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Swap-in Replacement for D&D 5e?


knasser2
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Hello. First time poster here and utter newbie to the Hero system and FH. I will try not to ask too many questions I could find out just by doing a search though! :)

 

I've a lot of experience as a GM but mainly with newer systems like World of Darkness (the newer stuff), FFG's Star Wars system, Shadowrun 4e. My group recently expressed a desire to do some old school fantasy and it being the big name in the genre, I went out and got D&D 5e. It was premature - honestly I'm finding it a little loose and woolly and not very well balanced. Hard to put my finger on it exactly and listing any one thing by itself just sounds like not a big deal but for example, the way everything seems very focused around four people having six encounters per day. I would think I could just drop things down to fewer and have a tougher monster but there seem to be a lot of abilities that are very nova and the game seems to expect challenge to come from PCs not being able to do this more than once per day so if you don't throw in enough attrition, it gets sticky.

 

Bleh! Unnecessary pre-amble. Short version is we're very early in the campaign and I have this nagging feeling that there's probably something better out there for what I want. Someone suggested the Hero system. I said: "That one with the eight-inch rule-book?" and they said "no, no, well yes, but trust me - it's not how it seems!" :)

 

So I'm looking at Hero and FH. I don't yet have FH to be clear. I want to ask a couple of things before I click buy on the books based on somebody's recommendation. So, particular things I'm curious on and haven't been able to get a feel for:

 

1. My vague awareness of Hero is as a super-heroes game system. I do believe that it can work for a generic fantasy game, swapping in spells for super-powers, etc. But how does it work for the non-magic or low-magic classes? Archers and Fighters and Paladins, etc. Does it / can it balance say some spell-casting wizard and a burly fighter all in the same party? And if so, does it do it in the same sort of way D&D 5e would do it where a fighter improves in core solid attributes like having extra hit points, harder to hit / damage, etc.? Or does it do it in a more D&D 4e way where the wizard has a room clearing ability called Fireball and the Fighter has a room clearing ability called "Barrage of Blows" but it all boils down to different flavours on the same thing. This is probably my biggest concern - I want to preserve differentiation between character types. E.g. fighter's progression is to become ever tougher and to hit people harder, magician gets more and more powerful spells and ability to control the environment, rogue gets faster and gets special ways to strike people, or dodge out of combat, etc. There was a game called Iron Heroes which I loved the class design of - you had barbarians, harriers, armigers - all of which played very differently. What I've read about Hero is that it is endlessly flexible in character development. I'm worried that this means I'll get fighters and wizards who play the same and are just described differently whereas I want very different character types. How does FH handle "classes", basically?

 

2. In rough terms, how does magic work in FH? Is it learn spells from a set list that are prepared? Is it "This round I will apply a fire effect to this area effect and that many damage dice" style of round-to-round flexibility? You'll notice that my questions are all of a theme here - how can I do D&D but better! ;)

 

3. Is there a good source of cliché monsters I can find / buy somewhere? Orcs, goblins, dragons, etc? It will take me a while I imagine before I become comfortable designing my own monsters if I get this. Must have a ready source of goblins! :)

 

4. How "high-level" does this get? I know it can scale up very well and doesn't have levels as such (I think?) but what does a game look like at a very high level compared to starting out? The same but bigger numbers on both sides or does it start to play differently? And can it keep balance between "fighters" and "wizards" at high levels of play when one is focused mainly on physical power and the other is developing magical powers the whole time?

 

Sorry - I know that's a long post. Maybe I should just buy the books and trust, but I think even if I did it would take me a lot of reading and time to really get a feel for it. My D&D 5e campaign is still very new so if I want to swap to a new system, now is probably the time to do something so drastic.

 

ALL replies are appreciated!

 

K.

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The closest comparison I could make between the Hero System and any of the games that you have experience with is Shadowrun 4e. Hero is pretty much a classless system, but you can build roles within the group to mirror D&D roles. If you want a fighter to be big and tough you have to buy the proper stats to reflect that.

 

They make the Hero Bestiary that is chock full of mythical monsters, you could say an entire compendium's worth. I suggest it because it was useful in showing me how they make the powers and abilities that made it easier as a player and as a GM running my first game.

 

You don't have as much a problem with the 15 minute work day as you do in D&D because your abilities are more frequently available (depending on how you write them) and the downtime is negligible in most cases. Haven't used Hero for fantasy yet, but I can see where it would work very easily.

 

There aren't any levels, but with CP you can increase what you want to increase in a way that is not restricted by class. Brainy fighters, buff wizards, and everything in between are completely possible with the system.

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Well to start off: Welcome to the HERO Games community!

If you are looking to run Fantasy Hero, but don't want to delve into too much rules text I cannot more highly recommend Fantasy Hero Complete. It is just over 260 pages long, including a fair (but not excessive) number of example characters and monsters built at various point levels. All of the environmental and combat rules fit into a little over 30 pages.

 

Going Point by Point

1:  Yes, the HERO system was designed to mimic superheroic tropes. However, the system still includes more than enough rules support to run a wide verity of other types of campaigns. HERO system is very good at being toolkitted (modified slightly) to simulate genres of fiction which games like D&D and Pathfinder simply cannot ever hope to accomplish; such as historical "low-fantasy".

The Hero System doesn't "Handle Classes". There are no classes, the concept simply doesn't exist. Almost everything in HERO is written to be neutral from a special effect perspective, and encourages players to attach the special effect they want to their abilities. In that regard everyone is balanced because they are all measured against the same metrics, only the players choices impact what they are good and bad at. If you want to differentiate mechanically between various adventuring professions, you as the GM have to create/find and enforce the use of "Templates".

A Template is a package of game elements intended to represent a particular concept. Fantasy Hero Complete includes a fairly nice list of Racial and Professional Templates. For example, an "Elf" template includes bonuses to Dexterity, Intelligence, and Perception, "Life Support" (so that they live longer than Humans), and faster "Running" (ground movement); A "Fighter" Template might include Strength, Constitution, BODY & STUN (which are kind of Hit Points), and Weapon Familiarities (which are weapon proficiencies in D&D terms). I find Templates really useful for making sure I have "all the things I need" to fill a role, or represent a kind of character. But even at the lowest point levels the character's will frequently have points left over.

