Character types that other game systems can't handle

[massey]

Every game system has its strengths and weaknesses: Hero's is customization and building more precisely exactly what you had in mind; no other system does this as well or easily.  All games can build anything, but they are weighted toward other strengths such as simplicity and ease of learning, simulating particular moods or settings, etc.  

 

For example, in a class-based system, to make certain types of characters requires building an entirely new class, often with  new skills and spells from scratch with no guidelines or system beyond "try to not make it more powerful than what is out there."  Again, that isn't a slam on other systems, its just noting what hero does well and those systems don't.

 

Surely there's at least as much system arrogance in claiming Hero does nothing better than any other system than to claim it does everything better.

 

I didn't say it does nothing better.  I like Hero.  I'm on the Hero forums after all.  I just said Pathfinder can build most of the characters people are mentioning.

[massey]

Can I make a Pathfinder character who had the equivalent of a 25 point cosmic VPP limited to Shape Changing magic and is a lore matter with KS: Magic 25-?

 

Sure, pretty close.  I know somebody's going to try to find some 25 point power that the following character build can't duplicate, but I'll try and build it in good faith anyway.

 

First, lots of ranks in Spellcraft,  That's the equivalent of KS: Magic.  You'll probably want a high Int, take the max ranks in the skill, get the +3 for class bonus, and then take some Feats and Traits that give you bonus skill ranks.  It's not really hard, you just have to figure out what you think 25- equates to.

 

For the VPP, take some levels in Druid to get the Wild Shape ability.  For a 25 point VPP, I'd say 6th level should probably be enough.  That'll let you change into large or tiny animals.  Maybe go to 8th so you get 3 uses per day.  Then load up your spells with things that let you change shape partially.  Spells like Animal Aspect (2nd level) or Bull's Str (also 2nd level) are your bread and butter here.  Ultimately, your magical abilities do have a charges limitation on them, but that's just part of how magic works in that game.  Within the context of the game, you've got that type of power.

[TheDarkness]

I think that, in my view, when looked at as a technology, Hero is simply a more advanced technology than D & D. This is not a slam on D & D or those who play it, it is simply a fairly accurate comment on the systems. Balance in D & D(and Warhammer, for that matter) is always ad hoc, because there is no underlying system physics. The system is a collection of random elements that are added in to construct a game, additions destroy balance, which then requires new additions to reestablish.

 

From a gaming perspective, this is a disadvantage. Those who buy the systems could not tinker too far with the setup, and, in response to that problem, more ad hoc layers were added over time.

 

Hero, on the flip side, has more ties to an underlying system physics. This makes balance easier, though, frankly, there are some ad hoc elements that confound this. Further, as a product line, Hero players are not as dependent on the product line for play, though part of this is in the types of books available often leading players to just make their own things or find ones on the internet that they can have some confidence will be balanced. So Hero, as a system, is less able to go the Warhammer or D & D route of periodically rebooting everything, changing things, and expecting the players to follow suit if they want to use the newest products.

 

Further, part of the design sytem is too complex, so the time investment seems too much.

 

However, as far as power levels, others have pointed out correctly that D & D's ad hoc approach to this is problematic. The point value of spells in D & D converted to Hero are probably not entirely off base, there is a balance issue with spell levels in D & D that is basically a way to limit or reward spell casters. Balance in D & D is an enforced norm, not a systematic approach, which means that really, you cannot make the same characters in all cases that play and feel similar AT SIMILAR POWER LEVELS. The moment to achieve the same effect you need to up the levels, and the system you are comparing to is known for balance, then probably you simply cannot do the same thing, because suddenly, to have the effective character you imagined and the game effect you wanted, you will likely also be running with party members who, if the same level as you, are now more effective.

 

Game balance in D & D is enforced ad hoc, level by level, spell list by spell list, talent by talent, and every new addition destroys this. In relation to a single character, balance skews different ways at different levels, with some levels making them have less game effect than other classes at that level, and some levels more.

 

Further, the near total non-granularity of combat in D & D simply does not allow the same feel. There is a disconnect between what the combat round actually represents in D & D and what types of actions that we may try to make into part of that round. D & D combat rounds are based around the general impression of combat more than the details, and rules that implement the details are each and every one special cases and exceptions to this, so the feel is necessarily different.

