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Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies


Brian Stanfield

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I'm going to put in a plug for my magic system here.  Multipowers and such work, but they are a bit complicated even behind the scenes.

 

I suggest a talent system that lets you buy types of magic by power levels.  You want elemental magic up to x active cost (level), then it costs you y points.  Then you buy the spells with coin like anything else (or over time learn them from sources, like getting treasure).  That's simple and quick to learn.

Bob the Wizard has magic, he learned apprentice level fire magic, novice level illusion magic, and master level summoning.  He pays points for each of those and can buy and use any spell up to the maximum power level of Fire, Illusion, and Master.  Active cost in this context only has to be a raw number of power, nobody needs to know the sausage factory of how we came to that.  Fireball does 6d6 radius explosion of 6m, that's 45 points; its a master level spell (for example).  For simplicity's sake you can just say all spells require endurance, gestures, and incantation.  Some need a focus, but only the most obvious ones (I enchant your sword to be more accurate as long as I feed it mana).

 

Simple, straight forward, and it treats spells like equipment.

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I'm sticking fairly close to the 3.5 D&D Players Handbook layout.  That should be familiar to most fantasy players and they'll see it as the "right" way to learn a game system.  I figure the first page is just a super-quick intro to how Hero works.  They can read it, get a general idea of how you roll dice and what it means, and then that gets more thoroughly fleshed out when you get to the chapters on combat and skills.

The 3.5 Players Handbook was formatted almost exactly the same way as Fantasy Hero Complete​. There were actual no game mechanics covered until well after you've plowed through Races, Classes, Skills, Feats, and Equipment. Only then did you get to Combat & Environmental rules, Magic & Spells, Magic Items, then for shits and giggles they threw in a few monsters in the back so they could pretend all you needed was the PHB. 

 

Regarding adjustment powers, active point limits, different types of campaigns, etc, no way.  No way, no how.  That's how this sort of thing balloons into a 300 page book.  This isn't a new version of Fantasy Hero.  This is just to get new people playing.  There won't be adjustment powers in the game.  Certainly nothing that targets equipment.  They don't need to know active points or anything like that.

That claim is demonstrably false, and as a design conceit is a very bad idea (in my opinion). It takes no more space to include the APs and Cost of a sword than it does to list its damage. Both ​Champions Compete and Fantasy Hero Complete​ were able to do so as a single column in their equipment tables without it turning into a miniature "Hero System Equipment Guide". Furthermore, if you ban hammer adjustment powers than any number of things become impossible or incredibly convoluted to represent. For example you can't write a ​Healing Potion​ without Healing; which not only an Adjustment power, but a classic fantasy trope.

 

We also don't need to build a game economy within the intro book.  1st ed D&D didn't do that.  It's enough for the players to know that a sword costs 25 gold, and they start with 150 gold.  The equipment costs are balanced so that the fighter can have a good sword, good armor, a shield, and a horse.  The mage can buy his spellbook and robes.  The thief can get his thief tools and whatever else he needs.  Basically it's just a way of letting people get starting equipment.  No more, no less.

The moment you write that a character starts with an amount of gold (say 150 gp for example), and that a sword costs 25 gold, and a loaf of bread costs 1 copper you've built an economy into the book. For better or worse. In that regard even the box editions had an economy, albeit a simple one. As far as a typical fantasy party is concerned, knowing what they start with, what their gear is worth, how much treasure orcs are likely to drop, and how much wine and women cost at the tavern is all the economy they actually need to have detailed. ​Fantasy Hero​ did it in 9 pages I if I recall correctly (sans stat blocks for equipment, which would just about double that page count), and it wasn't even a very complete economy; so you should expect to need about the same amount of space.

 

A magic multipower will not be a problem the way I'm thinking of it.  The mage can cast one spell per phase, unless it's something that takes extra time.  Effectively the writer of the product builds the spells and the magic system ahead of time, balances everything, and then lets the players make a few easy decisions.  They don't know they're using a multipower until they learn the full rules with the regular book, and then they're like "oh, I see how they did that now".  So there's no opportunity for abuse.

 

Let's say (off the top of my head) that you have 4 spell levels.  To cast Level 1 spells, you pay 30 points.  This gives you a 40 point multipower, with gestures and incantations (-1/2 total), costing 27 points.  It also gives you one 1st level spell (the first fixed slot in your multipower, costing 3 points).  Every additional 1st level spell costs 3 points.  It's another slot.  But all the player knows is that he's a 1st level caster, and he bought 3 extra spells, so he paid 39 points.  To cast Level 2 spells, you pay 45 points, which gives you like a 60 point multipower with a sample spell.  And so on.

 

There might also be a cost listed for each spell, if you just wanted to buy it on its own.  So if a fighter wants to spend his leftover points buying the Fire Blast spell (or whatever), he can do that.  He won't get it for 3 points, he has to pay 15 or something.  Whatever the real cost would be.  The book doesn't have to explain any of that.  Just if you pay to be a Level 1 spellcaster, each extra spell is 3 points.  If you just want one spell and only one spell, you get the "discounted" rate of buying it separately.

