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The myth of Hero


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I believe Tolkien would have argued quite strongly that Ungoliant and Morgoth were unequivocally evil, and that every twisted form of life that Morgoth ever created was evil "by nature", i.e., they were made that way. So any fantasy campaign shaped by Tolkien's writing would have both undeniably good and unquestionably evil beings (and races).

EDIT: to clarify, there will be some hairs split in this post, but mostly to make a case that Tolkein walked an interesting line in his world creation that did interesting things to make it so that, for the most part, there were no creatures with human level intellect that did not choose evil.

 

I think there's a difference, and a few points.

 

Morgoth did not start off as evil, he was an angelic being, like Sauron, who followed pride into evil. His initial acts were not evil, per se, but prideful. Sauron, for a long time, was also not evil by nature.

 

Ungoliant was a created thing, and, if we are to go by the backstory of dragons and fell beasts, was made from other, more ordinary creatures.

 

Orcs were made from humans and elves who were twisted by Morgoth or Sauron or Saruman.

 

There is not a single race in LOTR that was not something else twisted into evil.

 

You'll note that the end of LOTR leads to the next age(fourth? I can't recall) It was a new age because all of the power of angelic beings was then out of the world, or soon to be out(mortal elves, the slow normalizing of the dunedain, who had elvish blood long in their past, the dwarves).

 

This point is hit home more by the difference between Gandalf and Saruman. Each was an angelic being on the order of Sauron, though less powerful, who took on a weak mortal form and was working under a further chosen limit from expressing their full powers because, as all the ages before showed, that power only seemed to make things worse. Saruman chose power, and blinded himself to what ordinary beings could do. Gandalf barely ever expressed power, and helped the most ordinary of creatures win the day.

 

There is no evil by nature creature in LOTR that was not simply something twisted by dark angelic powers. Sure, the orcs were evil. But the orcs were not really a race, they were made out of something that could be good or evil. We have no source material to show they even mated. All references that I'm aware of had them being made.

 

Orcs, goblins, trolls, dragons, fell beasts, wargs.

 

There is also a key element in the work that things made with dark angelic powers actually create nothing unique of their own, only twist what is there. While the brighter angels made elves and dwarves, and Eru decided to let them stand as worthy works, everything Morgoth and Sauron create are merely twisted copied that show the greater virtue of what they are twisted from. Even Morgoth's attempt to subvert the song of creation ends up proving Eru's themes in their attempts at discordance.

 

A LOTR game that has orcs, yes, the orcs will be evil. I just don't see them as an actual race, and suspect that JRR would have been more comfortable with interpretations that the process that made them such was by way of corrupting them into that.

 

A defacto evil race or being that reproduces itself and by its nature has no capacity for good, to our knowledge, does not exist in LOTR. And a being that is evil by nature that was not twisted by angelic powers does not exist at all.

 

Actually, I must correct myself. Ungolliant's offspring. Perhaps the orcs could reproduce.

 

I think both of those points weaken the work, the former, less so(giant spiders could be said to not particularly be placed on the scale of good to evil for wanting to eat dwarves, orcs, however, are, as such, I'll tend to view orcs as created and evil, ungolliant's offspring, imbued with evil power, but not really doing anything a big spider wouldn't do irrespective of moral quantifications).

 

I just find the premise of beings born evil problematic. Tolkein had a bit of an end run around the issue, for the most part. In every other way, he seemed to frame the question of evil with choice.

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I actually think D&Ds divorce from the nuances of Tolkein encourages murder hoboism. When you have defacto evil races that can never be good, what other sensible choice is there but killing them all? Never mind the way experience used to be granted for killing and gold.

 

I'd be curious to go back over the books to see how he actually describes orcs.

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Whether someone turns evil (like Morgoth) or creates evil beings (again, like Morgoth), you still have a world populated by evil creatures (and races). Evil is as evil does, and that's a fantasy trope that Tolkien would recognize quite easily since it is found in the DNA of most of the folklore that Tolkien used as a template for Middle-Earth.

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Any campaign setting I write will necessarily have clear good and evil in it, and prefer the good.  That is the kind of game I prefer to play, think is far more healthy for young people to roleplay in, and I suspect most people prefer.  Others might like a more muddy and ambiguous or villain-centered game.  They can write their own supplements for Hero :)

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I tend to think murky is more a function of how in-depth one tells the moral end of a story.