 

2:  Magic works more or less however the GM wants it too, or not at all. Attempting to mimic the exact spellcasting system in D&D is going to be difficult, but attempting to mimic a spellcasting system from your favorite fantasy book or TV show is fairly easy. There are Game Elements which allow you to include most (if not all) of the kinds of restrictions you see spellcasters suffering from. In most cases a spellcaster's character sheet looks the most like a superhero's. They tend to be "cinematic", and have spells that fall into a theme (such as a wizard who practices Fire magic exclusively). Your average spellcaster might only know between three and a dozen spells, but unlike in D&D none of those spells are arbitrarily weaker or stronger than others. As a spellcaster gains experience they can simply continue to make their "Fireball" spell more and more powerful, or learn variations on their original fireball that sacrifice damage for a wider area of effect, or penetrate defenses more easily, or work on ghosts... etc.

 

3:  Fantasy Hero Complete includes enough monsters to get started... however the HERO System Bestiary what you are looking for if you want something like the D&D Monster Manual. It is almost 500 pages of nothing but creatures to throw at your party. It includes very good guidelines for designing monsters, and includes monsters fit for almost every genre you can imagine.

 

4:  When I say "HERO System scale All the Way" don't take it as an exaggeration. Within the same system you can have one character that is weaker than a 1st level Human Commoner standing right next to a "Monk" who can literally (and I mean literally) destroy entire mountains with his punches. Hero System is a point based game, so "levels" don't exist per-say. However in my experience, and based upon a little inference using the math of D&D's challenge rating system I can give you some insight on scale of play as it relates to D&D levels.

One "Level" in D&D is equal to about 25 CP in HERO System. Most NPCs are between 1st and 4th level. Most starting heroic adventurers are the equivalent of 7th level D&D characters (so high enough that even you "Paladins" and "Rangers" can afford to have learned a little bit of magic). Most starting superheroic characters are the equivalent of 12th level characters, and using that math as a guideline a "cosmically powerful superhero" is roughly equivalent to a 30th level D&D character... However, as you get higher and higher the power level skews because in the HERO system +5 "Strength" or +1d6 "Blast" represents twice as much force as the previous 5 Strength or 1d6 of Blast (Blast is the basic ranged attack power from which spells like Fireball and Magic Missile are often built)

As for how it maintains balance between different styles of characters at different point levels. I feel like it does a fairly good job, however as you gain more and more points to work with, characters are going to become more and more grandiose. Eventually you will end up with fighters who can survive swimming in Lava and can cleave mountains with their swords, Archer who can hit an enemy in the eye with an arrow from 100 Kilometers away and do enough damage to blow their heads clean off, and Rogues so skilled, they literally become invisible or can walk ghost-like through walls, and teleport in puffs if ninja-like smoke.

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The biggest difference between HERO and D&D is the damage/defense system and XP advancement without leveling.

 

Most Hit Point systems were originally designed to model fights to the death.  Stun, Body and defenses in HERO are designed to model fights to the stunned/knocked-out.  Death is still possible but it's actually possible to inflict a lethal blow that doesn't stun or knock out a target (ex: allowing them to continue fighting until they bleed out).  From a practical standpoint there are few reasons for characters to increase Body and Stun with XP with the same frequency that occurs with HP with Leveling in D&D.  The XP is typically spent in many other areas.  In the case of a traditional fantasy 'fighter' those might include some increases to defenses via characteristics, talents, combat skill levels and even martial arts. What this means is that the equivalent to a 10th level fighter in HERO terms may not have characteristics that look that much better than the equivalent to a 1st level fighter.  However, the high-end fighter will have much more points invested in other abilities and skills.  The benefit to this approach is the elimination for the need for ever-increasing damage.  Being able to hit or not be hit is more important.  This is not to say that characters can't get physically tougher, they can. But it's not at the same steep curve that occurs in level based games.

 

Hope that helps some.  There are plenty of HERO fans around here who have never used the system for supers, instead they've always used it for fantasy or other 'heroic' level games.  Hopefully some of them will chime in soon.

 

:)

HM

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It wouldn't be a swap-in replacement... Hero is a points-based skills and powers system, where D&D is class and level.  Advancement in Hero is through additional character points awarded as experience that you can spend on improving your abilities as desired.  I go into some detail in a document called "How to Play HERO System" here, and you can check out "Hero in 2 Pages" here.
 
1.  Typically, Fantasy Hero uses Powers to build spells, magic items, and character special abilities.  In practice you can limit power levels and set up requirements for who gets to buy what.  All characters have access to Talents which are something like low-powered powers, resembling D&D's feats more than anything.  Mundane equipment such as normal weapons and armor usually has a Power build behind it but characters don't pay points for it.  You could more or less limit spellcasters to buying spells (built as Powers) and require non-spellcasters to focus on Skill use.  Or you could let non-spellcasters go a bit further and buy some special abilities.  That's entirely up to the GM.   :)
 
2.  Spells are built as Powers.  HERO System is "effects based" in which you need to first decide what you want an ability to do.  Does it do damage?  Does it knock someone back?  Does it inhibit their senses?  Once you've decided, you'd choose the best Power or Powers that would match the effect you're going for.  You can then apply Advantages to improve its function (such as by giving it an Area of Effect or making it Armor Piercing) or Limitations in order to save points (such as requiring Gestures, Incantations, magical materials, and so on).  Many GMs offer ways of reducing point costs for magic in order to put spellcasters on the same footing as non-spell users, who don't have to pay points for mundane weapons and armor.  
 
3.  The HERO System Bestiary is available for purchase in the Hero Games store.   :)  I would strongly recommend it for fantasy.  I'd also recommend the HERO System Grimoire (tons of prebuilt spells) and the Equipment Guide (mundane items of all tech levels; no magic items, but it shows how they're built, plus you can reskin technological items as magic items) as well.  
 
4.  All character types are built using the same system, so balance between them is a matter of ensuring the points balance.  That said, it is possible for characters with a lot of built-in Powers to outshine non-spellcasters, though not anywhere as drastically as in the various versions of D&D.  GMs can also keep a handle on that by making sure to provide challenges and fun opportunities for each character.  
 
Fantasy Hero Complete is the current HERO System fantasy corebook; it's available in print + PDF from Hero Games for $30, or in PDF alone for $10.  Easy enough to check out if you're interested.  

