A quick question

[tcabril]

Had a bit of a discussion with a buddy of mine - we are trying again to grasp this system.

 

Would Wolverine's Claws or an energy sword like Psi-lock - from the Apocalypse movie (conjured by her mind i guess) are either a special effect or a Obvious Inaccessible Focus?

We both could make the argument either way...

 

Just curious...

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

The Focus Limitation would not apply.  They can't be removed in a Turn.  They typically can be restrained though so some form of Restrainable is usually appropriate.

 

HM

[Ndreare]

I agree with Hyper-Man. Neither is a focus.

[Nolgroth]

Not only are they not foci, they are little more than expressions of special effect. I would not even define them as Restrainable, anymore than I would define a punch or kick as restrainable. That they can be restrained is a system assumption and covered under the Grab rules. Of course, I would not cry havoc and unleash the hounds of Hero correctness if you allowed them to be bought that way.

[Hyper-Man]

See the following old post for some 5e an examples of Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/68154-captain-america-build-350-pts/?p=1743039

 

HM

[tcabril]

Thanks - I figured they were a special effect but the Restrainable aspect is rather cool!

[whitekeys]

I agree with Nolgroth. As was seen the one of the movies, despite being restrained, he was still able to use his claws to free himself from that weird garrote thing. Same with something like a lightsaber, or this energy sword you're talking about.

 

However, assuming you're building a character that's like Wolverine, or with powers inspired by Wolverine, you'd have to decide whether this was something your power was capable of or not. Up to you! 

[bigdamnhero]

Right, the question isn't how can Wolverine's claws be Restrained, but how can this character's claws be Restrained. Maybe Wolvie started out with Restrainable, but after a few centuries' worth of XP he bought off that Limitation (ie - got more experienced at using his claws even when restrained). Similarly for the psi-sword, what circumstances would prevent the character from wielding it, and how common are those circumstances likely to be in your game.

 

You can also ask the question from the other direction: how often do you want it to come up? If you're getting a discount for Focus/Restrainable, the assumption is that it will come up sometimes, frequency varying with the value of the Lim. If the player doesn't want that to happen, then they probably shouldn't take it as a Limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Right, the question isn't how can Wolverine's claws be Restrained, but how can this character's claws be Restrained. Maybe Wolvie started out with Restrainable, but after a few centuries' worth of XP he bought off that Limitation (ie - got more experienced at using his claws even when restrained). Similarly for the psi-sword, what circumstances would prevent the character from wielding it, and how common are those circumstances likely to be in your game.

 

You can also ask the question from the other direction: how often do you want it to come up? If you're getting a discount for Focus/Restrainable, the assumption is that it will come up sometimes, frequency varying with the value of the Lim. If the player doesn't want that to happen, then they probably shouldn't take it as a Limitation.

As a matter of useless trivia, Wolverine started off with claws that were a Focus. The creator of the character envisioned him as tough, rapidly recovering, fast and aggressive. The government had outfitted him with adamantium claws in his gloves. It was only in the X-Men arc where the characters were without their costumes that someone decided it would be cool for his claws to come out of his hands, not his gloves.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This was the exact moment that Wolverine became cool.  Before that he was just some tough guy nobody knew much about, barely in the comic.

 

[Matt the Bruins]

For things like claws I'd tend to go with Physical Manifestation rather than Restrainable, if I used a Limitation at all. The latter is probably better for the psychic knife, as I don't think it's supposed to actually be tangible although I've seen it directed against unintended targets by grabbing Psylocke's harm.

[Hyper-Man]

Like bigdamnhero said, it really depends on what the player wants.  Based on the 6e Limitation descriptions below, Wolverine-like retractable claws seem like a better fit for Restrainable. I don't know enough about Psylocke's energy blades to say one way or the other.

 

From 6e1 page 387:

PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION
Value: -¼
This -¼ Limitation signifies a power that, while not built as a Focus or the like, has some physical embodiment that other characters can attack. Examples include a Flight bought to simulate riding a column of force, Telekinesis defined as a giant stone hand that grabs things, or skating along an ice-slide.