Don't get me wrong, Multipowers are fine for use in a magic system. Indeed, almost every example character from the Champions Superhero Gallery includes a Multipower with 3-5 Attack and Utility Powers; and I think an "Adventurers Gallery" should do the same. What I meant by problems that arise from them being the "Default Magic System" mostly have to do with fire-and-forget spells, such as ​Invisibility or Mage Armor​. Realistically such spells should not necessarily prevent you from casting other spells, yet to produce that effect mechanically using a Multipower Framework requires jumping through hoops we shouldn't be exposing newbie players to. Such spells should generally be able to be purchased outside the framework. Using things like Time Limit (as an Advantage), Uncontrolled, and Continuing Charges to cram them into a Framework without having them pop is complicated (I know because I've done it for fantasy casters before).

We've already argued about the wisdom of using "spell levels" instead of "active points" sufficiently elsewhere, since I doubt either of our opinions are changing anytime soon, I'll just move on to the next section and agree to disagree.

 

But how much flavor text does "Orc soldier" need?

Almost none, same goes for "Human Soldier" and "Tavern Wench". For those types of NPCs, a Character Brief is more than sufficient, and you can easily get two on a page, maybe even four. However an "Ancient Lich", "Cunning Vampire", or "Great Wyrm" deserve more description, both in terms of flavor and mechanics. Were I building them to standard writer's guidelines they would easily take up two or 3 pages each.

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I'm going to put in a plug for my magic system here.  Multipowers and such work, but they are a bit complicated even behind the scenes.

 

I suggest a talent system that lets you buy types of magic by power levels.  You want elemental magic up to x active cost (level), then it costs you y points.  Then you buy the spells with coin like anything else (or over time learn them from sources, like getting treasure).  That's simple and quick to learn.

Bob the Wizard has magic, he learned apprentice level fire magic, novice level illusion magic, and master level summoning.  He pays points for each of those and can buy and use any spell up to the maximum power level of Fire, Illusion, and Master.  Active cost in this context only has to be a raw number of power, nobody needs to know the sausage factory of how we came to that.  Fireball does 6d6 radius explosion of 6m, that's 45 points; its a master level spell (for example).  For simplicity's sake you can just say all spells require endurance, gestures, and incantation.  Some need a focus, but only the most obvious ones (I enchant your sword to be more accurate as long as I feed it mana).

 

Simple, straight forward, and it treats spells like equipment.

 

I think it should be simpler still.  Rip off the magic system from FH 1e, more or less.  All the spells are built to take a half-Phase to cast, cause the caster to be at half DCV, and require a Magic Skill Roll at -1 per 10 Active Points.  The total Limitation value for this is, I think, -1?  I don't have my books handy at the moment.  Maybe a note that you can substitute Limitations from a list for any of those.  Characters buy their spells as Powers at full cost.  No reduction in cost, no Frameworks.  You want a spell, you spend your points and write it on your sheet, done.

 

The only "talent" required is Power Skill: Magic.  If you want to leave open the possibility of learning spells later, buy "Latent" Magic Skill: Familiarity with Power Skill: Magic, for 1 point.  

 

In the "Here's how we grind the sausage..." section, explain how they're done, and by all means refer to FHC or 6e1/6e2 where necessary.  Also note that the full Fantasy Hero book contains additional magic systems, and the Grimoire has lots of spells, and maybe you want to pick up the Bestiary as well for more monsters...

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Well for the super stripped down intro, all you need is the spell name, roll, basic effects, and power level (active cost).  The system I suggested has the advantage of build in power "levels" which players shuld be fairly familiar with from computer games and D&D, plus types of magic which has the same benefit.  Plus, no points are needed for purchase, so the real cost is irrelevant.

 

But its not necessary, like you say you can make it even simpler and have only lower powered spells from the Grimoire available in their simplest form.  Just some basic familiar spell types, a few oddities, in a couple of groupings (druid, priest, war magic, scholar etc).  The idea would be to make them as easy to learn and figure out as possible and then refer people to the full builds.

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The 3.5 Players Handbook was formatted almost exactly the same way as Fantasy Hero Complete​. There were actual no game mechanics covered until well after you've plowed through Races, Classes, Skills, Feats, and Equipment. Only then did you get to Combat & Environmental rules, Magic & Spells, Magic Items, then for shits and giggles they threw in a few monsters in the back so they could pretend all you needed was the PHB. 

 

That claim is demonstrably false, and as a design conceit is a very bad idea (in my opinion). It takes no more space to include the APs and Cost of a sword than it does to list its damage. Both ​Champions Compete and Fantasy Hero Complete​ were able to do so as a single column in their equipment tables without it turning into a miniature "Hero System Equipment Guide". Furthermore, if you ban hammer adjustment powers than any number of things become impossible or incredibly convoluted to represent. For example you can't write a ​Healing Potion​ without Healing; which not only an Adjustment power, but a classic fantasy trope.