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Someone suggested the Hero system. I said: "That one with the eight-inch rule-book?" and they said "no, no, well yes, but trust me - it's not how it seems!" :)

 

So I'm looking at Hero and FH. I don't yet have FH to be clear. I want to ask a couple of things before I click buy on the books based on somebody's recommendation. So, particular things I'm curious on and haven't been able to get a feel for:

Hero as a game system is a toolkit for creating pretty much anything you want to envision.

 

NOTE: 5e is the previous version of the system and is still sold by Hero. 6e is the current version. Converting material from 5e to 6e is relatively easy (especially if you use Hero Designer - see below).

 

1. My vague awareness of Hero is as a super-heroes game system. I do believe that it can work for a generic fantasy game, swapping in spells for super-powers, etc.

Yes Hero start out as Champions - a super heros gaming system. Hero easily evolved into a generic gaming system. The way this is managed is based on how many character points a character starts with and how many points they can use to buy various powers. In Superhero games the base points for building a character and for creating powers/abilities is much higher than a 'heroic' level game (most fantasy games are heroic).

 

But how does it work for the non-magic or low-magic classes? Archers and Fighters and Paladins, etc. Does it / can it balance say some spell-casting wizard and a burly fighter all in the same party?

The last question first - Resounding Yes. Here is how it works:

 

Conan the Barbarian has a Hand-and-Half Sword and he is very strong. When he attacks with his sword it does 'killing damage' and that with his strength he can do 3d6 killing attack with the sword.

 

Merlin the Mage has a Fireball. His Fireball is also a 'killing damage' attack and it is an actual ball of fire that fills 6m radius globe of space and it will do 2d6 killing attack.

 

Each of those attacks use the same Hero mechanics to 'build them'.

 

Killing Attack cost 15 points per 1d6

Area of Effect for a 6m radius is called an advantage and adds +1/2 to the total cost.

 

Conan's sword is 3d6 so that means 3*15 points = 45 points

Merlin's Fireball 2d6 so that means 2*15 = 30 points * 1.5 = 45 points

 

So that means both of these attacks are 'balanced'.

 

In a 'heroic' game Conan's sword is something Conan can buy with money. So he doesn't spend his character points for the sword itself. But he does need to spend them on things like Strength, Body, Constitution, defenses, weapon familiarities, skills with swords.

 

Merlin has to spend points to get a fireball. Typically a mage will have to include limitations to any spells. They probably will include, material components (bat guano), focus (wand), gestures, incantations, possibly concentration, etc. All of those things will lower the cost from 45 points to a real cost.

 

And if so, does it do it in the same sort of way D&D 5e would do it where a fighter improves in core solid attributes like having extra hit points, harder to hit / damage, etc.? Or does it do it in a more D&D 4e way where the wizard has a room clearing ability called Fireball and the Fighter has a room clearing ability called "Barrage of Blows" but it all boils down to different flavours on the same thing. This is probably my biggest concern - I want to preserve differentiation between character types. E.g. fighter's progression is to become ever tougher and to hit people harder, magician gets more and more powerful spells and ability to control the environment, rogue gets faster and gets special ways to strike people, or dodge out of combat, etc. There was a game called Iron Heroes which I loved the class design of - you had barbarians, harriers, armigers - all of which played very differently. What I've read about Hero is that it is endlessly flexible in character development. I'm worried that this means I'll get fighters and wizards who play the same and are just described differently whereas I want very different character types. How does FH handle "classes", basically?

You will have to manage that yourself, Hero doesn't force you to do one or the other.

 

Here are a couple of examples:

2. In rough terms, how does magic work in FH? Is it learn spells from a set list that are prepared? Is it "This round I will apply a fire effect to this area effect and that many damage dice" style of round-to-round flexibility? You'll notice that my questions are all of a theme here - how can I do D&D but better! ;)

How do you want it to work?

If you want to have mages that can be something like Dr. Strange then you as the GM can decide how to set the mechanics up to do that (Variable Power Pools and some specific advantages are required). I would recommend you don't do that.

 

If you want mages to have a set of spells that they know and can cast you can do that as well. You can even create 'schools' of magic and create an advantage for mages to stay within a school.

 

3. Is there a good source of cliché monsters I can find / buy somewhere? Orcs, goblins, dragons, etc? It will take me a while I imagine before I become comfortable designing my own monsters if I get this. Must have a ready source of goblins! :)

Yes there is a 'monster manual' - http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/78-the-hero-system-bestiary-pdf/

 

4. How "high-level" does this get? I know it can scale up very well and doesn't have levels as such (I think?) but what does a game look like at a very high level compared to starting out? The same but bigger numbers on both sides or does it start to play differently? And can it keep balance between "fighters" and "wizards" at high levels of play when one is focused mainly on physical power and the other is developing magical powers the whole time?

Well the big thing is that players get experience points pretty 'slowly' - 1 to 3 XP per adventure (1 or 2 sessions). In the beginning most players use the XP to fill out their character with skills or physical abilities to match their initial vision but they didn't have points to build that character. Once that happens players tend to save points to get something big.

 

For instance in my Nyonian campaign the two mages could not increase the overall power of their spells without spending a fair number of points (15 or 20 if I remember correctly). So the players saved the points over time and then went on a quest which magically enhanced their abilities and they bought the enhancement with points.

 

Other characters, such as fighters might buy special combat maneuvers. For instance "Whirling Blades of Death" - which allows them to attack any characters standing directly next to them - so if they are surrounded they can chop up their opponents like a food processor chops up a bunch of carrots. The Hero mechanic might be Area of Effect 2m Radius only useable with a melee weapon and no range.

 

Sorry - I know that's a long post. Maybe I should just buy the books and trust, but I think even if I did it would take me a lot of reading and time to really get a feel for it. My D&D 5e campaign is still very new so if I want to swap to a new system, now is probably the time to do something so drastic.

So here are my recommendations for you on what to purchase. I am also going to recommend getting PDFs rather than hard copies because of the cost. My first set of suggestions is based on your building or using an existing campaign (say one of the D&D settings):

Need a campaign setting (you still need some of the items from above):

Additional resources

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Wow. I don't know what the game is like but the community around the game is great. Lots of responses, all of them helpful and understanding what I'm asking.

 

I'm afraid there are too many and some overlap for me to reply without causing a quotepocalyose. So for the sake of readability I'll just reply generally. :)

 

This is sounding really positive. The Fantasy Hero Complete 6e (http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/507-fantasy-hero-complete-pdf/) is cheap enough for me to buy speculatively and have a poke around. Am I right in understanding that this actually contains the rules system as well - at least in a form that would let me get started and gaming? I'd be happy enough to buy the full rule-book later if it works out, I just want to be sure if this will be enough to try it out with and get a bit of gaming in with.

