Superheroic Martial art master

[iena]

Hello everybody, in this thread I would like to collect suggestions, recommendations, opinions about martial art characters building, martial arts systems and so on.

Let's start with a short introduction to the topic I would like to discuss first.In my personal opinion the martial arts approach in hero system 6th is not fully satisfying... It seems to be a "separate part" not totally matching the philosophy of the system. I have recently built a couple of 500pts. Characters and in both cases I had preferred a multipower approach to build the martial arts style instead of using the martial maneuvers...this because the killing attacks powers can be much more effective. What about you? Which is your favorite approach?

[TheDarkness]

Hello everybody, in this thread I would like to collect suggestions, recommendations, opinions about martial art characters building, martial arts systems and so on.

Let's start with a short introduction to the topic I would like to discuss first.In my personal opinion the martial arts approach in hero system 6th is not fully satisfying... It seems to be a "separate part" not totally matching the philosophy of the system. I have recently built a couple of 500pts. Characters and in both cases I had preferred a multipower approach to build the martial arts style instead of using the martial maneuvers...this because the killing attacks powers can be much more effective. What about you? Which is your favorite approach?

I agree 100%. The lousy part is not being able to have skills in multi-powers, which would make the whole process so much simpler.

 

The thing that most lead me to this conclusion was the counterstrike. It isn't a counterstrike, at least how they work in any system I've encountered in 30 years in martial arts. Unfortunately, the thing most like a counterstrike would involve a trigger.

[Ninja-Bear]

Iena the only problem with multipowers are throws. Any type of throw maneuver the is a successful hit, the opponent automatically is thrown to the ground. it is really hard to replicate that with powers. (Now if you don't want that, thenthats fine.)

[Hyper-Man]

I don't think the existing Martial Arts system is mutually exclusive to the Powers system.  It might seem that way at first glance when you read the rules for Naked Advantages on STR but the better alternative is to create HA (Hand to Hand Attack) with Advantages which allow any STR and Martial Maneuver damage to add at to the Advantaged HA at a 'prorated valule'.  This is not spelled out very clearly in Champions Complete but it is explained very thoroughly in 6e2.

 

HM

[GhostDancer]

Regarding the efficiency of Killing Attack Powers, Aaron Allston leveraged this for a wider range of damage at the same cost for Nerve Strikes. Simply purchase the Killing Attack martial maneuver with a +0 Modifier, Does No Body. He named this S-Damage.

 

For a more rapid Counter Strike, use the Multiple Powers Attack rules to Block and Strike or such simultaneously. Your combined CV adds will not be as good this way, which is fine - game balance, eh?

 

Oh, and consider my Martial Hero thread, which has the same themes, objectives, etc.

[pinecone]

At high point values I tend strongly towards "Multi-fu"....I sometimes squish in HA increased KB as a sort of throw/shove move.

 

But you can make a very nice MA character with "just" move...

[bubba smith]

have your hero study every martial art he can

[TheDarkness]

Iena the only problem with multipowers are throws. Any type of throw maneuver the is a successful hit, the opponent automatically is thrown to the ground. it is really hard to replicate that with powers. (Now if you don't want that, thenthats fine.)

Wouldn't +x STR, Only for Knockdown, do exactly that?

 

I mean, you lose the automatic part, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

 

Actually, simpler still. Instead of +x STR, just x STR(or I suppose X points HA) only for knockdown.

 

Then the normal Strength is the damage(speed and force of the throw), the points under the multipower are solely for determining knockdown.

 

This is one of the things that I think gets fudged by the patch that is the martial arts system. It should be a no-brainer to determine what makes someone fall, there should not be a discussion of whether or not to use change environment, but, because the martial arts point system is entirely unrelated to the overall point system, it clouds the issue. There's a game mechanic for falling, that SHOULD BE the basis for determining how falling can be made to occur. Instead, there's knockdown, there's throws, there's trips, there's sweeps, and of those, only knockdown is not composed of a system that doesn't involve a mystery when looked at in comparison to how points work in everything in Hero that is not the martial arts system.

[assault]

Martial arts has always been part of the skill system.

 

Its pricing was based on cost effectiveness relative to other ways of doing damage. This connection was lost/obscured when it was broken up into individual maneuvers.

 

Here is how it was described in 2e Champions:

"MARTIAL ARTS: Martial Arts includes any form of advanced hand-to-hand fighting technique, from Boxing to Kung Fu. Martial Arts allows a character to use the more efficient Martial attacks on the Combat Maneuvers table (see Combat Maneuvers). Martial Arts costs a character as many Power Points as the character has STR. The character may increase the damage multiple of all his Martial Attacks by +x1/2 at a cost of 1/2 STR in points."