 

This is not dissing D & D, it simply is the nature of the beast. You cannot model D & D characters to have a similar feel to Hero characters without introducing major skew as far as levels, and you cannot model the combat round at all the same, they are so vastly different. You can make different types of characters for D & D, but the way they will feel and play will not be even close. They will always feel and play like D & D characters. This is not just a matter of the system, but of the class system, the ad hoc nature of levels and balance, and from the oddities that are the combat round and combat resolution, the desire of players to shoehorn specific moves into a combat round and combat system that is intentionally general and not specific, etc.

 

So, you can have a ranger in D & D, it simply will always be a different animal than one made in Hero because D & D cannot produce balance in a specific build, it must build balance in its level system and in limitations based on class. Level is itself meaningless as far as balance, it expands and contracts in relative point values when comparing effectiveness from one class to another from level to level. Level, in D&D, is the relative ability and limitation you suffer for your choice in type of character, not just a level of power that can equate to points. Therefore, there are some things you cannot make a starting character who can do that you can in Hero, because you erase the limitation that is a big part of how balance is maintained, and that is not really possible. And if one is a starting character in Hero, and one is even just 3rd level in D & D, it's not really the same character anymore, it's a character with an uncommon level of experience compared to a starting character and thus a much different history and story.

[TheDarkness]

A little more on why the combat round in D & D makes it really hard to model something well from a different system and have it feel right in play.

 

In D & D, the to-hit roll is a catchall. It involves armor and Dex and things like this. Now, the reason for this is, if the armor is good, then there's less likelihood of taking damage, if the Dex is high, there's more chance to avoid or hit.

 

This fits the generalized nature of the round. It's a fairly long round, it assumes more than one attempt at an attack, and only the most notable results.

 

However, people like choices. They like to dodge, parry, etc. Now, all these are already figured into the roll, if you aren't hit because of Dex, we would usually assume that you either dodged or parried. But it's so general, and people want choice.

 

And damage. We can assume that if a sword does just one point of damage, then it probably hit a hand. If it kills, we'll assume it hit elsewhere. We probably won't assume we killed the baddie with the most epic strike to the finger. But people want targetting.

 

And we have things like daggers, which are deadly weapons that can barely hope to render unconscious a starting mage. Well, obviously we need criticals.

 

So we get talents and such to model things, but those things are already modelled into the initial roll, so obviously this will make this character more powerful, and so other characters need options to make them more powerful.

 

And we have cleric-fighters, but who wants to split their experience? So we get paladins, who have to behave in the limits of the character they chose and get more power for it. If my fighter has a code restrictive in other ways, he will not get added power. So we need to monkey with experience thresholds.

 

This makes any comparison of types of characters and how they feel to play from D&D to a system that is not it apples and oranges. Most possible combat maneuvers are add ons that were originally figured into the to-hit roll, are still figured into it, and so add power that either is taken away somewhere else, or offset by bells and whistles for someone else or altering level requirements.

 

The backbone of D&D, or backbones, are something one has to work against to model something else. Vancian magic, generalized combat rounds, there is no ignoring their role in everything. Even things like talents, these are set items. There is a very definite way to try to model a character type from Hero into D&D, but there are a million ways to nuance the Hero version that D&D cannot do very well. Oh, you made this just slightly less good on the Hero version, I'm sorry, the talent is very specific on what bonus it gives, it no longer is a suitable way to do it. And even if one finds a different way, the play of that character will be so different, the very story of the character will likely have to be different in order to explain the difference in level required to have those talents and such, and how they play out will feel entirely different in both combat and the role play as to effectively say they are not at all the same.

 

Now, you could make a Hero Ranger with a sort of druidic magic that had the same sort of Vancian backbone. I'm not sure why. I don't know where these rangers with spells came from, or why those spells. But, you could. And the system would not be working against you. But, D&D simply does not, never has, and never really claimed to have the kind of balance to be able to build anything with it, one is always working against the basis of the spells, the basis of combat rounds, etc. At some point, you always run into, 'yeah, well, this isn't really that great a thing, but you can't have it until THIS level, and you, over there, you can't have it at all, because.'

 

D&D can be fun, but using experience level for game balance is iffy. It means that at any one point in time, there is no balance between characters, and so it is usually rewarding one player's choice in class at the time by greater survivability with another player hoping against hope to live to the later levels.

 

Making equivalents between that and Hero is not really possible, it simply changes both the build and the narrative too much.

 

Now, as far has having fun, it doesn't matter.

 

The reason it doesn't matter is as follows: once your 4 hit point magic user looking forward to making it to powerful levels dies a horrible death and your friends level up, you can jump in as an 8 hit point character looking forward to his bright future.