 

So many of my questions were answered but a few were raised. Templates sound useful for what I want to do - simulate classes. It sounds like they're more guiding than restricting, is that right? Could I effectively build a "Fighter" template that laid out what could be bought? E.g. if I don't WANT a player declaring that their fighter now has a power that lets them kill everyone in a 40' square, i.e. creating a spell effect and just declaring, "oh, these are my sword-chucks" for flavour? I get that this might be a little against the spirit of the system by the sounds of things, but can I do it? Can I make a template that is a menu? Or should I really, really not do that?

 

The other two things that stood out to me very starkly were these. "A starting PC is like a seventh level D&D character". TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH! Can I make the PCs start off as equivalent to level 1 D&D characters? I have a whole goblin-war path planned out. Do not pass 'Go'. Do not proceed directly to Dragons. :) But if I do that, it sounds like progression out of the box is very slow. How tweakable is that? Secondly, that bit about "evenutally fighters will be swimming in lava". That's never going to be where I want my game to end up. Fighting giants? Yes. Battling beyond the point of human endurance against an endless tide of orcs like John Carter in the movie, uh, John Carter. But not out and out "lava only does 4d6 damage and I can soak that much easy" sort of stuff. D&D 5e has this concept of "Bounded Accuracy" which is one of the few things I really like about it. It's essentially "everything counts in large amounts", i.e. a hundred goblins will take down even a very high-level fighter. Anything like that in Hero? Maybe depleting endurance through combat or something?

 

I think I'll probably grab FCH shortly and maybe I can start answering my own questions. But you're all really helpful and some of these are tricky to get from a quick read, such as power progression. Again, thank you so much for all replies. Especially Cantriped who I think got exactly where I was coming from. All really helpful.

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Fantasy Hero Complete is probably 80% Hero System rules and 20% Fantasy sourcebook stuff.  If you like the system you will probably want to get the pdf of the original Fantasy Hero 6e sourcebook (no longer available in print).

 

More can be seen about the latter here:

https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/87221/fantasy-hero-6th-edition

 

:)

HM

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Wow. I don't know what the game is like but the community around the game is great. Lots of responses, all of them helpful and understanding what I'm asking.

 

I'm afraid there are too many and some overlap for me to reply without causing a quotepocalyose. So for the sake of readability I'll just reply generally. :)

 

This is sounding really positive. The Fantasy Hero Complete 6e (http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/507-fantasy-hero-complete-pdf/) is cheap enough for me to buy speculatively and have a poke around. Am I right in understanding that this actually contains the rules system as well - at least in a form that would let me get started and gaming? I'd be happy enough to buy the full rule-book later if it works out, I just want to be sure if this will be enough to try it out with and get a bit of gaming in with.

Yes, it will be. The two "complete" books (Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete) each contain the full HERO System rules. The difference between those and the full huge 6e volumes is that the volumes include a lot of commentary, explanation, optional rules, and attempts to address edge cases in the rules. Also note that the book entitled Fantasy Hero is not complete and doesn't include the rules. But it does contain a lot more "how to" and helpful parts, and if you can, I do recommend that you get it along with FHC, the Bestiary, and the Grimoire at the very least.

 

So many of my questions were answered but a few were raised. Templates sound useful for what I want to do - simulate classes. It sounds like they're more guiding than restricting, is that right?

 

Correct. 

 

Could I effectively build a "Fighter" template that laid out what could be bought? E.g. if I don't WANT a player declaring that their fighter now has a power that lets them kill everyone in a 40' square, i.e. creating a spell effect and just declaring, "oh, these are my sword-chucks" for flavour? I get that this might be a little against the spirit of the system by the sounds of things, but can I do it? Can I make a template that is a menu? Or should I really, really not do that?

 

You really, really can do that. :) The HERO System puts a lot on the GM specifically in what to and what not to allow. Especially for Powers and magic in general. The game actually expects you to do some work in creating a magic system, though there are worked examples in both FHC and the main Fantasy Hero genre book (which I'd recommend in at least PDF along with the other recommendations).  A magic system can be as easy as "These are the Powers casters are allowed to buy, these are the ones they are not; this list of Limitations are required, this list is strongly recommended.  Max Active Points is so many, max Damage Class is yea big, max defenses are another number."  Or it can include a rationale for how the characters think magic works, another rationale for how the gods know it works, yet another for how the GM knows it works, a huge list of spells that are allowed, and so on and so forth.  You could also create a very workable magic system by looking through the Grimoire, picking three or five or however many types of magic from there, and say "These are the only ones that are allowed."  

 

Just make sure all of the players are on board with your expectations.  I can't stress that enough.  And don't be afraid to come back here and ask questions.   ;)

 

The other two things that stood out to me very starkly were these. "A starting PC is like a seventh level D&D character". TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH! Can I make the PCs start off as equivalent to level 1 D&D characters?

 

You totally can. Just lower the starting point levels.  There's not really a hard-and-fast "X points equals Y level" ratio, as the systems are built with different play styles in mind.  Characters of about 125 total points with 25 or so of that in Matching Complications should get you pretty close to the zero-to-hero, "level 1" Fantasy Hero character.  (You might also take a look at my "HERO System Low Heroic Protocols," here.)

 

But if I do that, it sounds like progression out of the box is very slow. How tweakable is that?

As tweakable as you want. Just change the XP awards. :)

 

Secondly, that bit about "evenutally fighters will be swimming in lava". That's never going to be where I want my game to end up. Fighting giants? Yes. Battling beyond the point of human endurance against an endless tide of orcs like John Carter in the movie, uh, John Carter. But not out and out "lava only does 4d6 damage and I can soak that much easy" sort of stuff.

 

And you never have to let it get there. :) What the player characters can buy with their XP (or their starting points, for that matter) is always up to the GM. Just make sure you and your players are on the same page and you're golden.

 

D&D 5e has this concept of "Bounded Accuracy" which is one of the few things I really like about it. It's essentially "everything counts in large amounts", i.e. a hundred goblins will take down even a very high-level fighter. Anything like that in Hero? Maybe depleting endurance through combat or something?