 

The result of that would be that a character with, say, Martial Arts and 20 STR would pay the same points to do the same damage as a character who bought 40 STR, The 40 STR character would get the benefit of figured characteristics, while the Martial Artist would get the benefit of improved combat values and Martial Throw. The STR character would also be more likely to do knockback, which would partly compensate for the lack of Martial Throw.

 

Needless to say this system was less granular, and didn't model specific martial arts. Then again, the source material seldom bothers with such subtleties.

 

A more serious limitation was that it was prohibitively expensive for high STR characters to buy martial arts, but that could mostly be compensated for by buying Skill Levels instead.

 

There were only five Martial Arts maneuvers. 

 

While crude, this system was integrated into the game when it was designed, and was reasonably balanced. Things only started going astray in other, non-superheroic genres.

[Cassandra]

Martial Artists should Defensive Maneuver IV to represent their ability to protect themselves even when surrounded.

 

They should have Missile Deflection to simulate their ability to avoid being hit by ranged attacks.

 

Danger Sense is another excellent way to show the Martial Artists heighten perceptions that give them the advantage in combat.

 

Combat Sense, and even Spatial Awareness are also recommended.

 

Combat Luck, various Martial Maneuvers, and Missile Deflection should be their primary means of avoiding injury.

 

Nightvision, Light Sleep, Lightning Reflexes, and Clinging are all good for showing extreme levels of training.

[assault]

All of which adds up to a ridiculous number of points, mostly better spent elsewhere.

[TheDarkness]

Martial arts has always been part of the skill system.

 

Its pricing was based on cost effectiveness relative to other ways of doing damage. This connection was lost/obscured when it was broken up into individual maneuvers.

 

Here is how it was described in 2e Champions:

"MARTIAL ARTS: Martial Arts includes any form of advanced hand-to-hand fighting technique, from Boxing to Kung Fu. Martial Arts allows a character to use the more efficient Martial attacks on the Combat Maneuvers table (see Combat Maneuvers). Martial Arts costs a character as many Power Points as the character has STR. The character may increase the damage multiple of all his Martial Attacks by +x1/2 at a cost of 1/2 STR in points."

 

The result of that would be that a character with, say, Martial Arts and 20 STR would pay the same points to do the same damage as a character who bought 40 STR, The 40 STR character would get the benefit of figured characteristics, while the Martial Artist would get the benefit of improved combat values and Martial Throw. The STR character would also be more likely to do knockback, which would partly compensate for the lack of Martial Throw.

 

Needless to say this system was less granular, and didn't model specific martial arts. Then again, the source material seldom bothers with such subtleties.

 

A more serious limitation was that it was prohibitively expensive for high STR characters to buy martial arts, but that could mostly be compensated for by buying Skill Levels instead.

 

There were only five Martial Arts maneuvers. 

 

While crude, this system was integrated into the game when it was designed, and was reasonably balanced. Things only started going astray in other, non-superheroic genres.

Thanks for that explanation!

 

One issue I have with the martial arts system(and my issues are mostly build and maneuver related, I think for making a quick martial artist, it is good) is that it looks sneakily like skills in a pool, because that's what it is. Yet, unlike every other pool, we cannot replicate that pool for our uses.

 

But, I don't want to derail the topic. How we build martial artists.

 

I've been messing around with using a trigger to make a proper counter strike. Trying to examine it from the perspective of game balance at this point.

 

Although, I've also been playing with the idea of making it simply be a move with a minor limitation in which it can only be used if normally the character could act first in the segment, without the trigger.

[TheDarkness]

Adapting block was initially a problem. It simply has such trump effects(allowing a low strength character with higher OCV to block the Hulk's punch has a LOT of hidden costs hand waved away for reasons of play, as does rewarding first attack. I understand this move is seen as part of the foundation of the hth system, like a sort of system physics, but having that physics obscured in the nebulous costs of the hth system creates issues).

 

I've since moved to making sure that the game balancing function of block is preserved somewhere, but there is no need for me to tie it to that specific move, or do it in the same way. The main thing for many players is it allows lower speed and/or lower dex characters a chance against their counterparts.

 

If we summarize block as a build, it is, essentially, using OCV plus modifiers versus OCV, and, if this succeeds, adding infinite DEX with the limitation of being only for initiative and only for when the opponent shares the same segment for their next phases and only versus THAT opponent. And it is aborted to.

 

Obviously, this would cost infinite points. Not doable.

 

But, assuming defensive actions can be aborted to is a sound game physics(which I think it is), the main thing for me now is figuring out how to model the roll for the block, assigning a reasonable value to the DEX bonus that could reasonably outpace most others, etc.

