Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Brian Stanfield]

I agree.

 

Although I've only played in one 5th edition D&D session, and therefore cannot comment on its level of game balance... I did really like the basics of the new character generation system: Selecting Race, Background, Class, and Class Archetype gives a fair range of different characters; from the publisher's standpoint it also gives them lots of discrete parts that can be expanded upon without upsetting the balance of the other parts too much.

 

Also, this is Fantasy Hero​; do we really have to inherit the fantasy-race glut that D&D suffers from? Is it a sin to present example characters as being Human by default? In may experience, most D&D players don't actually care which race they picked, they are just selecting the option for the game elements associated with it anyway (such as a bonus to the ability score their class/concept needs most).

Personally I'd prefer to allow the GM to decide if they even want their world to have elves and dwarves at all. "Building" characters from a gallery that includes racial and professional templates built on similar point totals will give players used to D&D familiar packages to choose from, while still giving the GM room to tweak the material somewhat to their preference.

 

I was just having this same discussion with my friend when I was trying to teach him Fantasy Hero. We were discussing what sort of game setting we wanted to create, which only added to the overload he was experiencing. But it was interesting that he intuitively understood that anything could be built in the setting we created, even if he didn't understand how just yet.

 

He was always bothered by how easily the races seemed to get along and live with each other. He was more interested in creating a primarily human world, but with cultural differences that were distinct. We had fun talking about the possibilities, but it also overloaded me because now I had to create an entire world for us to play in.

 

So, just as we discussed about player overload, there is GM overload as well. I think you don't need to rationalize anything for an introductory document. It's just a way to get over the hump and start playing. Then, once you learn what you're doing (more or less), you can restart with more rules, or rebuild what you've already done in a fuller setting, or create backstory as you go (like a story-telling approach) and add new rules or game elements as they become relevant.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is completely off topic, but it has always bothered me that people think the various races are homogeneous.  By that I mean, elves are elves everywhere and speak the same language. Dwarves are dwarves everywhere and speak the same language.  Sure you have like wood elves, but all the wood elves are the same.  Its silly.  Even within 10 miles in England, English human beings can speak a language so different they barely understand each other.  Scotts, Cornishmen, Welsh, and English all lived on the same fairly small island with very distinct differences in culture.

 

I've always tried to address that in my game world, to make things different when you go different places.  They even look different; these elves have longer ears, dark coloration, short. These elves are taller and greenish, etc.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think Brian S and Christopher T, that is where the glut of subraces comes from. We want difference in this race so lets make a sub-race. Brian how does the races easily get along? Since Tolkien Elves and Dwarves dislike each other and the other fantasy games I've seen its the same thing. That and Humans are the main race.

[Lucius]

This is completely off topic, but it has always bothered me that people think the various races are homogeneous.  By that I mean, elves are elves everywhere and speak the same language. Dwarves are dwarves everywhere and speak the same language.  Sure you have like wood elves, but all the wood elves are the same.  Its silly.  Even within 10 miles in England, English human beings can speak a language so different they barely understand each other.  Scotts, Cornishmen, Welsh, and English all lived on the same fairly small island with very distinct differences in culture.

 

I've always tried to address that in my game world, to make things different when you go different places.  They even look different; these elves have longer ears, dark coloration, short. These elves are taller and greenish, etc.

Culturally homogenous species bother me when it doesn't make sense, but not when it does make sense.

 

Suppose for example one continent is discovered and opened to colonization from another, and Elves and Humans settle it. Then for whatever reason the new land is cut off for a thousand years.

 

When contact is re-established, the Humans will not speak a mutually intelligible language and their culture is likely to be very different. But when Elves from the new continent meet Elves from the old continent, it's "Hi big brother. How's mom?" Because for them, it's been less than one lifetime. But for the Humans, it's been many generations.

 

Similarly, if a group were widely spread but few in number and maintained close ties - a "diaspora" situation - they might manage to retain some degree of unity in language, religion, and culture. I see the Ulronai in Turakian this way for example, you can run into one anywhere but they'll all speak the same language.

 

But yes, in many cases it's hard to justify what I've heard called a "monoculture." If Goblins have short lifespans, breed quickly, are numerous, and are widely spread, they will almost inevitably have numerous cultures and languages, unless some other fantastic element is at play such as a God or pantheon actually speaking to them frequently and always speaking in their ancient tongue, or their culture is actually encoded in them genetically (or in some fashion equivalent to genetics.)