 

Well... there's an art and a science to balancing Fantasy Hero encounters.  By the time you get your campaign to that level you'll have a better feel for how those will balance out.  You'll probably find that ten goblins can challenge a medium-experienced group of Fantasy Hero characters.  Or you might find that the super experienced fighter can cut through a hundred.  

 

 

I think I'll probably grab FCH shortly and maybe I can start answering my own questions. But you're all really helpful and some of these are tricky to get from a quick read, such as power progression. Again, thank you so much for all replies. Especially Cantriped who I think got exactly where I was coming from. All really helpful.

 

Glad we could help!

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My rule of thumb is that point values being equal, every 50 points over doubles power.  So if you have 100 point characters, a 150 point monster can fight 2 of them, a 200 point can fight 4 of them, and so on.

 

Its very sketchy and depends a lot on how the points are spent, but it gives you a really quick and dirty rule of thumb to throw at characters in a pinch.  There is probably a break point at which it doesn't work any more, as well (high enough points, like 400 or more).

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The other two things that stood out to me very starkly were these. "A starting PC is like a seventh level D&D character". TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH! Can I make the PCs start off as equivalent to level 1 D&D characters? I have a whole goblin-war path planned out. Do not pass 'Go'. Do not proceed directly to Dragons. :) But if I do that, it sounds like progression out of the box is very slow. How tweakable is that? Secondly, that bit about "evenutally fighters will be swimming in lava". That's never going to be where I want my game to end up. Fighting giants? Yes. Battling beyond the point of human endurance against an endless tide of orcs like John Carter in the movie, uh, John Carter. But not out and out "lava only does 4d6 damage and I can soak that much easy" sort of stuff. D&D 5e has this concept of "Bounded Accuracy" which is one of the few things I really like about it. It's essentially "everything counts in large amounts", i.e. a hundred goblins will take down even a very high-level fighter. Anything like that in Hero? Maybe depleting endurance through combat or something?

 

The interpretation of a starting Heroic level character as a 7th level D&D character is only 1 person's interpretation. Don't take that as gospel. Others already mentioned changing starting points, etc. to adjust the starting power level. You also need to take into account that the Hero system goblins are also built using the same system, so things probably aren't as out-of-whack as you may first think.

 

As far as progression, don't panic and stop thinking in D&D terms. Unlike D&D you don't need hundreds, or thousands, of experience points to improve your character. Those small amounts work just fine for most folks. Plus, unlike D&D, you can have gradual improvement rather than some sort of level-up big-bang.

 

As far as swimming through lava, etc., that's up to you as GM to control. And it's not restricted to Hero System. Others have already given you the best advice...just say, "No."

 

Unless you allow someone to build a character outside of the norms you seem to want, or give them equipment to make them effectively invulnerable, i think that you'll find your normal heroes won't be going toe-to-toe with vast hoards of goblins an winning. (And there is actually an Endurance characteristic).

 

One additional thing to be aware of, although I don't know how this may have changed in D&D 4e/5e: defenses, such as armor, reduce the damage taken in Hero System, they don't make you harder to hit. This isn't wrong, it's just a different approach. (And cue someone telling you how they have armor (items) in their campaign that does make you harder to hit--because, yes, you can build something like that in Hero, it's just not a defense (characteristic) such as others have mentioned in this thread).

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Glad you like it, I have a few D&D-style modules for sale as well, some dungeon crawly stuff you might find useful.

 

As for starting out low level: I agree, I like very small power that builds rather than starting capable right away.  Its not hard to do; 6th edition suggests starting with 175 points for a heroic campaign like Fantasy.  I recommend fewer points like 100-125 max.  You can start even lower for a "zero level" character feel like 50 points; this represents a basic character with a small amount of abilities, maybe famliarity with some weapons and a professional skill.

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Hello. First time poster here and utter newbie to the Hero system and FH. I will try not to ask too many questions I could find out just by doing a search though! :)

 

I've a lot of experience as a GM but mainly with newer systems like World of Darkness (the newer stuff), FFG's Star Wars system, Shadowrun 4e. My group recently expressed a desire to do some old school fantasy and it being the big name in the genre, I went out and got D&D 5e. It was premature - honestly I'm finding it a little loose and woolly and not very well balanced. Hard to put my finger on it exactly and listing any one thing by itself just sounds like not a big deal but for example, the way everything seems very focused around four people having six encounters per day. I would think I could just drop things down to fewer and have a tougher monster but there seem to be a lot of abilities that are very nova and the game seems to expect challenge to come from PCs not being able to do this more than once per day so if you don't throw in enough attrition, it gets sticky.

 

Bleh! Unnecessary pre-amble. Short version is we're very early in the campaign and I have this nagging feeling that there's probably something better out there for what I want. Someone suggested the Hero system. I said: "That one with the eight-inch rule-book?" and they said "no, no, well yes, but trust me - it's not how it seems!" :)

 

So I'm looking at Hero and FH. I don't yet have FH to be clear. I want to ask a couple of things before I click buy on the books based on somebody's recommendation. So, particular things I'm curious on and haven't been able to get a feel for:

 

1. My vague awareness of Hero is as a super-heroes game system. I do believe that it can work for a generic fantasy game, swapping in spells for super-powers, etc. But how does it work for the non-magic or low-magic classes? Archers and Fighters and Paladins, etc. Does it / can it balance say some spell-casting wizard and a burly fighter all in the same party? And if so, does it do it in the same sort of way D&D 5e would do it where a fighter improves in core solid attributes like having extra hit points, harder to hit / damage, etc.? Or does it do it in a more D&D 4e way where the wizard has a room clearing ability called Fireball and the Fighter has a room clearing ability called "Barrage of Blows" but it all boils down to different flavours on the same thing. This is probably my biggest concern - I want to preserve differentiation between character types. E.g. fighter's progression is to become ever tougher and to hit people harder, magician gets more and more powerful spells and ability to control the environment, rogue gets faster and gets special ways to strike people, or dodge out of combat, etc. There was a game called Iron Heroes which I loved the class design of - you had barbarians, harriers, armigers - all of which played very differently. What I've read about Hero is that it is endlessly flexible in character development. I'm worried that this means I'll get fighters and wizards who play the same and are just described differently whereas I want very different character types. How does FH handle "classes", basically?