When a character applies this Limitation to the power, he must define the exact nature of the physical manifestation. This requires the GM’s approval and may involve applying other Limitations to the power. Treat the manifestation like a Breakable Focus for purposes of determining its PD/ED and BODY (since most Physical Manifestations are only going to involve one power, that typically means they’ll only have 1 BODY, but the GM can change that if desired). It has a DCV equal to the character’s base DCV (i.e., as calculated from DEX, with no other modifiers), unless the GM rules otherwise based on the size or nature of the manifestation.

At the GM’s option, characters can take Physical Manifestation for Instant Powers that have a “lingering” or long-term effect of some sort. Examples include Mind Control (which can continue to affect the target long after the Attack Roll was made) and Telepathy (which characters can use to conduct long conversations). It might even apply to a Power like HKA if it’s defined as creating claws or a weapon — the claws “remain in existence” between Phases even if the character can’t use them. (See also Time Limit, 6E1 346.) As long as the temporary loss of the power might restrict or hinder the character in some way (for example, if re-activating it takes a lot of time and effort), Physical Manifestation is probably a valid Limitation. If the character can instantly re-activate the power and not having it for a few seconds doesn’t hinder him at all, the GM shouldn’t allow the Limitation (or should give it a maximum value of -0).

 

From 6e1 page 393:

RESTRAINABLE
Value: -½; -¼ for powers Restrainable by means other than Grabs and Entangles
A power with this -½ Limitation is generated by or based upon an area of the body that can be restrained. Examples include Flight defined as having wings or some HKAs defined as having claws. If that area or part of the body is Grabbed, Entangled, or otherwise restrained, the character cannot use the power. When he breaks free of the restraint, or it’s removed, the power functions normally again.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Wolvwerine's claws could reasonably take the lesser limitation for being Restrainable by magnetism, given the prevalence of Magneto. Really, who thought it was a good idea to have both a guy with metal claws and a guy who can turn to metal on a team with an arch-nemesis with magnetic powers?

 

Wolverine was initially a tough sell. The scene from #99 or so gave him the "part of him" claws. In or around #115, in the Savage Land, it was implied he snuck up on, and killed, two guards. The letter column rage was so strong that they said "fine, he pulled the claws back in off-panel and knocked them out". The Dark Phoenix Saga scene where his mass is enhanced and he drops through the building, ending up in the sewer was supposed to be fatal, but the writer and artist (Claremont and Byrne) said "Let's give him one more shot - a real feature issue".

 

They did, and the character took off. But it was not "instant acceptance" of this new, more violent form of superhero. And when Storm took over the reigns, she confronts him in combat with an "X-Men Don't Kill" speech.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If they had not done this scene, and killed him, the X-men would have really suffered

 

[Sean Waters]

Had a bit of a discussion with a buddy of mine - we are trying again to grasp this system.

 

Would Wolverine's Claws or an energy sword like Psi-lock - from the Apocalypse movie (conjured by her mind i guess) are either a special effect or a Obvious Inaccessible Focus?

We both could make the argument either way...

 

Just curious...

 

Welcome to the Hero discussion boards.  Prepare for wild speculation and an astonishing degree of mission creep, argument, in-jokes and disagreement, apparently for the sake of it.

 

It's great here.

[Sean Waters]

Wolverine's claws are not restrainable.  You occasionally see him wearing some sort of massive cuffs for plot reasons, but who carries those things around with them?

 

They are not even restrainable by magnetism, at least not as part of the power cost.  That might be a complication, given that it would hardly ever come up if the XMenz main villain was not TheClueIsInTheNameO.

 

Maybe if he could not pop them in and out they would be restrainable, but there is no way he does not have access to his claws 20-33% of the time.

 

Could a Wolverine-like character be built with restrainable claws (or physical manifestation, or whatever)? Sure.  Expect your GM to deny you the use of the power every 3 to 5 fights.  That is what you want, take the cost break, otherwise pony up.