 

Kept simple, most stories with heroes and villains that are written for children don't actually have evil races.

 

The Harry Potter books appear to have one, the dementors, but they are not particularly central or fleshed out.

 

The trend has been away from that. Half-orc and orc characters, for instance.

 

Conceptually, the concept of evil races has some ugly characteristics. Tolkein got mostly around it by making them twisted by Morgoth, not apparently creatures born by their nature evil.

 

I understand no one else holds this view. I just had to say it.

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Any campaign setting I write will necessarily have clear good and evil in it, and prefer the good.  That is the kind of game I prefer to play, think is far more healthy for young people to roleplay in, and I suspect most people prefer.  Others might like a more muddy and ambiguous or villain-centered game.  They can write their own supplements for Hero :)

I actually am the same, though for adults, I will use more grey areas. Villain centered games, I've only really seen them work for one-offs, and even then, not that great. Once, ran a game where the characters began as basically some low level villains, but it was literally for one scene that acted as a bit of story, but after that one scene, I handed them their actual characters. The scene gave them some info their characters did not have, it was a bit of torture for them.

 

For young people, I would be doubly cautious about having races as naturally evil. That's just me.

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For young people, I would be doubly cautious about having races as naturally evil. That's just me.

 

I don't see a problem with it, if they're evil because they're evil, not just because they look different.  Evil as in "they do evil things and are innately demonically twisted" not "they are strange and we fear them."

 

I don't like the moral soup you get into by having orcs be sometimes evil and sometimes good,  Now when you go into the dungeon you have to do some kind of moral survey to find out if its okay to delve and loot.  I think most people are like me, and play these games to get away from the confusion and gut wrenching difficulties of life.  They want black hats to shoot at, and not worry if that was just a kid with a squirt gun.

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I don't think its necessary to make Hero's products simpler than every other game published to attract players.  All role playing games by their very nature involve a certain minimum level of complexity.  D&D is hardly a super simple game to run or play and is stil the most popular RPG in the world.

 

Yes, but D&D doesn't count. It can get away with being super complicated because apparently everyone (disclaimer to acknowledge exaggeration for effect) wants to play D&D, always, even when it's called Pathfinder.

In other words, you can sell D&D no matter how complicated you make it because being D&D trumps everything.

 

Outside of D&D, complexity is a harder sell. I don't think it's necessary to make Hero "simpler than every other game published to attract players." I do think that if you want to attract players, and you're NOT D&D, being simpler than D&D might help.

 

 

I believe Tolkien would have argued quite strongly that Ungoliant and Morgoth were unequivocally evil, and that every twisted form of life that Morgoth ever created was evil "by nature", i.e., they were made that way. So any fantasy campaign shaped by Tolkien's writing would have both undeniably good and unquestionably evil beings (and races).

 

I don't have a citation, but I have read where Tolkien went on record as saying even an Orc could possibly be redeemed. And Melkor is essentially Satan, but consider that Tolkien wrote from a Christian, and specifically Catholic, perspective, in which Satan is originally an angel, not something that was always evil.

 

In the Silmarilion, even when Morgoth (not yet called that) introduces his great Discord into the divine music the Creator propounded, the Creator declares even from this attempted discord may flow beauty and good. This concert of the entire heavenly choir is either the template from which the universe, including Middle Earth, and thus including Orcs, was created, or the song itself was the act of that creation (I would say either interpretation makes sense, and either way, you get the same implication - even something that starts out twisted, like an Orc, can be turned to good.)

 

But aren't we wandering far off topic now?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks, what was the topic again?

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I actually think D&Ds divorce from the nuances of Tolkein encourages murder hoboism. When you have defacto evil races that can never be good, what other sensible choice is there but killing them all? Never mind the way experience used to be granted for killing and gold.

 

I'd be curious to go back over the books to see how he actually describes orcs.