 

The moment you write that a character starts with an amount of gold (say 150 gp for example), and that a sword costs 25 gold, and a loaf of bread costs 1 copper you've built an economy into the book. For better or worse. In that regard even the box editions had an economy, albeit a simple one. As far as a typical fantasy party is concerned, knowing what they start with, what their gear is worth, how much treasure orcs are likely to drop, and how much wine and women cost at the tavern is all the economy they actually need to have detailed. ​Fantasy Hero​ did it in 9 pages I if I recall correctly (sans stat blocks for equipment, which would just about double that page count), and it wasn't even a very complete economy; so you should expect to need about the same amount of space.

 

Don't get me wrong, Multipowers are fine for use in a magic system. Indeed, almost every example character from the Champions Superhero Gallery includes a Multipower with 3-5 Attack and Utility Powers; and I think an "Adventurers Gallery" should do the same. What I meant by problems that arise from them being the "Default Magic System" mostly have to do with fire-and-forget spells, such as ​Invisibility or Mage Armor​. Realistically such spells should not necessarily prevent you from casting other spells, yet to produce that effect mechanically using a Multipower Framework requires jumping through hoops we shouldn't be exposing newbie players to. Such spells should generally be able to be purchased outside the framework. Using things like Time Limit (as an Advantage), Uncontrolled, and Continuing Charges to cram them into a Framework without having them pop is complicated (I know because I've done it for fantasy casters before).

We've already argued about the wisdom of using "spell levels" instead of "active points" sufficiently elsewhere, since I doubt either of our opinions are changing anytime soon, I'll just move on to the next section and agree to disagree.

 

Almost none, same goes for "Human Soldier" and "Tavern Wench". For those types of NPCs, a Character Brief is more than sufficient, and you can easily get two on a page, maybe even four. However an "Ancient Lich", "Cunning Vampire", or "Great Wyrm" deserve more description, both in terms of flavor and mechanics. Were I building them to standard writer's guidelines they would easily take up two or 3 pages each.

 

 

I think you're still missing the point on what we're talking about here.  The idea is to let a player start rolling dice without understanding how the system works.  Just let them start playing,  While you can cram in more information into a chart ("Hey guys, it doesn't take that much more space to put the active points and the real cost in here, let's just make the font a little smaller...") this sort of thing confuses the new player.  He doesn't need to know what those numbers mean.  Not yet.

 

A lot of people on this board seem to have their own sacred cows as far as the system goes.  "Oh we can't leave out XYZ.  It's not the Hero System without that!"  But this isn't the full Hero System, and it's not intended to be.  It's not even full Fantasy Hero Complete.  This is Fantasy Hero Incomplete.  This isn't a genre book, or a setting, or anything like that.  It isn't detailing a world.  This is a tutorial for the most basic aspects of the game.  That's it. 

 

During one of the editions of D&D, I think maybe 20 years ago towards the end of 2nd edition, TSR released a boxed set that was "Learn how to play D&D!"  And somebody bought it and we opened it up (we all had been playing for years, we were just curious what was in it).  It had some pregenerated characters, and a little mini-character sheet that had only the information you'd need to start playing a 1st level character.  I think they may have been printed on cards or something.  And they had rules for going all the way up to level 5.  There were like two or three little dungeons, and a monster manual.  I think the toughest enemy in it was like an Ogre or something.  Maybe there was a hatchling dragon at the end of the last dungeon, I don't remember.

 

That is what I think this game needs.  You don't need to know what abilities a druid gets at 12th level when you start playing the game.  You just need to know that he carries a staff and can talk to birds or whatever.  And at level 5 you can turn into a wolf twice a day.  That's all you really need to know when you begin.  And how to hit people.

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I should have clarified: the powers in a fantasy setting would be replaced by a list of spells. This is only, of course, for new players to get up and running in a single evening, not a long-term change to the rules. It's only a suggestion to help alleviate the brick wall that the powers section often presents for newbies to smash into. Just a thought.

 

I get that, but how are you going to play the spells if you don't include the descriptions for the relevant powers?

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I think you're still missing the point on what we're talking about here.  The idea is to let a player start rolling dice without understanding how the system works.  Just let them start playing,  While you can cram in more information into a chart ("Hey guys, it doesn't take that much more space to put the active points and the real cost in here, let's just make the font a little smaller...") this sort of thing confuses the new player.  He doesn't need to know what those numbers mean.  Not yet.

I'm not missing the point, you and I simply disagree regarding the design conceit of what new players need in a tutorial. I don't think hiding the game mechanics are going to actually help players understand how to play the game, quite the contrary. I think your approach will only teach new players how to play your tutorial, not how to play Hero System. The whole point of such a tutorial adventure is for new players to gain a firm grasp of the system's core principles and mechanics so that after the adventure is done and the GM has awarded XP, the players know what they need to know to actually spend it.

 

I can certainly agree that players don't need to know the active and real cost of a longsword to kill their first orc with it. But I don't see any benefit to leaving it out; we are literally talking about five characters which should easily fit into a tab sized column of a full page table regardless of its font size (unless you're using pt. 16 font or something). For example, "32/13" for a longsword. Those five simple characters can easily ignored until the GM and/or Player are more experienced and want to reverse engineer the longsword's mechanics so that they can buy a "+1 magic longsword", at which point those numbers become invaluable for double checking your work and learning actually the system. 

