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Hyper-Man

Heroic END, Weapon STR Minimums, Multiple Attack, Autofire and GUNS

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The recent Champions forum thread HELP! Is this power/maneuver combo OP (over powered) started me thinking about a similar setup I had created for John Wick for 6e

 

Specifically, I started thinking about the END costs in a Heroic level game where STR costs 1 END per 5 points of STR used.  So a weapon that has a STR Minimum of 10 means at least 2 END per attack made with it.  Now, if the question was involving swinging an HTH weapon like a sword or a staff that seems to make sense.  Add in the rules for Multiple Attack (the 6e version of Sweep) and a character making multiple attacks per Phase can very quickly spend more END than their RECovery in less than a TURN.  But what about when using Ranged weapons like guns where the STR Minimum doesn't do anything that actually affects damage but is primarily about 'controlling the weapon when fired'? 

 

AFAIK, the use of Multiple Attack with a gun still means paying END for all attack attempts. So given a typical 9mm handgun with a 9-10 STR minimum means 2 END per shot fired.  And what about Autofire as a Naked Advantage only with guns?  Does that still require the 2 END per shot fired?

 

Anyway, to address those concerns I added the following two upgrades to the John Wick build linked to above:

4 Shooting Stances: Reduced Endurance (0 END; Naked Advantage; +1/2) for up to 17 Active Points of STR (8 Active Points); Limited Power - Only for firearm STR Minimums (-1)
[Notes: STR normally costs 1 END per 5 STR used in Heroic games. Examples include: C.A.R. System (Center Axis Relock), Weaver Stance and Isosceles Stance.] - END=0

 

I also upgraded Reduced Endurance to 0 END on the following.
17 Quick Fire: Autofire (3 shots; Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (30 Active Points); OIF (Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)
[Notes: Autofire imposes an additional +5 STR Minimum to any weapon used. This can be offset by using the Brace Maneuver.] - END=0

 

Do these seem like overkill?

 

Comments welcome.

 

:)

HM

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I like it. And in a campaign that hero's used lots of guns I would approve it. Otherwise (in Champs for instance or even Dark Champs without many heros who use guns) I would hand wave it.

 

- E

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Are you certain what you want is not already worked into the STR Minimum rules?

 

I had to re-read the part myself, but there is a bunch of modifiers for the STR Minimum:

"

Using Two Hands: If a character uses two hands to
wield a weapon that normally only requires one,
reduce the weapon’s STR Minimum by 3.

Using One Hand: If a character uses a one-and-a
half-handed weapon with one hand, add +2 to the
STR Minimum (or, in the case of guns and other
weapons for which the STR Minimum doesn’t
affect damage, impose a -1 OCV penalty for
one-handed use). If he uses a two-handed weapon
with one hand, add +3 to the STR Minimum (or
impose a -2 OCV penalty for guns and the like).

Autofre: Autofre weapons have a +5 STR
Minimum unless fred in single-shot mode (or
thrown one at a time).

Bipod: A weapon fred from a bipod has a -10 STR
Minimum. (A weapon which can only be fred
from a weapons mount shouldn’t be built with
STR Minimum at all.)

Braced: When a character Braces (see 6E2 60)
while using a Ranged weapon, subtract 5 from the
weapon’s STR Min.

"

At least for Firearms (Does not add DC from STR), as I see it the +5 STR replaces the normal rule of "Autofire STR used END costs per shoot".

 

We have 4 very different cases, I think:

STR Minimum, STR can add damage:

You pay the END for used STR, per the usual rules of "only pay once".

 

STR Minimum, STR can add damage with Naked Autofire:

You would pay the Endurance per Shoot. After all, you also add damage per shoot. STR Minimum primarily shifts how much damage you can Add from STR and gives you a penalty if you got less then that. It does not change that you still could add Damage per excess STR.

 

STR Minimum, STR does not add to damage:

You pay the STR you need to fire the weapon, per the usual rules for "minimal STR use/pay only once for STR".

 

STR Minimum, STR does not add to DC plus Naked Autofire or Innate Autofire:

I would say that only costs you the flat +5 for using the Weapon that way once. You do not add STR to DC, so I do not see why Multiplying the STR cost would be nessesary. The weapon is slighly harder to control (+5 STR Minimum)

 

Multiple Attack:

I consider Multiple Attack simply a form of "Ad-Hoc Autofire". The CV modifiers are close enough, the use case similar enough (attacking same target multiple times or multiple targets). So whatever you rule for AF, should apply to Multiple Attack. And vice versa.

I am also not sure if we should allow combining Autofire and Multiple Attack. Stuff is getting wierd quickly in that area.