D&D was designed by Wargaming Geeks to be a fun, light romp though the GM's Dungeon. It's why so many of the original Modules were PC Meatgrinders. The original game was all about the gm coming up with amusing ways to kill PCs. With everyone laughing when the Party TPKs. Lots of people still play in this way treating characters as little more than playing pieces. The first evolution of the game came with players who Identified with their characters. Then the meat grinder Dungeons because something that wasn't fun for them. Gamers schismed into the Murderhobo players who also spawned the Montie Haul style of gaming (ie kill the monsters for great treasure, rinse/repeat) and the earlier solve puzzles and get killed in amusing ways for the lulz.

 

You also started to see the Players and GMs that started to be more concerned about storylines and character development (not just power development, but actual mental, personality etc development as the PC interacted with the Plotlines of the GMs.)

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I don't see a problem with it, if they're evil because they're evil, not just because they look different.  Evil as in "they do evil things and are innately demonically twisted" not "they are strange and we fear them."

 

I don't like the moral soup you get into by having orcs be sometimes evil and sometimes good,  Now when you go into the dungeon you have to do some kind of moral survey to find out if its okay to delve and loot.  I think most people are like me, and play these games to get away from the confusion and gut wrenching difficulties of life.  They want black hats to shoot at, and not worry if that was just a kid with a squirt gun.

I actually like that question. Are the Orcs raiding humans because they are want the humans land, money and slaves or is it because something is driving them into human lands? I hate the simplicity of "X race is inherently evil". I think that's totally boring. I don't run my D&D games that way and I don't run my Fantasy Hero Games that way. I like challenging my players on more levels than just difficult combats. Black and White worlds are boring. Probably why I tend to shy away from Champions villians that are "Evil" without anything else to give that evil reason.

 

BTW If I want to kill lots of NPCs for the Lulz, then I will play videogames. When I get together for a PnP RPG, I want something a bit more complicated and nuanced. I can't casually play at the drop of the hat anymore. So I want those games to actually be quality games that I Can't get from other Media.

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I think that we have all come to the conclusion that you can't turn hero into GURPS where the construction of every power is hidden. esp for Fantasy games where you need to see the build for other abilities to work correctly in the system. You CAN have pregenerated abilities that players can choose from a menu to make Character Gen easier.

Also in games where equipment is important, you CAN hide most of the complexity from players. They really don't need to know that their M82 Barrett Sniper Rifle with the Telescopic nightvision scope is 100active points (just pulling a number, don't get caught up on this). Made up with 3 abilities etc. They just want to see Barrett .50 Sniper Rifle +1 OCV +2 RM, 3d6 RKA +1 Stun Multiple, 6 Shots. StrMin 15  Telescopic Scope +2 OCV, +6 RM.   IN this case it's assumed people know OAF Gun, Real Weapon, Charges 6, etc.

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I don't see a problem with it, if they're evil because they're evil, not just because they look different.  Evil as in "they do evil things and are innately demonically twisted" not "they are strange and we fear them."

 

I don't like the moral soup you get into by having orcs be sometimes evil and sometimes good,  Now when you go into the dungeon you have to do some kind of moral survey to find out if its okay to delve and loot.  I think most people are like me, and play these games to get away from the confusion and gut wrenching difficulties of life.  They want black hats to shoot at, and not worry if that was just a kid with a squirt gun.

I'm not trying to convince you here in this post, just stating my view, to make myself clear. We each probably run the kinds of games that we enjoy, and probably each don't run things that entirely differently from each other, if we actually examine what we do(versus what we debate about in our thread derailing shenanigans).

 

Not having evil races doesn't prevent us from having black hats. The question is, when they go into the dungeon, what rationale does the DM give? If it is, for example, a band of goblins has taken this mine and reigned terror around it, they have black hats, no problem.

 

But, having a preponderance of evil races does, imo, limit role play. When you know all of race X are evil, your interactions with them are limited to threatening them, tricking them, and little else. It precludes me from giving the PCs information before they go to our goblin infested mine that makes them think that something else drove the goblins out of their normal caves, rumors of something more interesting than goblins in a mine.

 

Just because races aren't evil doesn't mean that the morality of it must be depicted in a complex manner. Comic books are predominantly aimed towards younger people, and the villains are constantly becoming heroes. Now, some comics have some 'evil' races, usually also stupid beings, but I tend to find those also uninteresting and of questionable value. I avoid making a value in my games of PCs gaining feelings of power through having their characters kill creatures that are, as is, depicted as sub-human. Especially younger players.

