regarding special effects. Meaning there should be nothing preventing a Wizard from buying a simple Firebolt spell, and ten or more points worth of ranged martial maneuvers which all treat "Firebolt" as their default Weapon Element.

Furthermore, Martial Arts is a combat skill, and "Skill" is an available class of Power. Meaning an entire "Martial Art" package could be constructed as a compound power, and given Gestures, Incantations, Usable By Other, and Time Limit (as an Advantage) to represent a spell which grants the recipient with enhanced combat prowess.

[TheDarkness]

Well, "Martial Arts" as a Game Element is still subject to the rules regarding special effects. Meaning there should be nothing preventing a Wizard from buying a simple Firebolt spell, and ten or more points worth of ranged martial maneuvers which all treat "Firebolt" as their default Weapon Element.

Furthermore, Martial Arts is a combat skill, and "Skill" is an available class of Power. Meaning an entire "Martial Art" package could be constructed as a compound power, and given Gestures, Incantations, Usable By Other, and Time Limit (as an Advantage) to represent a spell which grants the recipient with enhanced combat prowess.

I think I didn't make myself clear.

 

If the wizard has a spell, no incantation required, no gestures, called "Spirit of the Pugilist" that in all ways was exactly the same as strike.

A spell, spirit of the grappler, that was in all ways exactly the same as throw.

The sweeping legs of Wong Feihung.

The snakes deadly fingers.

The sword of dawn.

 

The change environment alone on the throw and sweep would put the cost beyond the exact same list of powers in martial arts. For the exact same thing.

 

But let's say they have them in a pool, martial arts spells. Let's say that that pool actually makes them cheaper than the martial arts.(This won't happen, because no skills in pools, so everything would have to be bonuses to OCV, DCV, DC)

 

In either case, that does not make sense. And, if the latter is true, it almost entirely invalidates the only use of the martial arts system and shows that powers can legitimately be used to emulate skills in pools, and, If the former is true, it shows that the discount is too large for the martial arts system because it gets a free pass on skills in pools. If it is equal, which it isn't, then it all makes sense, but otherwise, there's a disconnect.

 

Where I find it all funny is that the one aspect of building that has the least granularity, martial arts, is really so far down the totem pole in regards to where to focus munchkin powers, and yet it's the second most tightly controlled, right after making sure everyone pays full points for every crafting skill they have. And, to top it off, it has the hint of munchkin by way of some absolute effects as well.

 

If it didn't preclude building martial arts in other ways, it really wouldn't be a problem, it could be a quick way to build a martial artist, but not the only way. Players could choose, either build under this system, or from scratch.

[Cantriped]

If the Wizard's "Spirit of the Pugilist" is identical to a Strike (or for the sake of selecting something he'd actually pay points for, Martial Strike), then it should be purchased as Martial Strike with the Special Effect that it is "spell-casting", rather than "martial arts". The fact that there is a more expensive alternative is irrelevant.

 

Furthermore, you'll find many "disconnects" when you start comparing Skills to Powers and vice versa. For example, Persuasion is much, much cheaper than Mind Control, but when the former works it is largely indistinguishable from the latter in terms of mechanical effect (the NPC does what you want them to do). This doesn't mean that Persuasion is under-priced or that Mind Control is over-priced. They are apples and oranges that just happen to taste the same after you bake them into a pie.

 

In regard to Martial Arts (the Combat Skill, not the Special Effect) the disconnect (though extant) is justified because they aren't in any way intended to be the same thing as Powers. The fact that you can construct a more expensive alternative is still irrelevant because Martial Arts are not intended to replace Combat Skill Levels and Hand-To-Hand Attacks. The Maneuvers System (and by extension all Martial Maneuvers) is intended to act as an addition or ​complement to the Powers system (and to Combat Skill Levels and Hand-To-Hand Attacks). That they are so inexpensive compared to powers is for two reasons:

First: Martial Maneuvers derive most of their Game Elements from the basic Maneuvers which every character receives access to (and therefore already paid for) as part of the Everyman package of abilities which also includes their characteristics, movement modes, and senses.

Second: Even using the rules for designing new Martial Maneuvers, they suffer from severe design restrictions specifically designed to prevent them from overshadowing the Powers System they were intended to complement. These restrictions are intended to prevent you from gaining a game-breaking advantage by investing heavily in Martial Arts, but still reward "martial artists" for investing in them as opposed to using convoluted power constructs to achieve similar effects.