 

 

Note that Autofire advantage always includes some edge cases:

For example all Melee weapons are built with the +1/2 Version of "Lowered END cost". With a Naked Autofire Advantage, you would thus technically have to pay 1/2 END per shoot for the attack power you use.

I asked Steve Long years ago about this and I think is answer was to "let 5 be odd and just 0 END stand". It would be between 2 and 5 END per use if you do not.
A lot more with Handguns not inlcuding the +1 Version of 0 END, due to the much higher AP (all damage must come from the weapon itself).

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Guns aren't typically built with Reduced END.  Charges are used instead.  The END costs are only derived from the STR Minimums.

 

I was already aware of the affects of the number of hands used.  It still doesn't change the ultimate question though.  Say a character is using 2 hands to fire a 1 handed pistol with normal STR Minimum of 8. The rules in 6e2 page state that using 2 hands reduces the STR Minimum by 3.  The final result is a 5 STR Minimum.  Applying Reduced Endurance 1/2 END would not affect the minimum 1 END in a Heroic level game. This still means that IF the END is paid 'per shot fired' when using Multiple Attack, THEN fairly high END costs can accumulate quickly.

 

HM

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...Specifically, I started thinking about the END costs in a Heroic level game where STR costs 1 END per 5 points of STR used.  So a weapon that has a STR Minimum of 10 means at least 2 END per attack made with it...

You only pay END for your STR once per Phase​, regardless of how many times/ways you used your Strength that phase (CC 15). So a weapon with STR Min (10) costs 2 END, regardless of what kind of weapon it is, or how many attacks you make with it. It doesn't matter if the weapon has (or gains) Autofire, or is used in a Multiple Attack, the END cost from STR is still only 2.

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You only pay END for your STR once per Phase​, regardless of how many times/ways you used your Strength that phase (CC 15). So a weapon with STR Min (10) costs 2 END, regardless of what kind of weapon it is, or how many attacks you make with it. It doesn't matter if the weapon has (or gains) Autofire, or is used in a Multiple Attack, the END cost from STR is still only 2.

It's still a bit wierd that shooting an assault rifle could be more tiring than firing a pistol, and both equally as fatiguing as engaging in armed melee combat.

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I can speak from some experience in this regard. I have been trained in swordsmanship, and have fired both pistols and rifles on numerous occasions. They all definitely cost END to use. Rifles somewhat more so than pistols, and either in the same range as melee weapons. A really strong or fit person might not notice the difference so much, but I'm neither large nor athletic.

 

In the case of either pistols or rifles, you are fighting against recoil. Some pistols kick like a mule. Holding yourself properly to absorb recoil while firing is tiring regardless of the type of firearm used. In addition, while most rifles suffer somewhat less recoil, they are tiring just to hold at attention due to their awkward shape and distribution of weight.

 

In the case of melee weapons, the actual amount of energy expended putting it in motion is fairly trivial, melee weapons designed for actual combat are usually fairly well balanced. So if you've ever swung a sword around you might get the impression that they aren't that tiring to use. The issue is bracing yourself to absorb the recoil of actually hitting a resisting object without knocking your weapon out of hand is about as bad as firearm recoil. Like with rifles, larger/heavier melee weapons suffer less recoil from the impact, but are harder to hold at attention.

 

Now, HERO doesn't accurately reflect the reality that just holding a weapon at attention consumes energy (END), and the larger or more unbalanced the weapon, the more energy required to hold it in a useful position. That is okay, it would be too much extra book keeping anyway. I feel like having those larger/heavier weapons cost more STR to use (and thus more END per phase they are used) is a fairly good balancing mechanism. It accurately reflects the "cinematic reality" that stronger heroes typically use larger/heavier weapons, and that light/weak people (like me) typically prefer smaller/lighter weapons.

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I can speak from some experience in this regard. I have been trained in swordsmanship, and have fired both pistols and rifles on numerous occasions. They all definitely cost END to use. Rifles somewhat more so than pistols, and either in the same range as melee weapons. A really strong or fit person might not notice the difference so much, but I'm neither large nor athletic.

I can confirm that wielding a Melee weapon - even a twohanded sword - is not as tiring as one might think. A lot of the training is about negating the weight using the weapons own innertia/mass as part of the attack moves.

It should actually compare well to the STR needed to counter a weapons recoil.

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You only pay END for your STR once per Phase​, regardless of how many times/ways you used your Strength that phase (CC 15). So a weapon with STR Min (10) costs 2 END, regardless of what kind of weapon it is, or how many attacks you make with it. It doesn't matter if the weapon has (or gains) Autofire, or is used in a Multiple Attack, the END cost from STR is still only 2.

 

From Hero System 6e1 page 41:

STRENGTH (STR)

Strength represents a character’s raw physical power: how much damage he does in HTH Combat; how much he can lift and carry, how far he can throw things; and so forth. STR has a Base Value of 10; each additional +1 point of STR costs 1 Character Point. Every +5 Character Points represents +1d6 damage and a doubling of the character’s lifting capacity.