 

Now, I can understand if you feel I am totally overthinking this, and it would not be the first time that was suggested of me!

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I think that we have all come to the conclusion that you can't turn hero into GURPS where the construction of every power is hidden. esp for Fantasy games where you need to see the build for other abilities to work correctly in the system. You CAN have pregenerated abilities that players can choose from a menu to make Character Gen easier.

 

 

Hero itself, no, you are correct, those things need to be there.

 

A game Powered by Hero can have that complexity hidden and powers listed as text, not build notation, provided that the comparative values that could come into play are hardwired in. The previous build for dispel, which I need to go back and find, actually did this quite well. It wouldn't be easy, but it sounds like fun...

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The question posed was, "What do members think would be the tropes of fantasy that would gain the most advantages, as far as being depictions of the tropes, versus depictions that became common through previous role playing games?" It wasn't, "How do you like to run your fantasy campaigns?"

 

The most recognizable depictions of fantasy tropes come from the most recognized fantasy literature, which if we examine what inspired RPGs in the first place is literature from writers like Howard, Tolkien, Leiber, and so on. Evil was evil and you weren't left with any doubt about it. As for Melkor, he didn't start out evil, but he chose the path of evil and became Morgoth, and everything he created became imprinted with that evil. He poured all his hatred and rage and resentment into his creations. Regardless of Tolkien's musings on the metaphysical possibilities of the universe, the stories we were actually given, and which shaped the fantasy tropes sought after in the above question, yielded a template whereby evil races are simply black-hat evil and that's that.

 

So if you want to preserve the tropes of fantasy as most RPGers would recognize them, presumably for a Powered by Hero product, then irredeemably evil creatures and races is unquestionably one of them, no matter how unsophisticated or distasteful that may seem by more modern literary (or RPG) standards.

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I'm trying to introduce my D&D 5e group to Hero.  They've pretty much all said no to fantasy, because if we're going to play the same game, why are we going to switch systems?  And I see their point.  

 

So for fantasy, we're stuck somewhere between the familiar but ubiquitous and the unique but inscrutable.  How to reconcile this?

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I'm trying to introduce my D&D 5e group to Hero.  They've pretty much all said no to fantasy, because if we're going to play the same game, why are we going to switch systems?  And I see their point.  

 

So for fantasy, we're stuck somewhere between the familiar but ubiquitous and the unique but inscrutable.  How to reconcile this?

Fantasy is a broad genre, perhaps you can persuade them to try a fantasy genre in HERO that DnD 5th cannot replicate. For example:

Cross-worlds Fantasy: They play a SWAT team summoned to a high fantasy world (with all of their high tech gear).

Urban Fantasy: Aka Dresden File, or Harry Potter.

Low-Fantasy/Historical Fantasy: Aka Fantasy with little or no Magic.

Science Fantasy: aka Spelljammer! Play the crew of a dimension hopping vessel going on wacky adventures in the Elemental Plane of Wine & Cheese.

Steampunk Fantasy: technically a part of Star HERO... but mislabled in my opinion.

 

As an alternative genre, you could run straight up Champions.

Superheroes is more or less what HERO was intended to let you play. There is a simple purity in playing a comic-book costumed crime-fighter. It becomes appealing when the players realize they don't have to jump through hoops to play a character like their favorite superheroes... that the system just lets them do that (fairly) easily. Plus it is such a deviation from Fantasy tropes that it really lets the players feel like they are trying something new... as opposed to just killing orcs with a different set of dice.

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The question posed was, "What do members think would be the tropes of fantasy that would gain the most advantages, as far as being depictions of the tropes, versus depictions that became common through previous role playing games?" It wasn't, "How do you like to run your fantasy campaigns?"

 

The most recognizable depictions of fantasy tropes come from the most recognized fantasy literature, which if we examine what inspired RPGs in the first place is literature from writers like Howard, Tolkien, Leiber, and so on. Evil was evil and you weren't left with any doubt about it. As for Melkor, he didn't start out evil, but he chose the path of evil and became Morgoth, and everything he created became imprinted with that evil. He poured all his hatred and rage and resentment into his creations. Regardless of Tolkien's musings on the metaphysical possibilities of the universe, the stories we were actually given, and which shaped the fantasy tropes sought after in the above question, yielded a template whereby evil races are simply black-hat evil and that's that.