 

But it is striking when you have lots of Human nations and cultures and languages but for all non-Humans there's only one per customer. For the long-lived or the geographically restricted it's believable to me, but for short lived fast breeding and widely spread peoples, some kind of explanation is called for if they're all the same linguistically and culturally.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that I'm participating in thread drift again, blast it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Here is another question. How different must a culture be to represented in a game to be relevant? I live and grew up in PA. I have some PA Dutch tendencies which throw off my wife. (she's from Erie area). I know what it means to red up your room. I eat scrapple and pickled pig stomach (tripe). Does that mean that those idiosycancies must come.out in.a game where say American would.suffice?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm concerned more with fiction than game settings, but yeah minor stuff can come up.  This is really a separate topic, though.

[Lucius]

Here is another question. How different must a culture be to represented in a game to be relevant? I live and grew up in PA. I have some PA Dutch tendencies which throw off my wife. (she's from Erie area). I know what it means to red up your room. I eat scrapple and pickled pig stomach (tripe). Does that mean that those idiosycancies must come.out in.a game where say American would.suffice?

Answering only for our purposes in this thread (i.e. an introductory product) we should want to keep things as simple as possible. The closest we should get to splitting cultural hairs is a handful of "background packages" with a few Skill, and maybe not even that much.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Background: Palindromedary Herder

[Christopher R Taylor]

Some minor character traits (very slight psych comps, distinctive features, Social comps etc) would do.  Not on the level of a major disad, but a 5 point thing "considers work play" or "heavy accent."

[Brian Stanfield]

I think Brian S and Christopher T, that is where the glut of subraces comes from. We want difference in this race so lets make a sub-race. Brian how does the races easily get along? Since Tolkien Elves and Dwarves dislike each other and the other fantasy games I've seen its the same thing. That and Humans are the main race.

 

Fair question, and I of course thought about that very example while I wrote it. heh, heh. Don't mind the man behind the curtain . . . .

 

But really, any time I've ever played D&D we had elves, humans, and half-elves (who are hate by both humans and elves), dwarves, and whatever else, with no consequences. I think that is more like what we're talking about here in this example. And nobody ever looks sideways at a halfling. It's when we started getting guys who were dragon born walking into remote human bars and chatting that I realized I had to get away from D&D again.

[Cantriped]

Fair question, and I of course thought about that very example while I wrote it. heh, heh. Don't mind the man behind the curtain . . . .

 

But really, any time I've ever played D&D we had elves, humans, and half-elves (who are hate by both humans and elves), dwarves, and whatever else, with no consequences. I think that is more like what we're talking about here in this example. And nobody ever looks sideways at a halfling. It's when we started getting guys who were dragon born walking into remote human bars and chatting that I realized I had to get away from D&D again.

Always look sideways at the Halfling; failure to do so all to often results in missing coin purses.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fair question, and I of course thought about that very example while I wrote it. heh, heh. Don't mind the man behind the curtain . . . .

 

But really, any time I've ever played D&D we had elves, humans, and half-elves (who are hate by both humans and elves), dwarves, and whatever else, with no consequences. I think that is more like what we're talking about here in this example. And nobody ever looks sideways at a halfling. It's when we started getting guys who were dragon born walking into remote human bars and chatting that I realized I had to get away from D&D again.

I would like to politely point out that that is a Gm problem not a system problem. I can have 300 pts in complications and if a GM doesn't enforce, then they don't affect me.

 

Now pertaining to this project. I would have maybe 3 complications per character that are fairly easy to explain as to what they mean.

[Brian Stanfield]

I would like to politely point out that that is a Gm problem not a system problem. I can have 300 pts in complications and if a GM doesn't enforce, then they don't affect me.

 

Now pertaining to this project. I would have maybe 3 complications per character that are fairly easy to explain as to what they mean.

 

I meant to say something about that too. Whoops. So, yes, it's a GM problem for sure. Really, my experience in D&D is that nobody is roleplaying anymore, they're just trying to min/max their characters and don't role-play their weaknesses. This is a GM thing, sure, but it's also the people playing the game as well and what they expect. But I think the point that everyone was debating is how to rationalize lots of races in a beginners' game where there won't be a lot of background material, etc. Just making dwarves, elves, dragonborn, whatever, is interesting, but it's not very nuanced when you don't have the setting in which to situate them. 