 

2. In rough terms, how does magic work in FH? Is it learn spells from a set list that are prepared? Is it "This round I will apply a fire effect to this area effect and that many damage dice" style of round-to-round flexibility? You'll notice that my questions are all of a theme here - how can I do D&D but better! ;)

 

3. Is there a good source of cliché monsters I can find / buy somewhere? Orcs, goblins, dragons, etc? It will take me a while I imagine before I become comfortable designing my own monsters if I get this. Must have a ready source of goblins! :)

 

4. How "high-level" does this get? I know it can scale up very well and doesn't have levels as such (I think?) but what does a game look like at a very high level compared to starting out? The same but bigger numbers on both sides or does it start to play differently? And can it keep balance between "fighters" and "wizards" at high levels of play when one is focused mainly on physical power and the other is developing magical powers the whole time?

 

Sorry - I know that's a long post. Maybe I should just buy the books and trust, but I think even if I did it would take me a lot of reading and time to really get a feel for it. My D&D 5e campaign is still very new so if I want to swap to a new system, now is probably the time to do something so drastic.

 

ALL replies are appreciated!

 

K.

 

 

Hero is a tool kit system kinda of like NWoD but more point based.

 

Hero's strength is it's weakness. It possible to replicate several styles magic from D&D vancian to Runequest. Including very original styles. And we all here have differing versions of using the power system to build spells and magic systems.

 

Yes other classes can have powers if you wish. As an example Deadly Blow with differing limitations can represent a rogue's backstabbing, a rangers extra damage, or a paladin's blow.

 

Here is the thing is you can choose powers levels for your setting  (low, mid or High) and you don't have leveling up like D&D. 

 

You can have a very rich fantasy game using Hero. But it requires a lot more work for the Game Master

Some of us  have gotten good at mimicking D&D. Some of us despise its quirks and use Hero as an excuse and not use D&Disms.

 

Understand this in a Fantasy Hero campaign everyone can use Magic or spells if you want. Just like Runequest. Or you can limit it to certain "classes". You can make magic skill based or not.

Magic could cost endurance or not. Magic could be based ley lines or essence flows like Role Master.

It is up to you.

 

There have been several D&D conversions. Each slightly different.

 

Assuming you are willing to take this challenge as DM, you need to gauge your players on several issues.

  • Hero rolls low for success on 3D6.
  • Hero has Body , Stun , and Endurance which works different than hitpoints
  • Hero as a default does not have spell resistance or saving throws, it is a different paradigm
  • Hero does not have a default random character generation system
  • No aligments

I have long argued when you start converting D&D classes to Hero some of them begin to blur together,

Paladins and Clerics are two such classes. You will find that there are some D&Disms that only make sense in the D&D system.

 

If you are willing to take the plunge it can be rewarding. But it is not for everyone.

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Having run Fantasy Hero for a long time, I wanted to add just a bit of detail on combat the way I see it, specially in the statistical differences between D&D and Hero System for Fantasy. (I think everyone else already did a good job of giving you the differences in the possibilities of the system.)

 

In D&D the measure of a character's survivability is quite often measured in hit points and armor class. You can take more blows if you have more hit points, and you don't take any damage if they can't hit you because of your armor class.

 

In Fantasy Hero (FH) there is something like that, but it scales differently. The hero system is based on skills and powers, and since FH is not super-heroic, it is more focused on skills. The more skilled you are, the more effect you have in battle. I will simplify things for the sake of the examples.

 

Hit Points:

Your average city folk or rural folk will have perhaps 5 to 8 BODY points, which represents how much damage they can take before going unconscious. They die when their BODY score goes into full negative (in this example, -5 to -8). Your average starting PC will have 10 BODY, your tough warriors may have 15 or 18 BODY. (That's a lot of BODY in FH, at least in my games.)

 

Now, consider that a heavy weapon will do 2D6 BODY damage, and a well built warrior will easily increase that to 3D6, perhaps more. A good sword strike then will possibly hit you for 6 to 9 BODY, maybe more, not including criticals, if you are using those.

 

So, how do you avoid that damage in FH? You don't get hit. How do you not get hit? Combat in FH is opposed skills. If you have a higher defensive skill than your opponent's offensive skill, it will be easy for you avoid the damage altogether.

 

Just to give you an idea, evenly skilled combatants hit each other on an 11 or less on 3D6 (which is the system's "to-hit" roll). 11 or less is pretty average for 3D6, or about 62.5%. Now, if you separate the numbers by one, 11 vs 10 , your numbers skew to 50% to hit for the lower skill, 74% to hit for higher skill. Skew them by two, 11 vs 9, and you have 37% for the low number, and 83% for the high number. By three it gets worse: 12 vs 9, or 11 vs 8, or any other combination, the difference being three: 26% for the low number, and 90% for the high number.

 

Skill makes a significant difference in how you survive in battle in FH. 

 

Armor:

Now, sooner or later, you are going to get hit. So, how do you prevent actual damage: you use armor. In D&D, armor prevents damage by postulating that instead of having hit a vulnerable part, an attack hits the protection, so no damage happens if your AC defends you. In FH, armor mitigates damage by reducing the total damage points taken by the armor's defense rating. The heavier the armor, the higher the rating.

 

For example, leather has a DEF rating of 3, while chain mail has 5, and heavy plate has 8. You can add variations to that by changing the materials, or piling on more armor layers, but the system has an encumbrance method that will slow you down and make you vulnerable if you wear too much.

 

So, a lightly armored warrior would have leather and some chain; a heavy warrior, some chain and plate; and a tank just lots of heavy plate.

 

So, with a heavy weapon, 2D6 damage, you get an average of 7 point of damage. With leather you would only take 4 BODY, with chain 2 BODY, and with plate you would take no BODY damage. The heavier the armor, the less damage you take.

 

Put it all together, and you can get combinations of skilled, fast warriors with low armor but great defensive scores, or perhaps slow lumbering warriors with much armor, but relatively little skill (relying on their armor to mitigate damage), or anywhere in between.

 

The difference between a "starting level" character and a "high level" character then is not in the hit points, but in the skills. Your low level characters may have perhaps 4 to 6 points on offensive/defensive skills with some armor on them. Your high level characters may have values in the 7 to 10 range, with some armor on them. Your elite characters may easily go into the 11 to 13 or higher range, with some armor on them, but that depends on your GM. As you may imagine, if you have, say, a offensive/defensive skill of 12, and you are surrounded by low level opponents who have offensive/defensive values of 6 (which is good for your average city guard, or savage orc), they will need a 5 or less to hit you (4.6% chance), while you will only need a 17 or less (99.5% chance) to hit them.