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Furthermore, if you ban hammer adjustment powers than any number of things become impossible or incredibly convoluted to represent. For example you can't write a ​Healing Potion​ without Healing; which not only an Adjustment power, but a classic fantasy trope.

Sure I can.

 

Healing Potion: (Total: 63 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Regeneration (2 BODY per Turn) (32 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> +9 REC (9 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn) (16 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4), Linked (REC; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +6 REC (6 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

This potion takes effect at the end of the Turn in which it is consumed. Roll 3d6: On any roll up to 14, the character regains 15 STUN, 15 END, and 3 BOD. On rolls of 15 and over, only 10 STUN, 10 END, and 2 BOD are regained. This is IN ADDITION to the normal recovery everyone gets at the end of a Turn and only restores these scores to full starting value; a character who had only taken 1 pt of BOD damage for example could only regain 1 pt of BOD.

 

 

More to the point of course, even if we use Healing for spells and potions that does not oblige us to also include Drain or Dispel, nor for that matter Aid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Adjustable palindromedary

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I get that, but how are you going to play the spells if you don't include the descriptions for the relevant powers?

 

I assume such a document would have a watered down description of how that specific spell worked. In practice such spells would look like D&D spells (which would help with familiarity). For example:

 

Lightning Bolt:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED) (30 APs); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  ​15 points. (1f in a multipower)

 

Would become something like: 

 

​Lightning Bolt (1st level spell):​  With a wave of your hand, and a loud pronouncement, you call lightning from your fingertips to strike you foe. Make an Attack Roll, if you hit Lightning Bolt causes 2d6 Killing Damage versus the target's Energy Defense. Lightning Bolt has a range of 150m. Lightning Bolt cannot be cast while you are grabbed, entangled, or cannot speak, and casting this spell fails if you are struck while casting the spell.  Lightning Bolt costs 1 point as a spell, or 15 points as a spell-like ability.

 

Then somewhere earlier or later on you would then have to describe what spell levels are (an arbitrary value derived from Active Points), what spell-like abilities are (powers you buy outright), and what spells are (powers which you buy through a Multipower Reserve, which itself has been hidden behind a talent called "1st Level Spellcaster" or some thing like that).

 

Then a few weeks in you'd have an entire table of very confused players when the GM finally let them actually crack Fantasy Hero Complete​, and they couldn't find half of the terms or rules they'd been using since they "started playing Hero".

 

 

Healing Potion: (Total: 63 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Regeneration (2 BODY per Turn) (32 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) plus +9 REC (9 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) plus Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn) (16 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4), Linked (REC; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus +6 REC (6 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

This potion takes effect at the end of the Turn in which it is consumed. Roll 3d6: On any roll up to 14, the character regains 15 STUN, 15 END, and 3 BOD. On rolls of 15 and over, only 10 STUN, 10 END, and 2 BOD are regained. This is IN ADDITION to the normal recovery everyone gets at the end of a Turn and only restores these scores to full starting value; a character who had only taken 1 pt of BOD damage for example could only regain 1 pt of BOD.

Thank you for this perfect example of an incredibly convoluted way to get around using Healing for a Healing Potion. I stand corrected? Did you perhaps only read the second sentence you quoted and not the first? Because I really fail to see how this is going to be helpful to a new player; I've been playing Hero for 15 years and my​ eyes glazed over trying to read that construct.

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Sure I can.

 

Healing Potion: (Total: 63 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Regeneration (2 BODY per Turn) (32 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> +9 REC (9 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn) (16 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4), Linked (REC; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +6 REC (6 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

 

How about:

 

Healing Potion.  This bottle contains three draughts of healing potion.  Each draught heals the drinker for 3d6 Normal Damage.  A draught takes 1 Full Phase to drink.  The bottle weighs 1kg full or empty, and has 2rPD/2rED and 1 BODY.  A single character can only benefit from one draught per day, but the potion will keep until used.

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I get that, but how are you going to play the spells if you don't include the descriptions for the relevant powers?

 

Include the descriptions for the spells, minus the Wall Of Code.  Like the healing potion I just posted.   

 

You don't need to know the Entangle game element in order to write up a net, nor the Radio Perception Enhanced Sense Power to write up a radio, nor Life Support for a gas mask, nor Ranged Killing Attack for a bow or a firearm.

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Yeah I'd probably do it in a format with data like magic skill roll, active cost (for relative power level), range, mana cost, etc then a short description

 

Healing Potion

Charges: 1

Weight: .15 kg

Value: 11 quatloos

Effect: heals 3d6 Body and Stun at the same time

 

Spells could have a similar layout, just the basics.  All the sausage making stuff is hidden for an intro.

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I get that, but how are you going to play the spells if you don't include the descriptions for the relevant powers?

 

You don't need to. As Massey pointed out, I think that's a blind spot we all share as experienced HERO players. All that's needed for a fireball spell is to say "it does 6d6 normal damage, takes 1/2 phase to cast, with incantations and gestures, requires a power skill roll, and costs x amount of points." It could be summed up in a few lines of text, and presented ready to play. Perhaps at the end of the magic section you could give citations for the magic systems offered in other books, and nod to the powers that are used to build spells, but ultimately a first-time player doesn't care or even need to know that it's based on a Blast at 30 AP with such and such advantages and limitations. That's for the not-basic version of the game (Fantasy Hero Complete) that this is an introduction to. Once they learn how the spells work along with other aspects of game play they'll be ready and willing to learn the intricacies of how to build spells and more with the toolbox provided in the full books.