 

Using STR costs END — 1 END per 10 points of STR used in most cases (as an optional rule, some Heroic campaigns charge 1 END per 5 STR used, due to the prevalence of armed combat in those genres). However, a character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in a single Phase. For example, suppose a character has STR 50. If he uses Casual STR (see 6E1 131) to break out of a Grab, then uses STR to punch an enemy for 10d6 damage in that same Phase, he only pays 5 END, even though he’s used his STR in two different ways that Phase. However, this rule does not apply to situations or game elements that allow a character to make two or more STR-based attacks in a Phase (such as an Autofire HA, or the Multiple Attack Combat Maneuver). In that case,the character has to pay END for his STR once for each attack.

 

From CC page 15:

STR AND ENDURANCE

STR costs Endurance to use. A character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in the Phase, as long as no more than one of those ways is a STR-based attack; he must still pay END for each STR-based attack separately.

 

Example: Ironclad (STR 60) uses his STR to break out of an Entangle, then uses it to punch a foe for 12d6 in the same Phase. This costs him 6 END total; even though he used his STR two different ways, only the punch was an attack. On the next Phase, he uses Multiple Attack to punch two foes for 12d6 each. This costs him 12 END, because both uses of STR are attacks.

 

 

:)

HM

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Huh... I stand corrected! I looked, but I did not see. Next time I should fact-check myself before I fact-wreck myself. Sorry for posting erroneous information. As penance I'll be spending the rest of the night rereading my copies of CC/FHC.

 

In that case, no, your powers do not seem to be overkill. They appear to perfectly plug game element you are taking issue with in the OP (spending END multiple times to use autofire ranged attacks with a STR Min).

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I think I found my answer.

 

From 6e2 page 207:

Firearms
More technically known as “non-musclepowered ranged weapons,” these weapons use gunpowder or other means to fire a projectile or energy beam at the target.

 

 

So my Reduced END addition for STR may not be needed. There is still some value applying it to the Naked Autofire though.

 

I'll still ask Mr. Long though.

 

:)

HM

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I remmebere that part about "Autofire and Multiple Attack" too, was just too lazy to find the rule :)

But now that it is here, I want to point one part out:
"However, this rule does not apply to situations or game elements that allow a character to make two or more STR-based attacks in a Phase (such as an Autofire HA, or the Multiple Attack Combat Maneuver). In that case,the character has to pay END for his STR once for each attack."

"STR costs Endurance to use. A character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in the Phase, as long as no more than one of those ways is a STR-based attack; he must still pay END for each STR-based attack separately."

I do not consider "weapons that do not add Damage from excesss STR" to be "STR-based attacks". That would mean what I wrote above seems to fit to raw quite nicely:
If you add STR, you pay end for STR for each attack.

If you do not add STR, you only pay STR once. With the "Autofire Surcharge" on STR Minimum, perhaps.

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Well, Steve's answer in the Rules Forum just confirmed that the END for STR Minimums is still paid for each shot fired. GM's are of course welcome to change this. But if it is enforced then my proposed builds above would likely be needed.

 

HM

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Well, Steve's answer in the Rules Forum just confirmed that the END for STR Minimums is still paid for each shot fired. GM's are of course welcome to change this. But if it is enforced then my proposed builds above would likely be needed.

 

HM

Good to know.

 

But I just remmbered: Are you certain the +1/2 version of Reduced END would cut it here? After all this is concerning END use from STR with a Autofire Attack. Reduced Endurance and Autofire usually means you have half the effectiveness/double the cost of Reduced Endurance Cost.

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Please read the builds in the original post one more time.

The first is 0 END on STR. Only usable for meeting STR Minimums for Guns.

The second is a Naked Autofire usable with semi-automatic small arms. There is no END cost for using guns except for meeting the STR minimum which was dealt with in the first build.  There is a NEW END cost due to it being a Naked Advantage but that was dealt with by paying for the full Autofire version of Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1).

Between the two builds the character should not have to spend any END on the use of Guns.

HM

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I personally believe Steve's answer is a little overboard considering the text I quoted as well as the description of the weapon categories themselves. He also gave an answer regarding the combination of Passing Strike (a kind of martial Move By) and an Autofire HA stating that Rapid Autofire would be required and I cannot find anything to support that in the text. I'm going to chalk up both answers to Steve not having full access to his books as he notes in both threads.

 

:)

HM

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For those who are interested, here are the questions and answers from my recent Rules Forum post:

END cost for Multiple Attack with a gun with a STR Minimum

 

Q:

Hi Steve,

 

While researching some heroic level gun use abilities in this thread I ran into a question I am not sure about.