[TheDarkness]

In conclusion, constructs for D&D are highly referential to D&D. Constructs in Hero are highly referential to whatever outside source it came from, and can be precisely referential to them, and so D&D is not designed to model as much as give bells and whistles that give the feel of a thing in a purely D&D context.

 

I hope you appreciate my thesis and look forward to hearing your decision on whether to fund my further research. And please let me know if you wish to see my previous work, 'Lobbying for Weapon Additions for Merchandising Purposes: Game Theory as Applied to the Events of D12-gate,' as well as my Master's Thesis, ‘For Every Skaven, A Sling: The Fine Line Between Munchkinism and Just Being a Prat.'

[Ndreare]

Sure, pretty close.  I know somebody's going to try to find some 25 point power that the following character build can't duplicate, but I'll try and build it in good faith anyway.

 

First, lots of ranks in Spellcraft,  That's the equivalent of KS: Magic.  You'll probably want a high Int, take the max ranks in the skill, get the +3 for class bonus, and then take some Feats and Traits that give you bonus skill ranks.  It's not really hard, you just have to figure out what you think 25- equates to.

 

For the VPP, take some levels in Druid to get the Wild Shape ability.  For a 25 point VPP, I'd say 6th level should probably be enough.  That'll let you change into large or tiny animals.  Maybe go to 8th so you get 3 uses per day.  Then load up your spells with things that let you change shape partially.  Spells like Animal Aspect (2nd level) or Bull's Str (also 2nd level) are your bread and butter here.  Ultimately, your magical abilities do have a charges limitation on them, but that's just part of how magic works in that game.  Within the context of the game, you've got that type of power.

Stats you describe do not sound like Hands Jandus (my character I summarized above) at all. It would be a disappointing shoehorn leaving me wanting.

But this may just be a matter of taste.

 

PS a 25- is what we consider legendary, the equivalents of +28 in Pathfinder what you would have with a 20 attribute maxed at 20th level.

[Lucius]

Please see the words I have bolded.

 

Sure, pretty close.  I know somebody's going to try to find some 25 point power that the following character build can't duplicate, but I'll try and build it in good faith anyway.

 

First, lots of ranks in Spellcraft,  That's the equivalent of KS: Magic.  You'll probably want a high Int, take the max ranks in the skill, get the +3 for class bonus, and then take some Feats and Traits that give you bonus skill ranks.  It's not really hard, you just have to figure out what you think 25- equates to.

 

For the VPP, take some levels in Druid to get the Wild Shape ability.  For a 25 point VPP, I'd say 6th level should probably be enough.  That'll let you change into large or tiny animals.  Maybe go to 8th so you get 3 uses per day.  Then load up your spells with things that let you change shape partially.  Spells like Animal Aspect (2nd level) or Bull's Str (also 2nd level) are your bread and butter here.  Ultimately, your magical abilities do have a charges limitation on them, but that's just part of how magic works in that game.  Within the context of the game, you've got that type of power.

Your point of view is not invalid: "close enough is close enough." The point of view of those who disagree with you is also not invalid: "That's not close enough."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I'm too close

[TheDarkness]

In theory, what game I will have fun playing has close ties to the system choice, perhaps genre choice at the time.

 

In practice, it ties more closely to who I'm at the table with than anything else.

[massey]

Stats you describe do not sound like Hands Jandus (my character I summarized above) at all. It would be a disappointing shoehorn leaving me wanting.

But this may just be a matter of taste.

 

PS a 25- is what we consider legendary, the equivalents of +28 in Pathfinder what you would have with a 20 attribute maxed at 20th level.

Then you need a 20th level character.

 

Don't be like "hey build this one thing that has this game effect" and then say "that doesn't sound like my character". You didn't ask me to build your character. You asked for a game effect and I gave you an approximation of it.

 

Tell me about your character, without using game terms, and I'll give you a rough character build for it.

[Ndreare]

That was the nature of the topic. Hands is a 100+50 point character with 26 experience.

He is a perfect example of the type of character I can only build in Hero, GURPS, or Fate.

Other games just plain do not allow you to have legendary skills at the start. And the unlimited Shape shifting require Fiat on the part of a GM so it cannot transfer from group to group.

 

I have played Pathfinder and my experience felt like it would have been better titled Nofinder as any character concept that did not fit in a video game was invalid.

 

This was only my experience, your experience apparently was different, but your experience does not invalidate that Hero System let's players have characters they just plain could not in D&Dx or Pathfinder by the rules as written without relying on GM Fiat.