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I'm not missing the point, you and I simply disagree regarding the design conceit of what new players need in a tutorial. I don't think hiding the game mechanics are going to actually help players understand how to play the game, quite the contrary. I think your approach will only teach new players how to play your tutorial, not how to play Hero System. The whole point of such a tutorial adventure is for new players to gain a firm grasp of the system's core principles and mechanics so that after the adventure is done and the GM has awarded XP, the players know what they need to know to actually spend it.

 

I can certainly agree that players don't need to know the active and real cost of a longsword to kill their first orc with it. But I don't see any benefit to leaving it out; we are literally talking about five characters which should easily fit into a tab sized column of a full page table regardless of its font size (unless you're using pt. 16 font or something). For example, "32/13" for a longsword. Those five simple characters can easily ignored until the GM and/or Player are more experienced and want to reverse engineer the longsword's mechanics so that they can buy a "+1 magic longsword", at which point those numbers become invaluable for double checking your work and learning actually the system. 

 

Since those numbers are all provided in more advanced form in other texts, for more advanced users, I think that Massey's point is that you don't need to give all those details that won't be used by a first-time Hero gamer. It's not for the purpose of creating a new game, or gutting the rules of Hero, but rather to simplify what is presented, with as few distractions as possible. The active points and such aren't really needed to purchase a sword for a character. All they need to know is that it does such-and-such damage. The rules for building weapons aren't needed at first, but of course a citation would be provided in FHC for those who want, and are ready, to learn more about this stuff. At which point they can look for the full build in Fantasy Hero Complete.

 

This is in no way a pronouncement that the Hero system is too complex for it's own good and needs to be saved from itself. Sorta. Beginners just aren't getting the rules as they are presented, so I suggested that maybe we should simplify how they are presented for first-timers. I think sometimes Hero gamers do in fact need to be saved from themselves because we are so used to seeing the whole system, and are used to seeing things in ways that new folks just can't see. My suggestion was that a presentation that is as simple as possible would be the best for beginners. 

 

Think of it this way: I teach an aikido class to people of all ability levels. I have to scale what I teach to 1) their experience level, 2) their ability level, and 3) their ability to comprehend what I'm teaching. I can't just throw them into a class without teaching them proper footwork, how to roll, fall down safely, etc. What I definitely, without a doubt, cannot do is treat the class as an advanced seminar on all the different applications of an array of advanced techniques. I'd lose them before they ever got the chance to want to learn more. Once they're ready I can work through those things with whomever is ready. Beginners aren't ready yet.

 

So what I'm talking about here, as a document, is that first night's "free class" to give new students the first inklings of what a class will be like. A beginner's document for Fantasy Hero, in the way I'm thinking, would be like that first class. It is excruciating for an experienced person, but a necessary first step for a total beginner.

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I think you're still missing the point on what we're talking about here.  The idea is to let a player start rolling dice without understanding how the system works.  Just let them start playing,  While you can cram in more information into a chart ("Hey guys, it doesn't take that much more space to put the active points and the real cost in here, let's just make the font a little smaller...") this sort of thing confuses the new player.  He doesn't need to know what those numbers mean.  Not yet.

 

A lot of people on this board seem to have their own sacred cows as far as the system goes.  "Oh we can't leave out XYZ.  It's not the Hero System without that!"  But this isn't the full Hero System, and it's not intended to be.  It's not even full Fantasy Hero Complete.  This is Fantasy Hero Incomplete.  This isn't a genre book, or a setting, or anything like that.  It isn't detailing a world.  This is a tutorial for the most basic aspects of the game.  That's it. 

 

During one of the editions of D&D, I think maybe 20 years ago towards the end of 2nd edition, TSR released a boxed set that was "Learn how to play D&D!"  And somebody bought it and we opened it up (we all had been playing for years, we were just curious what was in it).  It had some pregenerated characters, and a little mini-character sheet that had only the information you'd need to start playing a 1st level character.  I think they may have been printed on cards or something.  And they had rules for going all the way up to level 5.  There were like two or three little dungeons, and a monster manual.  I think the toughest enemy in it was like an Ogre or something.  Maybe there was a hatchling dragon at the end of the last dungeon, I don't remember.

 

That is what I think this game needs.  You don't need to know what abilities a druid gets at 12th level when you start playing the game.  You just need to know that he carries a staff and can talk to birds or whatever.  And at level 5 you can turn into a wolf twice a day.  That's all you really need to know when you begin.  And how to hit people.

 

In the Hero discussion page, there is a thread about what a new edition needs in which a number of us brainstormed on the concept of a powered by hero approach in which the system was used to make games, and in which descriptions would follow the sort of format the steriaca posted above for the lightning spell.