 

That being said, I'm all for offering variety, as long as it's not overwhelming to beginners. A few easy racial template variations is good enough for a beginning adventure. Who cares if there is a 1,000 year history between elves and dwarves when it's your first adventure. Worry about that stuff when you need to come up with a more complete setting, at which point everyone will probably want to create new characters anyway, now that they hopefully know what they're doing. Right?

 

I think for complications it makes sense to have a list of pre-made complications that fit with the racial and professional templates, and then just a few others to give some options. The complications aren't really all that hard, and don't take up that much text space either. But I think your suggestion of 3 sounds about right, although I think it makes more sense to say 25 points, or whatever, as the game does.

[Old Man]

Fair question, and I of course thought about that very example while I wrote it. heh, heh. Don't mind the man behind the curtain . . . .

 

But really, any time I've ever played D&D we had elves, humans, and half-elves (who are hate by both humans and elves), dwarves, and whatever else, with no consequences. I think that is more like what we're talking about here in this example. And nobody ever looks sideways at a halfling. It's when we started getting guys who were dragon born walking into remote human bars and chatting that I realized I had to get away from D&D again.

Odd races are a function of setting. There's nothing wrong with a campaign set in the fantasy equivalent of Mos Eisley, where everyone is a freak. For purposes of a basic FH book, however, including elves and dwarves would probably cover 95% of the players who like to play non-humans. I wouldn't want to include too many races since we're already having trouble getting "basic" FH down to an unimposing size.

[Cantriped]

Don't forget Goblins! Newbie GMs gotta have something they can throw at the players which they can kill without question. Personally I really love running goblin encounters, so much so I sometimes get mocked by my players for loving goblins too much. Although really, Undead make much better encounter fodder since they are just as frequently intelligent, and there are fewer moral debates surrounding whether its racist to treat them as unconditionally evil and kill them on sight.

 

Of course... if were running in a generic realm with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Goblins... it begs the question of what is wrong with the Kingdom of Grischun (the sample FHC Campaign Setting)? It was well written, contains all the "requisite" fantasy tropes, while giving a few things unique and interesting flavor (like goblins), it tells you exactly which templates from FHC to use to represent all of the world elements is describes, and it even includes a sample adventure.

 

The only things I didn't like were about the Kingdom of Grischun:

The magic system's emphasis creating things. Although to be fair it is so vaguely defined there isn't actually anything preventing you from playing a more "traditional spellcaster" in the Kingdom of Grischun.

That there were no example characters truly fit to run as is in the Kingdom of Grischun. This is a problem easily remedied by the creation of a 175-point Adventurer's Gallery with 6-8 archetypes, and an appropriate array of skill sets and racial templates.

[Brian Stanfield]

Don't forget Goblins! Newbie GMs gotta have something they can throw at the players which they can kill without question. Personally I really love running goblin encounters, so much so I sometimes get mocked by my players for loving goblins too much. Although really, Undead make much better encounter fodder since they are just as frequently intelligent, and there are fewer moral debates surrounding whether its racist to treat them as unconditionally evil and kill them on sight.

 

Of course... if were running in a generic realm with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Goblins... it begs the question of what is wrong with the Kingdom of Grischun (the sample FHC Campaign Setting)? It was well written, contains all the "requisite" fantasy tropes, while giving a few things unique and interesting flavor (like goblins), it tells you exactly which templates from FHC to use to represent all of the world elements is describes, and it even includes a sample adventure.

 

The only things I didn't like were about the Kingdom of Grischun:

The magic system's emphasis creating things. Although to be fair it is so vaguely defined there isn't actually anything preventing you from playing a more "traditional spellcaster" in the Kingdom of Grischun.

That there were no example characters truly fit to run as is in the Kingdom of Grischun. This is a problem easily remedied by the creation of a 175-point Adventurer's Gallery with 6-8 archetypes, and an appropriate array of skill sets and racial templates.

 

Very nice. I hadn't given it much thought, but you are right. Really, all we need is something to get beginners through a handful of adventures. Then they and their GM would have to decide on what the next step would be: run with Grischun, do Turakian Age, their own setting, etc. But by then they'd be ready to tackle something like that, and that's really what I'm trying to accomplish. Just an "over the hump" type of initial exposure to Fantasy Hero to get them hankering for more, which would give them the desire to want to read the rules more thoroughly. 