 

So if you want to preserve the tropes of fantasy as most RPGers would recognize them, presumably for a Powered by Hero product, then irredeemably evil creatures and races is unquestionably one of them, no matter how unsophisticated or distasteful that may seem by more modern literary (or RPG) standards.

Like Chris pointed out, if they want to play something like D&D they will play D&D (or a direct clone). What Hero has to offer players is more customizable character and foes that aren't cookie cutters of one another. Any Fantasy Hero should be built with standard fantasy Races and Pseudo-medieval culture. Having those things in place gives people what they expect from a fantasy game. 

 

All of the standard Fantasy tropes work fine even with "non standard" motivations. ie Races that aren't automatically evil. It would be nice to see the human kingdom that wasn't evil because it consorted with Demons, but who wanted to eliminate another Civilization and started worshipping demons to gain the power to get advantage. Or the Orc Tribe that raids human settlements because they are resource starved, or just that their civilization thinks that war if the pinnacle of valor and go to war with their neighbors to prove their prowess (and the lootz are good too). Then GM's can either go simple or embrace the more complex motivations.

 

Once people get used to Hero's brand of complexity, they will see how much nicer it is. In many ways it's a much simpler System than Pathfinder.

 

Possible marketing:

"Are you tired of playing someone else's vision of your character? Would you like to play the character that you envision in YOUR head? Play Fantasy Hero, where you decide everything about your character."

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The question posed was, "What do members think would be the tropes of fantasy that would gain the most advantages, as far as being depictions of the tropes, versus depictions that became common through previous role playing games?" It wasn't, "How do you like to run your fantasy campaigns?"

 

The most recognizable depictions of fantasy tropes come from the most recognized fantasy literature, which if we examine what inspired RPGs in the first place is literature from writers like Howard, Tolkien, Leiber, and so on. Evil was evil and you weren't left with any doubt about it. As for Melkor, he didn't start out evil, but he chose the path of evil and became Morgoth, and everything he created became imprinted with that evil. He poured all his hatred and rage and resentment into his creations. Regardless of Tolkien's musings on the metaphysical possibilities of the universe, the stories we were actually given, and which shaped the fantasy tropes sought after in the above question, yielded a template whereby evil races are simply black-hat evil and that's that.

 

So if you want to preserve the tropes of fantasy as most RPGers would recognize them, presumably for a Powered by Hero product, then irredeemably evil creatures and races is unquestionably one of them, no matter how unsophisticated or distasteful that may seem by more modern literary (or RPG) standards.

Tolkein's work did not limit the narrow confines of what made things evil to metaphysical musings. The process of twisting things to evil is actually only visible in one case: the ring's influence. How it twisted was by the choice of those around it. Each that succumbed to desire for power or for its beauty were twisted by it. Those who accepted it as a burden still were harmed, but not twisted. We even see Gollum making the choice, for a period, to try to be good.

 

As for orcs, we only know that they were twisted. Given that every other dark magic we see in the stories working by way of turning people away from good, it is safer to surmise that the orcs were twisted away from good as well, in the process that also twisted them.

 

Moorcock is a canonical example of the genre lacking clear blackhats. Even when we have them, they don't end up doing as much damage as the Hero himself.

 

And if we're providing clear blackhats for young people to have simple morality in their story, Howard is right out the window. Sure, the villains are clear: they are the people Conan kills.

 

Further, modern gamers who play fantasy have a much larger canonical list than those we had, so the authors we associate with it would not be a complete list for them, nor would their tropes stand.

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The thing is, we're in a different publishing era that Hero needs to be taking advantage of.

 

Its not feasible to print non-winning big sellers for a game company any longer in the old model, where you print 50000 copies and send them to game stores hoping they sell.  You can't spend all that money and have the books lying around in a warehouse hoping for orders.  Print is expensive, so that "Western Hero" you published is not going to have enough demand to justify the cost of writing and publishing.