 

Within, a member actually came up with a fairly effective way to work dispels in when we were talking about spell levels and dispels. We favored making dispels for different levels and assume that they were bought at standard effect, so that all rolls would be assumed to be threes(5D6 being 5 threes).

 

Part of our rationale for 'powered by hero' was that purchases were all packages, prebuilt powers whose constructs were hidden, but could be found in supplementary material or online. The counter to the argument 'but they aren't learning the full hero system' was that it would be made clear that, if one understood the full system, one could build NEW things that would still be balanced within the sub-system.

 

Thus, players who did not immediately want the build complexity of Hero in their lives could be attracted to the game, given a taste, first a little lightning, then, when lightning no longer got them off, some knockback, and soon enough, they find themselves shaking if too long goes by without building a change environment.

 

We felt this was a better way than trying to convince people to play something they don't want to play or devote time they don't want to devote. Give the choice to play a game that does not take any longer than making simple characters in other systems, but the awareness that much more is possible, an option that is naturally attractive to GMs and players who want to mess with those GMs worlds.

 

The belief that convincing people to spend time they don't want to spend is an effective marketing strategy and then digging in one's heels and refusing to accept that what a significant portion of the market wants is entirely buildable by using the system to build a sub-system has not worked. It's not zero sum, it's not either or, both the die hard Hero building maniacs and the rank and file gamer can be drawn into the same fold.

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As for breaking things and dispels, the GM can handwave that for introductory adventures, or just not let things break yet.  Its the tutorial, it doesn't need any of that fancy stuff until people are comfortable with the system.

 

I'm kind of thinking through how the first adventure should go. Should it be classic (start with a barfight, get a map, travel to a strange place, go through rooms killing stuff, get the loot) or something more creative (start thrown into a pit, blindly work your way through a set of caves gaining equipment, then fight your way to civilization, or something like that)?  That is, would players enjoy it more as a really classic, comfortable plot or something really unique that sets it apart?

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I assume such a document would have a watered down description of how that specific spell worked. In practice such spells would look like D&D spells (which would help with familiarity). For example:

 

Lightning Bolt:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED) (30 APs); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  ​15 points. (1f in a multipower)

 

Would become something like: 

 

​Lightning Bolt (1st level spell):​  With a wave of your hand, and a loud pronouncement, you call lightning from your fingertips to strike you foe. Make an Attack Roll, if you hit Lightning Bolt causes 2d6 Killing Damage versus the target's Energy Defense. Lightning Bolt has a range of 150m. Lightning Bolt cannot be cast while you are grabbed, entangled, or cannot speak, and casting this spell fails if you are struck while casting the spell.  Lightning Bolt costs 1 point as a spell, or 15 points as a spell-like ability.

 

Then somewhere earlier or later on you would then have to describe what spell levels are (an arbitrary value derived from Active Points), what spell-like abilities are (powers you buy outright), and what spells are (powers which you buy through a Multipower Reserve, which itself has been hidden behind a talent called "1st Level Spellcaster" or some thing like that).

 

Then a few weeks in you'd have an entire table of very confused players when the GM finally let them actually crack Fantasy Hero Complete​, and they couldn't find half of the terms or rules they'd been using since they "started playing Hero".

 

Although I see your point, I see it just the opposite. Your one-line description of lightning bolt scared the hell out of my buddy who was trying to learn powers-as-spells. Your second example is what he was looking for. At no point am I suggesting arbitrary levels, reserves, or anything like that. But if the second example is explained in such a way that a player can play with spells for a few weeks, then when he goes to the HS Grimoire to look it up it wouldn't be such a shock. When he then learns what the spell is built on, he'd be able to see how the powers and modifiers work together. 

 

This is all, of course, hypothetical. All I'm saying is that the other way of doing it is simply not working for some people I know. I don't have a lot of time to work with them through all the details, so I'm just looking for a baby-step to get them over the hump and wanting to learn more for themselves. As they say in the academic world, I'm trying to encourage self-directed learners with a very few easy steps to begin.

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As for breaking things and dispels, the GM can handwave that for introductory adventures, or just not let things break yet.  Its the tutorial, it doesn't need any of that fancy stuff until people are comfortable with the system.

 

I'm kind of thinking through how the first adventure should go. Should it be classic (start with a barfight, get a map, travel to a strange place, go through rooms killing stuff, get the loot) or something more creative (start thrown into a pit, blindly work your way through a set of caves gaining equipment, then fight your way to civilization, or something like that)?  That is, would players enjoy it more as a really classic, comfortable plot or something really unique that sets it apart?

 

I like the starting blind and working your way out approach! That would take away many of the presuppositions anyone would naturally bring to a game. If you start in a tavern it would already entail all sorts of assumptions about who's there, who's fighting whom in the inevitable brawl, and why, etc. If you say "you wake up in a pit and you see three passages before you. What do you want to do?" it makes them deal with the immediacy of how the game plays.