[massey]

Again, describe your character without using game terms.  All I know about him now is that his name is Hands, he can do some sort of minor shapeshifting, and he knows a lot about magic.  That's not enough to build a character.

 

The mistake is in thinking that game mechanics transfer perfectly.  The mirror image of this is when D&D guys bitch about Hero not being able to replicate Magic Missile.  "But Magic Missile always hits, it never misses, not ever!"  When you build something in another game system, exactly mirroring the mechanics isn't important.  Getting the appropriate "feel" and creating it within the context of the game and the setting are much more important.  But you aren't giving me the information to do that.

[Old Man]

So I'm reading into this "Wild Shape" thing that you mentioned and it's... really not a good fit. If you're going to "take levels in Druid", then your character is a Druid. I rather suspect that Hands Jankus or whatever could use metal armor and a longsword if she felt like it, hasn't got an unusually high Ego score, and can't cast a whole lot of spells that don't involve shapeshifting.

[massey]

So I'm reading into this "Wild Shape" thing that you mentioned and it's... really not a good fit. If you're going to "take levels in Druid", then your character is a Druid. I rather suspect that Hands Jankus or whatever could use metal armor and a longsword if she felt like it, hasn't got an unusually high Ego score, and can't cast a whole lot of spells that don't involve shapeshifting.

 

But we don't know, right?  That's my point.  Describe a character in non-game terms and then go from there.  Hero is all about reasoning from effect.  The RKA power can be a lightning bolt, a fireball, a disintegration ray, an evil curse, anything.  Ndreare basically said "can I make a character that has shapeshift powers?" and I showed how.  And then Ndreare is like "no that's not what my character is".  Well for god's sake, give me a little more info next time.  I don't know what the damn character is supposed to look like.  I'm not a mind reader, I spent my points elsewhere.

 

You can't be like "level based games cannot properly represent my character, who shall remain completely undefined."

 

I'm sure there are plenty of characters that can't be represented well in D&D/Pathfinder without jumping through some major hoops.  But for most characters it works at least reasonably well.  I'm not saying everyone has to play it.  I haven't even played it in several years, and have no plans to in the immediate future.  I'm not here to evangelize the glories of D&D.  I just think a lot of the criticism in this thread is unwarranted.  A lot of the things people have listed here are perfectly doable in those games, if you're careful about it.

 

Also, just because you take levels in Druid doesn't mean you're a druid, at least as I see it.  Disney Nature Princesses probably have levels in the Druid class, and I don't see them as traditional "druid" characters.

[Chris Goodwin]

Class-based systems are restaurant menus, while HERO System is a grocery store full of ingredients, recipe books, kitchen equipment, and cooking techniques.  Pathfinder may have a thousand different items on the menu, but we can still make things you can't order.  

[Old Man]

Also, just because you take levels in Druid doesn't mean you're a druid, at least as I see it.  Disney Nature Princesses probably have levels in the Druid class, and I don't see them as traditional "druid" characters.

My point is that if a character takes levels in Druid, he's stuck with all the restrictions and other baggage that comes along with that class. It may be fine for Disney Nature Princesses to be stuck with wooden armor and scimitars, and have high Wisdom, and be compelled to be one with nature or lose all spellcasting ability until they atone. But that's not likely to be true for Hands, or many other shapeshifter character concepts.

[Old Man]

Class-based systems are restaurant menus, while HERO System is a grocery store full of ingredients, recipe books, kitchen equipment, and cooking techniques.  Pathfinder may have a thousand different items on the menu, but we can still make things you can't order.

One thing that class systems do have going for them is if players don't know what they want to play. In that case it may be better to pick something off the value menu and call it good.

[massey]

My point is that if a character takes levels in Druid, he's stuck with all the restrictions and other baggage that comes along with that class. It may be fine for Disney Nature Princesses to be stuck with wooden armor and scimitars, and have high Wisdom, and be compelled to be one with nature or lose all spellcasting ability until they atone. But that's not likely to be true for Hands, or many other shapeshifter character concepts.

 

That's true, except there are a lot of variant classes and options in Pathfinder now.  That's why it's important to know what the original character is supposed to be like.  There may be a variant that gives you everything you want and has restrictions that don't bother you.

 

In the end, there's always D20 Big Eyes Small Mouth.  It's got lots of options and it folds in pretty easily with D&D and Pathfinder.  And it's level based.