 

Notice, that the guard or the orcs may only have 6 to 8 BODY, while your high level PC may have only 12. The characters are mortal, no matter what. The difference is made by the skill level.

 

So, how do you get these skills? Character points. It's how you build FH characters. You buy stats and skills and special talents with character points. Low level characters may have only 50 points to buy their skills, enough to get moderate training and some special talents. Your regular FH characters will have 175 points to deck themselves out with superb battle training and a plethora of talents and specialized combat maneuvers that will make them both lethal and durable in a fight.

 

This is why FH characters are often measured as "7th Level Characters" in D&D. They have the "skill equivalent" to affect the battlefield like 7th level characters. But note, they may still just have 10 BODY. =)

 

Thus ends my discourse of Hero System combat analysis in FH. It helps to understand this part of the numbers so you can measure how D&D compares to Fantasy Hero, and how to think of what makes a skilled warrior vs an untrained stripling.

 

There are, of course, many other details, including STUN (which  may knock a character unconscious long before they reach a state of "dying"), SPEED, which measure how often you act compared to others (you may be able to attack twice, or thrice, or more, in the same time it takes your opponent to strike just once), and once you throw in magic things can change drastically for your "high level PCs", who may get hit no matter what their skill level is.

 

Hope this helps to give you more of a perspective on the system. =)

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More excellent replies. This is all incredibly helpful. I've been hanging out on the Enworld 5e forum and I can't tell you the number of "you're playing it wrong" posts I kept reading. :tsk::think:  You're all being really helpful in guiding me to achieve what I actually want.

 

MrKinster - that was a superb primer on the system and highlight the transition and comparisons from D&D.

 

So... I have purchased FCH. I'm not 100% convinced it counts as complete having read the weapons section, but for the price I can't complain and it's helped me understand the system, most certainly. It's very interesting. I've seen RPGs that are complex and have lots of detail, I've seen RPGs that are simple and don't have a lot of detail. I don't think I have ever seen a system that is so simple yet at the same time has so much detail. The blend of minutiae with elegance is a combination I've never seen to such a degree before. It's like looking at a fractal - some basic rules expanding ever outwards into ever more facts and structure without ever losing the basic pattern. It's most certainly impressive. I also have my first rules question - in the actions table where it lists Soliliquy as "No Time", that indicates cannot completed in a single turn, yes? ;)

 

Anyway, there is a lot to like about this system. I like that it has hit locations, I like that those locations can be separately armoured and that armour reduces damage rather than makes one harder to hit. That alone simplifies away a lot of odd exception rules you get in systems like D&D. It feels a little like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition (to this day one of my favourite RPGs).  Some downsides I know that one of my players will balk at having to do subtraction again and again every time she wants to hit something. It will also be a little annoying to have to roll for location after every hit. The most streamlined approach to this I ever saw was a percentage based system (indeed this was the WHFRP 1st ed. I mentioned earlier, iirc) where after checking the d% to see if you hit, then simply swapped the numbers around to see which location you hit. I.e. if you needed to score 67% to hit and you rolled 54%, then you immediately knew that not only had you landed a blow but that you had struck them in location 45. I might see if I can come up with something equivalent for this. Maybe with different coloured dice or something.

 

I don't like Complications. Or to be more accurate, I don't like them today. I've enjoyed such systems in other games, e.g. Shadowrun and think they can really add a lot to a game. But in this instance I very much want all such things to be handled as a result of character decisions in game. I have clear ideas from what I want from this campaign, I am fanatically Watsonian in my approach to gaming, to the degree that at this point I don't want in-universe story events / circumstances to be balancing factors for outside game reasons. Story has supreme primacy to me and I cannot allow an exchange rate between it and mechanical advantages, no more than I can could agree to give a player +1 to hit for showing up with cake. It's an invalid exchange to me. At least for this campaign. I recognize that I may appear like a person showing up at a fancy restaurant and then asking for ketchup with my beautifully prepared meal, but I'm afraid I am such a barbarian. From my reading, I can ditch complications without any game balance effects, yes? It's essentially just a bribe from the GM to the player to give extra points for actually engaging with the world or adding some depth to their PCs, yes?

 

I think I will have to get the Grimoire to really get a feel for this. And I think my next step is to run a couple of mock combats to help the rules stick. What's a good source of equipment - longswords, halberds, full plate, etc.?

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On Soliloquys: The Term "No Time Action" means that performing the action doesn't cost the character any part of their Phase, and it can be performed at any time, even during another character's phase. Meaning that you can mock an enemy during their phase, after they fail to hit you, without waiting for your phase to come up again. In my campaigns "talking" still takes a certain amount of time, even if it doesn't occupy a character's phase; but that was an added degree of complexity that I added to avoid players holding long tactical discussions during the 4 to 6 seconds their phases occurred in.

 

In regard to equipment... I've always thought it was strange that you can't find a write-up for Scythes in HERO System... You can find larger lists of pregenerated fantasy weapons in the Fantasy HERO Source book, there is also a section which includes a sample economy and price lists for all of the weapons.

Personally I slightly prefer my 5th edition copy of Fantasy HERO over the 6th edition copy. It is slightly cheaper to acquire in PDF on the Store; about 75% of it is exactly the same (including the aforementioned weapon and price tables), all of the literary references are more classic, and unlike Fantasy HERO 6th it doesn't resort to referencing other 6th edition books you would then be expected to own as well (specifically HERO System Skill, and HERO System Martial Arts)... although admittedly the pricing on the templates will almost all be wrong, since costs changed significantly between 5th and 6th.

There is also HERO System Equipment... but a lot of the items contained therein are modern, and will be less useful to you.

 

In regard to Spells... The HERO System Grimoire is a pretty decent source, but I do not like the way it was presented compared to certain other sources... so personally I suggest Champions Powers over the HERO System Grimoire, both will have a huge number of prewritten powers to choose from, and both will make occasional references to rules contained in other 6th edition sourcebooks. Champions Powers organizes everything by the special effect of the power in question (so Acid powers, Gravity powers, etc); the Grimoire organizes everything by the "school of magic" (so Alchemy, Conjuration, Necromancy, etc).

However, where I feel Champions Powers shines over the Grimoire is in the options and variants presented for each individual power. The Grimoire is very lazy and overly generic when it comes to the options it presents, and doesn't really give you anything useful if you don't already know the system fairly well; the options and variants in Champions Power are concrete and useful (and if you are familiar with the system, just as easily modified as those from the Grimoire)

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I haven't had time to do a test combat yet, though I'm getting my head around the basics.
 