 

But we don't live in that era any longer.  The model we now live in allows very niche, quirky, interesting, and specific things to be printed.  Its free to list stuff as a pdf, and the profit margins are much higher.  With print on demand, you don't need to have a warehouse full of books, you can print them and get them to people without needing to carry stacks of books hoping they sell.

 

And that's big, big news for gaming companies, particularly one as flexible and interesting as Hero.  All that's needed is people to write these supplements and get them out.

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But we don't live in that era any longer.  The model we now live in allows very niche, quirky, interesting, and specific things to be printed.  Its free to list stuff as a pdf, and the profit margins are much higher.  With print on demand, you don't need to have a warehouse full of books, you can print them and get them to people without needing to carry stacks of books hoping they sell.

 

And that's big, big news for gaming companies, particularly one as flexible and interesting as Hero.  All that's needed is people to write these supplements and get them out.

 

There's also the Patreon model. For a small ($2-4) recurring charge, you get new content on a regular basis. It seems to be working very well for FATE.

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And we've seen a bunch of Hero books get funded on kickstarter: Fantasy Hero Complete, Larger than Life, Strike Force, Golden Age Champions, and more on the way.

 

Its foolish to use the old publishing system for gaming books.  We live in a niche interest world, and that's where Hero should shine.

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Like Chris pointed out, if they want to play something like D&D they will play D&D (or a direct clone). What Hero has to offer players is more customizable character and foes that aren't cookie cutters of one another. Any Fantasy Hero should be built with standard fantasy Races and Pseudo-medieval culture. Having those things in place gives people what they expect from a fantasy game. 

 

All of the standard Fantasy tropes work fine even with "non standard" motivations. ie Races that aren't automatically evil. It would be nice to see the human kingdom that wasn't evil because it consorted with Demons, but who wanted to eliminate another Civilization and started worshipping demons to gain the power to get advantage. Or the Orc Tribe that raids human settlements because they are resource starved, or just that their civilization thinks that war if the pinnacle of valor and go to war with their neighbors to prove their prowess (and the lootz are good too). Then GM's can either go simple or embrace the more complex motivations.

 

Once people get used to Hero's brand of complexity, they will see how much nicer it is. In many ways it's a much simpler System than Pathfinder.

 

Possible marketing:

"Are you tired of playing someone else's vision of your character? Would you like to play the character that you envision in YOUR head? Play Fantasy Hero, where you decide everything about your character."

 

That's really just a matter of personal preference though.

 

I remember my pre-Hero days clearly.  I'd look at a game system, and I'd be like "what does being an elf give you?"  In Hero, being an elf doesn't give you anything.  It doesn't make you faster, it doesn't let you see in the dark, it doesn't make you better with a longsword.  It took me a long time to wrap my head around that.  A lot of players still don't get it.  In Hero, you can have a fat elf who is clumsy, doesn't have an extended lifespan, doesn't know magic, isn't good with a bow, and doesn't have pointed ears.  And while that may better fit your vision of the character, it doesn't do a lot for helping to establish the feel of the world.

 

A lot of roleplayers are *not* tired of playing someone else's vision of their character.  They just want to play an elf.  And if you've got an interesting description for the background of elves in your world, they're cool with that.

 

It's why most people use Windows instead of Linux.  And why they buy a car instead of building one.

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I remember my pre-Hero days clearly.  I'd look at a game system, and I'd be like "what does being an elf give you?"  In Hero, being an elf doesn't give you anything

 

That's not actually true.  Being an elf gives you what the GM designs his world to have elves give you.  Fantasy Hero and Fantasy Hero Complete both give elf racial package suggestions with various built-in abilities.

 

Don't think of Hero as Linux. Think of it as the programming behind Windows.  The GM builds your OS and you play the game in that setting.

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That's not actually true.  Being an elf gives you waht the Gm designs his world to have elves give you.  Fantasy Hero an Fantasy Hero Complete both give elf racial package suggestions with various built-in abilities.

 

Don't think of Hero as Linux. Think of it as the programming behind Windows.  The GM builds your OS and you play the game in that setting.

 

Most of the time, the GM doesn't do that work though.  Other game systems have that stuff pre-built.  That's what part of this thread has been about.  One of the big failures of Hero marketing is not having that stuff ready to go.

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