The fundamental concept of martial maneuvers is that they are improvements upon the existing Maneuver System. The Maneuver System gives players access to the ability to Block and Dodge attacks, and Trip or Disarm enemies as Everyman Game Elements precisely so that players do not have to invent convoluted rules constructs to give characters the ability to do things which history and science tells us any humanoid has a given chance of being able to do successfully. As such any point value which could be calculated for martial maneuvers such as Martial Disarm must first have the value or regular Disarm deducted from it; because Disarm is a Game Element which is part of the Everyman package.

[bigdamnhero]

Nah, you still don't need active points listed.  Let's say that spells are divided into certain, let's call them spell levels.  1st level spells are up to 30 active points.  2nd level spells are up to 45.  3rd level spells are up to 60.  Just for example.

I fail to see how listing a spell level is any simpler than listing an AP cost. If your intent is simply to eliminate die rolling, you could accomplish the exact same thing by saying "automatically dispels any spell of less than 30 AP..." etc. (Unless you're just allergic to 2-digit numbers, in which case Hero may not be the game for you anyway. )

 

But hey as long as we're at it, let's eliminate attack rolls: a warrior with Combat Level of 5 automatically hits anyone with a Defense Rating of 3 or lower, and hits a 4 if they make a Weapon Skill Roll...  [/sarcasm]

 

Be careful how far you go with this. There's a reason why diceless RPGs never really caught on.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If I can get my books published, I'll fire you over an Oregon beer with the proceeds, Darkness

[massey]

I fail to see how listing a spell level is any simpler than listing an AP cost. If your intent is simply to eliminate die rolling, you could accomplish the exact same thing by saying "automatically dispels any spell of less than 30 AP..." etc. (Unless you're just allergic to 2-digit numbers, in which case Hero may not be the game for you anyway. )

 

But hey as long as we're at it, let's eliminate attack rolls: a warrior with Combat Level of 5 automatically hits anyone with a Defense Rating of 3 or lower, and hits a 4 if they make a Weapon Skill Roll...  [/sarcasm]

 

Be careful how far you go with this. There's a reason why diceless RPGs never really caught on.

 

The intent is just to show why you don't need to list active points.  There are other ways to do it.  We aren't talking about releasing 7th edition Hero like this.  We're talking about a standalone campaign setting with everything already statted out.  It's Diet Hero, with all the things that a Hero GM would normally decide, already set.

 

Let's say we're going with Aliens Hero, like from the movie with the facehugger and the acid blood.  It isn't necessary to include the Nostromo's DCV, because there is no ship to ship combat in that universe.  It isn't necessary to give the number of active points for the Mind Link that the Aliens have with each other, because no one is going to Suppress or Dispel it.  It isn't necessary to stat out the Transform (or whatever it is) where a host hatches a new Alien.  Just give the rules for how long it takes.

 

You can take out the stuff that doesn't need to be in the rules for that particular genre and setting.  We're talking about creating something with a good presentation.  It still follows the Hero rules at its core, but it isn't scary for new players to look at.

[Chris Goodwin]

In Danger International, gas attacks were not statted out as Xd6, NND, etc. etc.  You were told that a particular gas attack does 4d6 of STUN damage, and that normal PD and ED don't protect against it, but some kind of breathing protection does.  Breathing protection devices weren't statted out as Life Support, they were just described.  

 

And there were no Active or Real Costs given for any weapons or armor or anything.

[zslane]

When Heroic-level games first appeared, it was not deemed necessary to know the point cost of equipment that was bought with money rather than Character Points. General accessibility to such gear was assumed to be available to heroes and villains alike, and so "balance" would all come out in the wash.

 

I'm curious to know how many such campaigns were rendered unplayable by this simplifying assumption. I'm guessing virtually none.

[Chris Goodwin]

When Heroic-level games first appeared, it was not deemed necessary to know the point cost of equipment that was bought with money rather than Character Points. General accessibility to such gear was assumed to be available to heroes and villains alike, and so "balance" would all come out in the wash.

 

I'm curious to know how many such campaigns were rendered unplayable by this simplifying assumption. I'm guessing virtually none.

 

Not a one, in my experience.  We also didn't have characters optimized for damage, or for defenses, or for whatever particular game mechanical niche.  Like, I never remembered building a character to try to hit a damage range; in the heroic games, even Fantasy Hero 1e, we didn't have DC ranges, defense ranges, etc.  You built your character and that was that.  You might have been building a driver, or a hacker, or a faceman; or you might have built a hand-to-hand fighter or a rifleman or a swordsman (but not a Martial Artist, even if he did have Martial Arts).  

 

(Actually there was one Danger International campaign in which we did go way over the top; I wanted to see if I could build a character in DI who could survive jumping out of airplanes without a parachute.  Breakfall 25-, using the Extraordinary Skill rules, 20 BODY, and as much over NCM on PD as I could afford.  That was way outside the norm, though.)