 

And then they can begin to argue over how to build half-dwarf nautical super-mages . . . .

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, some pregen characters, a few simple encounters building up to a climactic adventure and thruogh the process a step by step tutorial on how to play.  We worked it out in the Champions Begins to work something like this:

 

Session 1: rolls and characteristics, how to fight and what the stats mean - OCV, DCV, damage dealing, speed chart

Session 2: skills, how to interact with the world besides combat and spending experience

Session 3: the environment, breaking things, complications

Session 4: Endurance, recovery, and healing -- full character sheets

Session 5: Mental powers and presence

Session 6: putting it all together with a full character, spending a smaller amount of xps

 

We had the idea of coming up with "experience blocks" that people could pick from as they went through each session, each "block" emphasizing various aspects of each new session's focus.  The concept being starting out pretty weak, but getting large portions of xps to build from so you advance rapidly and get a feel for how a character can grow, until a full point character at the end.

[massey]

Remembering back to when I first started Champions in the long ago times, I remember several questions I had after I'd finished reading the (then, much smaller) rulebook.

 

 

What are good stats for me to have?

How tough is a tough character?

How powerful is XYZ fictional character?

How do I build this particular thing I want?

 

 

None of these questions were answered in the rulebook.  Eventually I looked at lots of published characters, and fooled around with the game, and played with several different GMs, and eventully I answered all my own questions.  But not everybody is willing to devote a year or two of gaming to learning how to make stuff in a new system.  If I hadn't been like 17 at the time,with zero commitments, I'd have never learned it.

 

An intro book should not only teach players how to play, but it needs to take a position consistent with other Hero products on how the world is constructed.  My first Champions character that I ever built was based on Venom from the Spider-Man comics.  So I didn't know what was good and what was bad, stat-wise, so he ended up with like a 50 Dex and a 50 Con, all through an Independent Focus.  And he had 10 Ego and 10 Presence because I didn't know what those stats did.  The second character I made was a guy with an Iron Man suit, and he had a 10 Dex because I didn't understand that it was important to have OCV and DCV.

 

I think a chart at the beginning that explains what the stats mean, relative to the game world, would be enormously helpful.  The intro book shouldn't be afraid to define things for the game world.  While Hero is a toolkit, people need to be able to see a finished product so they have an idea of where they're going and what to expect from actual gameplay.  Too many options for constructing the game world can leave someone paralyzed by indecision.  You could even have a little sidebar where it says "this book presumes that you are using a classic fantasy RPG world.  But the Hero System doesn't require that.  The elves presented here resemble elves that exist in other game systems and in many fantasy novels.  But you could just as easily have elves that are short and fat and bake cookies in trees, if you wanted to.  The Hero System allows for as much variety as you want to use."

 

But have a chart that gives new players an easy to understand reference for how good certain things are.  Label it "how good is my character at this?" or something.

OCV 0 -- you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if you were standing inside it

OCV 1 or 2 -- you suck at playing catch

OCV 3 -- you have the accuracy of a normal person

OCV 4 -- you have rudimentary training in using a weapon

OCV 5 -- you have the weapon skill of a decent professional soldier

OCV 6 -- you could be an instructor at a military academy

OCV 7 (etc)

 

While these things are normally campaign dependent, it's really helpful to establish a baseline for an average campaign and then let the players know what that baseline is.  It isn't fun to have one guy who thinks his 5 OCV is awesome, and another guy who thinks his 15 OCV is just "pretty good".