This might be starting at the deep end but I'm trying to design a magic sword that exists in my campaign in this rules sytem. I think I'm sort of there, it's not worth its own thread I think.
 
So: A flaming longsword. It has two effects - firstly it does additional fire damage to those it strikes. Secondly, the brightness of it dazzles (not blinds) those in close combat with the wielder. However, wielding such powerful magics drains the stamina of the one who does so. As you can see, there are a lot of complications (small 'c') in this. But here is what I have so far:

Long Sword
 
(Val -1/4)  Focus, (Obvious Accessible, Easily Movable, Not Expended, Durable, Universal)
(Val -1/4)  Str Minimum 8
(Val -0)     Required Hands
(Val -1/4)  Real Weapon
(Val +1/2)  Reduced Endurance (0 END)
(1 CP)       Reach +1m
(20 CP)     1d6+1 HKA


The character must have Weapon Familiarity (Longsword) to wield or suffer -3 OCV.
 
Active Points = 21 x 1.5 = 31.5 AP
Real Cost = 31.5AP /  0.25 = 7.75 CP. (I'm guessing I round up to 8CP).
 
Now I want to make it magic! ;)
 
So first, I try to add the blinding effect. I look at Image Create Light and I look at the Blind effect. But one does too little and the other too much. So I settle on modelling it as a Characteristic bonus to DCV. I don't want to make this a game-changer. It's a thematic nice-to-have. At first, I try to simulate it with a Characteristic effect increasing DCV by 1 for 5CP. But I run into trouble when I try to make it apply to only those in HTH with the wielder. So I take another look at all this and realise I should probably be using Drain. So I add it as Drain (OCV) with an area effect. I'm not really sure about this. 1d6 is a Hell of a lot and all I really want to do is the equivalent of "-1 to hit" you might see in other game systems. Flash and Darkness also don't really seem appropriate. So I stick with what I've got for now:
 
(10 CP)     Drain (OCV)
(Val +1/4)  Area of Effect - Radius 4m.
(Val -1/4)   Limited Power - Does not work against creatures that do not rely on sight.
 
Notes on the above: The duration of Drain is Instant. I looked at Nonpersistant but it only changes durations that are Persistent. I'm really looking for a way to make this affect enemies only whilst they are looking at the wielder. The moment they turn and attack someone else, they should have no penalty to their OCV. By this point, I think I should have gone with the increase to the wielder's DCV and figured out some way of making it work with a limitation. Oh well, I'll leave it as it is for now.
 
Finally, I want to add some fire damage and add back in Endurance cost because I want wielding this sword to be taxing:
 
(15 CP)   HKA Energy (Fire)
(Val -1/2) No STR Bonus
(Val -1/4) Decreased STUN Multiplier (just seems to make sense?)
 
Demon Sword

 

(1 CP)       Reach +1m
(20 CP)     1d6+1 HKA

(15 CP)     1d6 HKA Energy (Fire)
(10 CP)     Drain (OCV)

(Val -1/4)   Focus, (Obvious Accessible, Easily Movable, Not Expended, Durable, Universal)
(Val -1/4)   Str Minimum 8
(Val -0)      Required Hands
(Val -1/4)   Real Weapon
(Val +1/2)  Reduced Endurance (0 END)

 

(Val +1/4)  Area of Effect - Radius 4m.
(Val -1/4)   Limited Power - Does not work against creatures that do not rely on sight.
(Val -1/2) No STR Bonus
(Val -1/4) Decreased STUN Multiplier (just seems to make sense?)

Aaaaaand at this point I realise I need to build this as a framework because I've got different points and I think that I need to figure out which limitations apply to both powers, which only to one, and then figure out how to build this as a... Multipower Framework? And I also realise that it's seriously late. So I'm going to post this here because I don't want to leave a half-written post of this length in the browser and trust it will still be there in the morning.

 

Am I on the right track? The system is impressive, but it's also seems rather complicated to, for example, do what is effectively the following: "This sword does an extra 1d6 damage and imposes a -1 penalty to hit on anyone trying to hit you in melee". Plus a set amount of endurance drain per phase. However, I'm sure this will get easier. I accept that I haven't really read through it all properly yet!

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Am I on the right track? The system is impressive, but it's also seems rather complicated to, for example, do what is effectively the following: "This sword does an extra 1d6 damage and imposes a -1 penalty to hit on anyone trying to hit you in melee". Plus a set amount of endurance drain per phase. However, I'm sure this will get easier. I accept that I haven't really read through it all properly yet!

 

Concentrate on this bit: '"This sword does an extra 1d6 damage and imposes a -1 penalty to hit on anyone trying to hit you in melee". Plus a set amount of endurance drain per phase.'

 

This is what you are trying to build. Everything else is irrelevant.

 

Also: how much "endurance drain per phase"?

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Demon's Arming Sword (Heroic):​ All Slots OAF Durable (-1)

Blade:  HKA 1d6+1 (Physical), Zero END (+1/2) (30 APs); One-Handed (-0), STR Minimum (12; -1/2). Cost:  12 CP.

Burning:  HKA 1d6 (Energy) (15 APs); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Blade; -1/2). Cost:  5 CP.

Blinding:  Change Environment (-1 to Sight Group, -1 OCV), Long-Lasting (1 Minute; +4 APs), Zero END (+1/2) (15 CP); Instant (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Burning; -1/2). Cost:  7 CP.

Reach:  Stretching +1m, Zero END (+1/2) (1 APs) Always Direct (-1/4), Linked (Blade; -1/2) No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Only To Cause Damage (-1/2). Cost: 1 CP.

Total Cost:  25 CP.

 

I love building things in HERO so... here you go: one flaming demonic longsword that partially blinds its victims.

You have to pay END to maintain the "Burning" effect, and you have to maintain the burning effect to trigger the "blinding" effect which causes the victim to suffer a -1 penalty to OCV and sight group perception rolls for 1 minute after being struck (being struck again resets the duration, it does not stack). This sword does not have "Real Weapon"; the demon possessing it ensures it stays sharp forever, and it will not break if the wielder is too strong to use a normal longsword (see Real Weapon; FHC 134). Since it is Heroic equipment, it does not cost CP to own, but does require the appropriate Weapon Familiarity to use effectively.

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