 

Does the END cost of meeting the STR Minimum for *non-musclepowered ranged weapons (guns) mean the character only pays END once per Phase when using them regardless of whether a Multiple Attack or Autofire is also being used with the gun?

 

*Wording used in 6e2 page 207

 

Same question worded a different way:

Does having a STR Minimum have a direct bearing on determining if using a weapon is considered a **STR-based attack?

 

**Wording used in 6e1 page 41

 

If the answer to both is NO, then is it safe to assume that firing a bow (a musclepowered ranged weapon) Does cost END per shot but does not get any additional Limitation for this?

 

Thanks!

 

HM

 

A:

I don’t currently have access to all of my books and materials, which have been packed up as part of my home renovation project, so I reserve the right to edit or change this answer at a future time. ;)
 
As noted on 6E2 199, wielding weapons built as Equipment costs END based on the STR used to wield them. A character using Multiple Attack (6E2 73) or Autofire (6E1 327) has to pay END/Charges for each “shot” taken, and the STR rules specifically note that this applies to “STR-based attacks” such as Autofire HA or a Multiple Attack (6E1 41). Thus, a character firing a gun (to use your example) using Multiple Attack or Autofire in a campaign where he’s using weapons obtained as Equipment would pay END for the STR used for each shot. (Though of course the GM’s free to change that if he prefers some other method.)
 
“STR-based attack” isn’t a term of art; it’s really just shorthand for “any attack involving STR, or to which STR adds damage.” I’ll leave it up to the wisdom of the GM to define whether a given attack is “STR-based” for his campaign. :)

 

HM

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I'm not sure I'd say that shooting stances reduce END. They use a lot of small, weak muscles to stabilize against recoil to allow faster followup shots. That can be a little tiring in my experience.

 

Here's a video from Jerry Mikulec that covers handgun grips/stances pretty well. IIRC, he covers some aspects of reducing muscle strain, which could relate to the issue of END cost in Hero:

 

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Thanks for this topic.  I now realize that in my game I need to increase my character`s STR before I upgrade their weapon to have Autofire, otherwise they won`t have the STR needed to control their machine pistol.

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I would define a shooting stance as an OCV bonus or, better yet, a means of negating recoil penalties.

 

To go back to the END question--I kind of have a problem with modern firearms costing END at all.  Especially on autofire.  I'm not at risk of passing out if I run a few mags through an assault rifle at full auto.  The STR Min in these cases would have more to do with accuracy and with reset time after each shot.  I'd seriously buy these down to 0 END if they aren't already.

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I would define a shooting stance as an OCV bonus or, better yet, a means of negating recoil penalties.

 

To go back to the END question--I kind of have a problem with modern firearms costing END at all.  Especially on autofire.  I'm not at risk of passing out if I run a few mags through an assault rifle at full auto.  The STR Min in these cases would have more to do with accuracy and with reset time after each shot.  I'd seriously buy these down to 0 END if they aren't already.

 

I concur here.

 

In my game I don't even bother to track End usage that's accrued while using a firearm.

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I would define a shooting stance as an OCV bonus or, better yet, a means of negating recoil penalties.

 

To go back to the END question--I kind of have a problem with modern firearms costing END at all. Especially on autofire. I'm not at risk of passing out if I run a few mags through an assault rifle at full auto. The STR Min in these cases would have more to do with accuracy and with reset time after each shot. I'd seriously buy these down to 0 END if they aren't already.

I just wonder if the STR Minimum Limitation needs a 'half value' modifier for 0 END or a more definitive ruling is needed to differentiate non-muscle powered ranged weapons with a STR Min clearly defining the END cost to once per Phase regardless of the # of shots fired.

 

HM

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I don't think that Firearms should cost END to use (whether per shot or per phase). We've never played with that in over 15 years of Hero games, I never even knew that was a thing. If that means building them with Reduced END (0 END) like melee weapons are built, then so be it. In Heroic games you don't pay the points anyways. I don't see why Firearms should cost END to use accurately when a sword or battle axe doesn't. 

 

Now if a GM was going for gritty realism I could see an argument for all weapons (Guns & Melee) costing Long Term END that could slowly add up if a character was in enough prolonged combat situations during a day. 

 

Like Old Man mentioned above, blowing through 32 rounds of ammo on fully automatic in Uzi takes not even 5 seconds (their standard rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute). I'm not in great shape, I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and rarely exercise, if I'd guess my END would hardly be above 20, yet I didn't pass out or collapse after emptying a clip from an uzi. I was sore from the recoil the next day though. 

 

I guess if a "rules" explanation is really needed, then maybe Casual STR could be used to counter (all/some of) the END cost from the STR Min for using firearms and melee weapons? 

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