[Cantriped]

Well, there is the Characteristic Benchmark Table (CC 20; FHC 24). Though I really wish CC/FHC had also included the Character Ability Guidelines Table from 6th Edition since it gave benchmarks for numerous elements based on character point value. For example, 175-point Standard Heroes are expected to have:

Char 10 to 20  |  SPD 2 to 4  |  CV 3 to 7  |  DCs 3 to 8  |  APs 15 to 50  |  Skills 8- to 11- (30 to 75 CP worth) |  DEF (rDEF) 6 to 10 (3 to 5)

[Brian Stanfield]

Well, there is the Characteristic Benchmark Table (CC 20; FHC 24). Though I really wish CC/FHC had also included the Character Ability Guidelines Table from 6th Edition since it gave benchmarks for numerous elements based on character point value. For example, 175-point Standard Heroes are expected to have:

Char 10 to 20  |  SPD 2 to 4  |  CV 3 to 7  |  DCs 3 to 8  |  APs 15 to 50  |  Skills 8- to 11- (30 to 75 CP worth) |  DEF (rDEF) 6 to 10 (3 to 5)

 

Yes! This was the one glaring omission which my buddy picked up on right away. He kept looking for the chart because I kept telling him it existed. I just hadn't noticed it didn't actually exist in Fantasy Hero Complete. I like that the older character sheets actually had the beginning base characteristics listed on them. I'm thinking of redesigning a new sheet to give those baselines for an average PC.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The trick would be to come up with a visually useful way of presenting it that doesn't make eyes cross when they read it.  And to make it flexible enough that people don't feel as if they are locked into something.  I mean there's no reason a character cannot have 5 STR as a 175 point character, so that needs to be well established in addition to suggested optional guidelines to consider when making a character.

[Brian Stanfield]

The trick would be to come up with a visually useful way of presenting it that doesn't make eyes cross when they read it.  And to make it flexible enough that people don't feel as if they are locked into something.  I mean there's no reason a character cannot have 5 STR as a 175 point character, so that needs to be well established in addition to suggested optional guidelines to consider when making a character.

 

True enough, but again those would be more specific campaign guidelines that a GM would create for a longer campaign. Something built for a few introductory adventures doesn't need to have too much of a rationale other than, "This is typical for starting characteristics, but your GM may adjust them for a longer campaign."

 

I like your Champions begin post above. Do you have a discussion going about that? Can you point me there?

 

One problem I have is that it maybe breaks things down too much, although I'm sure you have good reasons for that. Would you be doing each session with a pre-gen character, or would each session be done with only the characteristics discussed? Can you actually have a battle on the first session without an understanding of Recovery and things like that? I only ask out of ignorance and not as a full critique. It seems like session 6 is more like what I was thinking, with the other sessions explained more succinctly and clearly in an introductory text.

[massey]

The trick would be to come up with a visually useful way of presenting it that doesn't make eyes cross when they read it.  And to make it flexible enough that people don't feel as if they are locked into something.  I mean there's no reason a character cannot have 5 STR as a 175 point character, so that needs to be well established in addition to suggested optional guidelines to consider when making a character.

 

I think just giving a little chart for each of the stats would work.

 

 

 

Str

Str 0 -- You require assistance to lift your head off a pillow

Str 5 -- You are as weak as an old lady

Str 10 -- You have the strength of a normal healthy adult

Str 15 -- You are stronger than the average soldier

Str 20 -- You are the strongest guy in your village

Str 25 -- You pose on the covers of fantasy novels while wearing a loincloth

 

Do something like that for each of the stats.  Then have your partially pregenerated characters ready for players to pick from.  Build the intro adventure so that the players can't really go above the max campaign damage level, and can't go below the ineffective damage level.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like your Champions begin post above. Do you have a discussion going about that? Can you point me there?

 

 

Right here.   Its pretty similar to what we're doing here, but Champions-focused.  I think we'll be able to get it done this year in the summer.

 

I think just giving a little chart for each of the stats would work.

 

 

I agree, rather than an expected range per level a few notes for each stat to help put them in perspective would work.  This would be for book 2 of course, after the pregens and the tutorial.

 

[Brian Stanfield]

Right here.   Its pretty similar to what we're doing here, but Champions-focused.  I think we'll be able to get it done this year in the summer.

 

 

I agree, rather than an expected range per level a few notes for each stat to help put them in perspective would work.  This would be for book 2 of course, after the pregens and the tutorial.

 

 

So are you thinking of doing something like this for Fantasy Hero as well? I'd love to do some work on something like this, but I'm working on a dissertation right now which is a huge time suck. So it won't get done any time soon. But if you were to do it . . . .

[Christopher R Taylor]

Eventually, but its going to be down the road a spell.  Maybe next year.  I'd want to do it sooner, but I have my own projects and life gets in the way, and the Champions Begins thing.  If someone else were to step up and do the heavy lifting I'd be glad to help as much as I could.