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I assume such a document would have a watered down description of how that specific spell worked. In practice such spells would look like D&D spells (which would help with familiarity). For example:

 

Lightning Bolt:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED) (30 APs); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  ​15 points. (1f in a multipower)

 

Would become something like: 

 

​Lightning Bolt (1st level spell):​  With a wave of your hand, and a loud pronouncement, you call lightning from your fingertips to strike you foe. Make an Attack Roll, if you hit Lightning Bolt causes 2d6 Killing Damage versus the target's Energy Defense. Lightning Bolt has a range of 150m. Lightning Bolt cannot be cast while you are grabbed, entangled, or cannot speak, and casting this spell fails if you are struck while casting the spell.  Lightning Bolt costs 1 point as a spell, or 15 points as a spell-like ability.

 

Here's how I'd do that:

 

Lightning Bolt

Range: 150m        

END Cost: 3          Gestures: Yes

Active Cost: 30      Incantation: Yes

Magic Roll: -3        Concentrate: no

Focus: no              Casting Time: Half Phase

Effect: Attacks the target with a blast of electricity dealing 2d6 energy killing damage

 

Quick, to the point, familiar, all the info you need right up front.  Straight up and to the point, without any info the players don't need.  

 

And in fact if you said right up front "all spells take a half phase to cast, require incantations and gestures" with a small explanation, you wouldn't even need most of that block.  You could even get away with just "electrical 2d6 energy killing attack at range" and the GM could just decide if something is out of range if that comes up.  Good enough to get people through a single night's gaming.

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Here's how I'd do that:

 

Lightning Bolt

Range: 150m        

END Cost: 3          Gestures: Yes

Active Cost: 30      Incantation: Yes

Magic Roll: -3        Concentrate: no

Focus: no              Casting Time: Half Phase

Effect: Attacks the target with a blast of electricity dealing 2d6 energy killing damage

 

Quick, to the point, familiar, all the info you need right up front.  Straight up and to the point, without any info the players don't need.  

 

And in fact if you said right up front "all spells take a half phase to cast, require incantations and gestures" with a small explanation, you wouldn't even need most of that block.  You could even get away with just "electrical 2d6 energy killing attack at range" and the GM could just decide if something is out of range if that comes up.  Good enough to get people through a single night's gaming.

 

 

Nice. Your last point is exactly what I'm trying to suggest. I don't hate the powers, and I'm not trying to completely gut the powers in Hero. They just don't need to be the centerpiece for a beginner because they are intimidating at best and impenetrable for a newbie at worst. This shouldn't be a substitute for a fully tooled Fantasy Hero game, it's just a little taste to pique a new player's interest. It doesn't need to be complete, or even thoroughly explained in detail. It only needs to be tasty enough to make them want to learn all the rest for themselves.

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Part of our rationale for 'powered by hero' was that purchases were all packages, prebuilt powers whose constructs were hidden, but could be found in supplementary material or online. The counter to the argument 'but they aren't learning the full hero system' was that it would be made clear that, if one understood the full system, one could build NEW things that would still be balanced within the sub-system.

 

Thus, players who did not immediately want the build complexity of Hero in their lives could be attracted to the game, given a taste, first a little lightning, then, when lightning no longer got them off, some knockback, and soon enough, they find themselves shaking if too long goes by without building a change environment.

 

We felt this was a better way than trying to convince people to play something they don't want to play or devote time they don't want to devote. Give the choice to play a game that does not take any longer than making simple characters in other systems, but the awareness that much more is possible, an option that is naturally attractive to GMs and players who want to mess with those GMs worlds.

 

The belief that convincing people to spend time they don't want to spend is an effective marketing strategy and then digging in one's heels and refusing to accept that what a significant portion of the market wants is entirely buildable by using the system to build a sub-system has not worked. It's not zero sum, it's not either or, both the die hard Hero building maniacs and the rank and file gamer can be drawn into the same fold.

 

Yes. In fact, Fantasy Hero Complete keeps reminding the reader that many of the rules are optional and are not necessary to play the game right away. But in the midst of all that, in the middle of the character creation "chapter," is 100 freaking pages of powers and modifiers! Way too much information overload for a casual reader. And that's who I'm looking to hook with this document: the casual gamer who is looking for something different. There's no need to write yet another book for Hero gamers who already know the rules. This is about translating those rules for new folks who aren't invested in them yet. Handing them 100 pages of powers to wade through before they can even create a character is not really all that friendly (at least in my view).

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In the Hero discussion page, there is a thread about what a new edition needs in which a number of us brainstormed on the concept of a powered by hero approach in which the system was used to make games, and in which descriptions would follow the sort of format the steriaca posted above for the lightning spell.

 

Within, a member actually came up with a fairly effective way to work dispels in when we were talking about spell levels and dispels. We favored making dispels for different levels and assume that they were bought at standard effect, so that all rolls would be assumed to be threes(5D6 being 5 threes).

 

Part of our rationale for 'powered by hero' was that purchases were all packages, prebuilt powers whose constructs were hidden, but could be found in supplementary material or online. The counter to the argument 'but they aren't learning the full hero system' was that it would be made clear that, if one understood the full system, one could build NEW things that would still be balanced within the sub-system.

 

Thus, players who did not immediately want the build complexity of Hero in their lives could be attracted to the game, given a taste, first a little lightning, then, when lightning no longer got them off, some knockback, and soon enough, they find themselves shaking if too long goes by without building a change environment.