[Ndreare]

To discribe him in better terms

 

Hands Jandus: A renowned scholar from the Library of Orin, Hands' knowledge of history and magic are legendary and he has built his career as a consultant for many of the Wizards living in Northern Lud. His clients have been known to travel hundreds of miles to consult him.

But not all things are meant to last. With the civil war and the burning off Orin. Hands now find himself out on his own.

Hands magical talents lay in the domain of biomancy and he is a highly skilled shapeshifter able to both make minor changes as needed as well as the greater aspects of the domain adopting wholly new forms.

 

 

He is basically an average person physically, however his intelligence is above what could be called normal human limits.

 

The most important game elements to be captured are;

1 Legendary Skill that he has used to make contacts across nations.

2 Shape change magic at will (charges would not be right, as he is useless in combat the other players have him scout, heal, think up tactics and perform those roles)

 

I did not intend it to seem I was attacking your build, perhaps there is a way to make him.

[massey]

To discribe him in better terms

 

Hands Jandus: A renowned scholar from the Library of Orin, Hands' knowledge of history and magic are legendary and he has built his career as a consultant for many of the Wizards living in Northern Lud. His clients have been known to travel hundreds of miles to consult him.

But not all things are meant to last. With the civil war and the burning off Orin. Hands now find himself out on his own.

Hands magical talents lay in the domain of biomancy and he is a highly skilled shapeshifter able to both make minor changes as needed as well as the greater aspects of the domain adopting wholly new forms.

 

 

He is basically an average person physically, however his intelligence is above what could be called normal human limits.

 

The most important game elements to be captured are;

1 Legendary Skill that he has used to make contacts across nations.

2 Shape change magic at will (charges would not be right, as he is useless in combat the other players have him scout, heal, think up tactics and perform those roles)

 

I did not intend it to seem I was attacking your build, perhaps there is a way to make him.

 

Okay, I can work with that.

 

We'll make him level 10.  That's pretty powerful, but not overwhelming.  Generally we'll make him a noncombat guy, more devoted to research and stuff like that than fighting.  Level 10 will make him experienced enough that he can get a lot of bonuses to skills, enough that it's worth it for people who haven't dumped everything into skills to journey long distances to see him.

 

So he's a level 10... whatever.  Something magic related.  Takes 10 ranks in Spellcraft, as well as Knowledge Arcane and Knowledge History.  We'll say he has a 20 Int, which is quite high but not crazy.  For feats, he takes Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Magical Aptitude, and Scholar.

 

So you'll get 10 for the skill ranks.  These are all going to be class skills, so you get a +3 bonus to them.  You'll get +5 to them for your Int bonus.  Skill focus gives you +6 to Spellcraft.  Magical Aptitude gives you +4 to Spellcraft.  Scholar gives you +4 to any two Knowledge skills.  So for Spellcraft, that's 10 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 4.  That's +28 to Spellcraft.  That's pretty decent.  You'll have +22 to your Knowledge skills.

 

That puts you into "really damn awesome" territory as far as your skills go.

 

We'll deal with the shapechanging when I've got more time.  There's supposed to be ways to do it with Alchemist and Summoner, but I'll admit I'm not an expert at those.

[Cantriped]

To discribe him in better terms

 

Hands Jandus: A renowned scholar from the Library of Orin, Hands' knowledge of history and magic are legendary and he has built his career as a consultant for many of the Wizards living in Northern Lud. His clients have been known to travel hundreds of miles to consult him.

But not all things are meant to last. With the civil war and the burning off Orin. Hands now find himself out on his own.

Hands magical talents lay in the domain of biomancy and he is a highly skilled shapeshifter able to both make minor changes as needed as well as the greater aspects of the domain adopting wholly new forms.

 

 

He is basically an average person physically, however his intelligence is above what could be called normal human limits.

 

The most important game elements to be captured are;

1 Legendary Skill that he has used to make contacts across nations.

2 Shape change magic at will (charges would not be right, as he is useless in combat the other players have him scout, heal, think up tactics and perform those roles)

Once again, to play the devil's advocate: The druid comes quite close to most of these marks, with the next closest being a Wizard of the school of Transmutation. There are other classes which can shapechange, but generally not for as long or as often, even in the later levels.