 

The reason I have to do so is because if one is building martial arts using powers, the first time one adds a naked advantage to a maneuver from the lists, they need to know the AP in terms of powers, and the maneuvers do not tell that.

 

Plus, it's fun messing around with the builds!

[TheDarkness]

I'm also working on how I'll build counter throws. I'm leaning now towards a bonus to DCV and DC with a STR bonus(or HA) for knockdown only, only usable when the player normally could act first, not abortable.

 

So, the villain tries to throw our hero, a quick character who tends to counter a lot. The hero's DCV is pretty good, made higher by the bonus, cost kept down a little by the limitation and being in a pool(since the DCV bonus and its modifiers can be placed in a pool, along with the DC bonus). The attack fails as the counter succeeds(assuming the hero succeeded in their attack roll), the DC bonus represents the fact that a counter, by definition, takes advantage of the attack it is countering, in this case, using the motion of the villain's failed throw to throw the villain harder than the hero could on their own.

 

I'm sort of slowly trying to figure out how I'll model these builds, then I'll work on how they'll fit in a pool. As stand-alones, their cost will be horrible, but, if there are enough options that add value, the pool may make it work, I guess I'll see.

[iena]

Hi Everybody,

 

In this period I'm trying to recreate with the Hero System a post nuclear-holocaust ambietation centered on the most esotic and lethal martial art.

I don't know if in the USA this character is a as famous as in Europe and, most important, in Japan (the country he comes from): Hokuto No Ken.

The manga is known with several different name as Ken, the warrior, the fist of the north star and others...

 

The sacred school of Hokuto Shinken is the most powerful and lethal martial art ever seen (the style born 1800 years ago with the aim of defending the chinese emperor): the style allows the hokuto master to make the opponents explode by pressing particular pressure points on the body called "tsubo".

The effects I can obtain with the pressure points are a lot: explosion, mental control, control of the body and others.

 

How would it be possible to creat powers that match this description?. Let's focus on the mortal strikes that make the opponents explode... Should they be HTH killing attack on AVAD? In this case the alternative defense would be very rare... something "having an anathomy different that the human one".

 

What do you think about it?

 

 

Thanks.

[steriaca]

With anime fans, Fist of the Northstar is well known.

 

The prime power is a huge HKA. Most people in the Northstar universe sell down there BODY to 8, and don't bother with armor beyond leather. Also, most thugs in the Northstar universe knows a 'martial art', but they don't really have anything Hero would call a martial art (simply a Weapon Familiarity and a CSL or two).

 

The exploding body is simply a special effect. It has no real barring on anything, except for dramatic effect of "Is that the best you can do? Pitiable." followed by "Your already dead." and a splotch as thug starts to attack again.

[assault]

If you are building something this specific, don't try and mix the characters with those from other settings. Or at least those with radically different assumptions.

 

Focus on: "it's this kind of game, and these are the assumptions", and build accordingly.

[Ninja-Bear]

Top of my head, you could have a + x HKA trigger with martial arts with a lim either Act or RSR- pressure points.

[iena]

Hi Everybody,

 

I'm going to revamp this topic (Started by me, by the way) in order to ask you for some suggestion (especially from the rules point of view) for the building of a multipower.

The multipower is going to contain a set of defensive powers to simulate the most mysterious defensive positions of a lethal martial art style.

 

1) Could I apply the "trigger" advantage to all the slots of the multipower? If yes, could the trigger condition be something like "The character aborts to block"?
2) Could the slots of this multipower be built as a compound power? Something like +6rPD/+6rED plus ​Knockback resistance, for instance.
3) The limitation "costs endurance to activate" could be applied for slot like one mentioned above? The resistant protection usually doesn't cost endurance, Am I right?
3) The resistant protection deriving from this multipower would stack with the one garanteed by other sources (like Combat Luck, for instance)?

 

Thanks in advance for your support.

[pinecone]

I guess you might be able to drop costs by requiring a manuever to activate? I don't "do" 6th though...but:

 

One thousand lotus deflection: Barrier Req Block? 10 thousand soldier grip, + ST Req: Grab, Shadow skill: Desolid, cannot pass through, Req: Dodge, "Instant"?...etc

 

 

I feel like I posted some Fist of the Northstar/Fist of the Southern Cross Waay back...it might still be around someplace..?

 

I think I suggested Trigger...."Tell your boss Hello"   "Hello Boss...splurch"

[pinecone]

Late thought you could buy "Combat luck,Requires a Defensive manuver (-1/4?) and call it good. That would give a boost whenever you Block or Doge, or even Escape....?