 

We felt this was a better way than trying to convince people to play something they don't want to play or devote time they don't want to devote. Give the choice to play a game that does not take any longer than making simple characters in other systems, but the awareness that much more is possible, an option that is naturally attractive to GMs and players who want to mess with those GMs worlds.

 

The belief that convincing people to spend time they don't want to spend is an effective marketing strategy and then digging in one's heels and refusing to accept that what a significant portion of the market wants is entirely buildable by using the system to build a sub-system has not worked. It's not zero sum, it's not either or, both the die hard Hero building maniacs and the rank and file gamer can be drawn into the same fold.

Can you point me to that thread?

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Thank you for this perfect example of an incredibly convoluted way to get around using Healing for a Healing Potion. I stand corrected? Did you perhaps only read the second sentence you quoted and not the first?

 

You're directing my attention to the sentence

 

Furthermore, if you ban hammer adjustment powers than any number of things become impossible or incredibly convoluted to represent.

 

And that seriously is the sentence I need to respond to.

 

The response is "Then 'any number of things' just won't be done in this very basic beginning introductory 'powered by Hero' adventure." No we don't NEED to have a Dispel Magic spell, nor any kind of monster able to use Drain, nor do we even strictly need to have a Healing potion. All those things are possible with the full Hero System but the aim here as I understand it to deliberately NOT present all the possibilities all at once.

 

And again I point out that even if a Healing Potion - however constructed - is included, or a spider with a poison that Drains DEX or a wraithlike monster that drains STR or CON or whatever, that does NOT obligate the inclusion of anything that Drains spells or Dispels swords and shields.

 

 

Because I really fail to see how this is going to be helpful to a new player; I've been playing Hero for 15 years and my​ eyes glazed over trying to read that construct.

 

You're right, if by "this" you mean the Power build; I don't know what your threshold for "incredibly convoluted" is but I can try to make the format friendlier....

 

Healing Potion: (Total: 63 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost)

Regeneration (2 BODY per Turn) (32 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

plus

+9 REC (9 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

plus

Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn) (16 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -2 1/4), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4), Linked (REC; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

plus

+6 REC (6 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1 1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Linked (Regeneration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

 

But you're still right that the above is not "going to be helpful to a new player" which is EXACTLY the point everyone else is trying to make; that's why the above is an example of what would NOT be in the kind of product being discussed. What WOULD be included is this:

 

Healing Potion

 

This potion takes effect at the end of the Turn in which it is consumed. Roll 3d6: On any roll up to 14, the character regains 15 STUN, 15 END, and 3 BOD. On rolls of 15 and over, only 10 STUN, 10 END, and 2 BOD are regained. This is IN ADDITION to the normal recovery everyone gets at the end of a Turn and only restores these scores to full starting value; a character who had only taken 1 pt of BOD damage for example could only regain 1 pt of BOD.

 

 

Which hopefully would be useful. The prospective new player needs to know "drink this, wait to end of Turn, get these benefits." They don't need to know it's a "Focus" in game terms or on "Charges" - they already know it's a potion so they intuitively understand it's in a bottle, it can be stolen or broken, it can only be used the once, etc.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

seriously just because we know a palindromedary is possible doesn't mean it's mandatory to have a palindromedary in the starter kit.

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Healing Potion

This potion takes effect at the end of the Turn in which it is consumed. Roll 3d6: On any roll up to 14, the character regains 15 STUN, 15 END, and 3 BOD. On rolls of 15 and over, only 10 STUN, 10 END, and 2 BOD are regained. This is IN ADDITION to the normal recovery everyone gets at the end of a Turn and only restores these scores to full starting value; a character who had only taken 1 pt of BOD damage for example could only regain 1 pt of BOD.

 

 

Which hopefully would be useful. The prospective new player needs to know "drink this, wait to end of Turn, get these benefits." They don't need to know it's a "Focus" in game terms or on "Charges" - they already know it's a potion so they intuitively understand it's in a bottle, it can be stolen or broken, it can only be used the once, etc.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

seriously just because we know a palindromedary is possible doesn't mean it's mandatory to have a palindromedary in the starter kit.

 

I think perhaps that your original post was misinterpreted as being an ernest attempt at presenting a healing potion. I took it to be an over-the-top, humorous example, although it was a little lost in the context of the longer post.

 

This makes it much clearer what you intended, and thank you. This is exactly an example of what I'm looking for: the powers can be "hidden" yet still be intuitively understood for future application.

 

In all honesty, I was thinking of actually using spells from the HS Grimoire by their given names, but without all the build information. So to address Cantriped's concern, although a beginner might not actually be learning the powers, if they're directed to the Grimoire they can look those spells up and learn about how to actually build things with the powers. But this should be a next-level concern for a beginning player. If the over-simplified beginning stuff is still consistent with the more advanced, official RAW, then they won't have to re-learn terminology, etc. They'd apply their intuitive first use of spells to their study of how power builds work.

 

Thank you Contrived for making this point in this and other posts. It really is important, as you point out, to not convolute things with "baby terminology" that then has to be re-learned in the larger rulebooks. I can't find the other threads right now, but they are bring up good points!

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