 

By 8th level, a Druid can use Wild Shape 3/day for up to 8 hours each time. Meaning they can effectively remain in an alternate form more or less indefinitely. This particular druid likely spent some of his Wealth by Level researching Alter Self, and the Beast Shape I through IV spells; which aren't natively on the druid's spell list. These spells, along with the healing and stat increasing magic druid's already get, help fill out the "Biomancy" theme pretty solidly. I know you said he could Shapechange "at will", but this simply isn't something that Pathfinder/D&D allows from a mechanical and game balance standpoint. In addition, it is worth noting that in Pathfinder/D&D fiction I've read, the Vancian Spellcasting system and it's trappings aren't a world element of the setting. Spellcasters never mention spell slots, or complain that they've run out of Burning Hands but that they can still cast 3 more Fireballs.

If his mental abilities are his only noteworthy ability scores, then it is entirely possible that he has 17s or 18s in both Wisdom and Intelligence by 8th level (assuming a standard array or reasonable point-buy). Assuming his INT is 16 or 17, that he is Human, and that he spent his favored class bonus on Skill Points: He has 9 Skill Points per level to invest amongst the various skills he'll need to fill the roles described above; including: Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Perception (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth, and Survival (Wis)... leaving him at least 1 skill point per level to waste on whatever other crap he is only moderately proficient in; such as a smattering of ranks in Climb (Str), Fly (Dex), Swim (Str), Profession (Tactician) (Wis)?... etc.

At 8th level, once again assuming he is human, he'll have 2 or 3 Traits and 5 Feats to spend however he chooses. Given the background above, he likely spent one of his traits to gain bonus to Knowledge (History) and make it a class skill, and another to be better at making Heal checks (there is one that allows you to "Treat Deadly Wounds" twice a day which would make much a much better mundane healer). Given his focus on shape changing he probably has Natural Spell ​(the feat that allows him to cast spells in Wild Shape), and given his background; ​Self Sufficient​ (grants a bonus to Heal and Survival), Skill Focus (Knowledge (History)), and Skill Focus (Spellcraft)​, leaving him one Feat to spend learning an exotic (or unusual for Druids) weapon, gaining Heavy Armor proficiency, or on some other ability you didn't think to include in his description but which requires a feat in Pathfinder to be good at.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Once again, yes you can build a class with generous amounts of Handwavium that lets you simulate whatever you want in another game system.  Sort of.  There's not any character type that cannot be simulated in other games that Hero does.  But there are types that Hero does well which other game systems struggle to simulate.

[Spence]

For me the issue is that leveled systems grant capability by the pound. The guy who runs Pathfinder at my local store uses a wheeled suitcase to move "just the books I need today". It literally weighs more than everything I took on a 9 mobth deployment.

 

With Hero in need one book, the core rulebook. I can literally make anything with just that one book.

 

I've played Pathfinder as well as D&D. Both are fine games. Well except 4th ed.

But they both require continuous splat book purchases to remain viable. Yes I know the "but you can restrict the players to only the books you approve" drivel. But the reality is if a player spends $50 on a splat book he is going to use it.

 

If cost and time is not a factor, then class level systems can be great.

[TheDarkness]

For me the issue is that leveled systems grant capability by the pound. The guy who runs Pathfinder at my local store uses a wheeled suitcase to move "just the books I need today". It literally weighs more than everything I took on a 9 mobth deployment.

 

With Hero in need one book, the core rulebook. I can literally make anything with just that one book.

 

I've played Pathfinder as well as D&D. Both are fine games. Well except 4th ed.

But they both require continuous splat book purchases to remain viable. Yes I know the "but you can restrict the players to only the books you approve" drivel. But the reality is if a player spends $50 on a splat book he is going to use it.

 

If cost and time is not a factor, then class level systems can be great.

This points out another issue. To build anything Hero can build in the game is to work on the assumption that the group uses every book available. Which is not most groups playing.

 

It's not a huge issue to me, mind you. I prefer less ad hoc systems, but that's me.

[Nolgroth]

Of course, we are picking exclusively at D&D and its ilk. The thread is about "other game systems" not just class/level ones. So let's get a more direct comparison. Are there character types that Hero does better than Gurps, Savage Worlds, Cortex, Cortex Plus or Fate. To be honest, Fate is sort of an unfair comparison. It is deliberately written to simulate anything, but not with very detailed mechanics. It is almost the definition of handwavium in gaming.

[Hyper-Man]

This points out another issue. To build anything Hero can build in the game is to work on the assumption that the group uses every book available. Which is not most groups playing.

 

It's not a huge issue to me, mind you. I prefer less ad hoc systems, but that's me.

The key difference is that all the extra HERO books do not actually introduce much if any actual NEW rules. They typically only provide example builds that anyone could do on their own with the core rules.

 

HM