Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Joe Walsh]

That's coming along very nicely! I like the comments you put in there about how HERO helps you to reinforce the thematic attributes of the character you want to build.

[Lucius]

 

You're saddling a player character with a Dependence that's measured PER HOUR??!1

 

Lucius Alexander

 

that drug better be as common as a palindromedary tagline in a Lucius Alexander post

[Scott Ruggels]

 

 

I've arbitrarily broken the stats up into two categories.  This is just simple presentation: tell someone Hero has 17 stats with no other context and they'll boggle.  Make clear a bunch of it is pretty much for combat only and they'll have an easier time (just like no one considers HP and AC as D&D "stats").  Don't have any movement info there yet, though, and I'll be including a brief note about selling back stats as well.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer%201-2.pdf

 

(Also, I had a bunch of characteristics costs in the earlier pdf wrong due to copying and pasting: those are fixed).

I have shown the two introduction documents to a Hero novice this morning, and with a survey sample of one (1), preference has been to the Fantasy hero primer.  The only suggestions were to put a Strength chart  in there somewhere.  I do think that there should be stat charts that describe assumptions on how they translate to real life. Strength, lift, carry, "is like" listed in a simple  grid chart.  same for dex and same for speed and others. maybe.

 

Where I am coming from:

 

Until very recently i as active on Second Life, there, running a business selling useable WW2 aircraft and some science fiction weapons to the denizens of that virtual world. while a lot of that time there was "work", in that i was constructing models, importing them and adding textures, a lot of that was downtime, and that was spent being social, standing around in alien environments, chatting with a group of other avatars about various topics.  Often, especially with my German business partner, Kalle, we talked about tabletop gaming, as he is a very enthusiastic gamer, and LARPer. So we would trade old timer stories in the group, and that generated interest from other folks. Apparently there are a lot of former and current RPG players on Second Life.  Talk moved to action when Kalle invited me to Roll20.net. he had convinced a few other folks from second life to play a game of FATE. Now I found FATE Awful, and decidedly unsatisfying, because i am not a showman, or much of an entertainer. Fate was more of a performance, than a "game" to me, so I was uncomfortable, and thankfully Kalle noticed, for we switched to Pathfinder. 

 

I am comfortable with social gaming on computer, and living in Los Angeles, but without a car currently, I found Roll20.net to be a useful tabletop simulator, and a hub for games, because from that  first FATE game, the groups have blossomed into 5 other campaigns, though, not FATE. This has been the most gaming I have been doing since the mid  1990's., often playing with people that were born AFTER I stopped the first time. Roll20 has the capability of supporting Hero, but the support is not there yet. The two main systems that they support on the platform are 5th ed D&D, and Pathfinder, with strong showings by a few other games like Shadowrun and a few others. Roll20 itself provides  maps, die rollers, and various GMs tools. With a premium membership, Gms get many more tools, map sets, counters, and access to a scripting language, which is what was used to create the dynamically updating, multi-page character sheets, that are used int he pathfinder game.  These sheets, mimicking the paper sheet in appearance , track buffs, debuffs and ammo usage, real time, and the character counters/tokens, if clicked, have a health bar, and can track current Armor class, Hit Points and such, with editable, pop out, numbers. The GM can adjust the options to show what is hidden and what is not, as well.  If one is looking for new blood, outside of game stores and conventions, roll20  is a place with a worldwide audience and a growing number of players. It's a place to play, without having to drive. all one needs is a decent computer, and internet capable of transmitting voice. roll20 does have voice tools, but they tend to drop or glitch, unlike the map and character sheet interface or the chat window, so we have used TeamSpeak (free), or Skype (mostly free) to carry the voice portion of the content.

 

What I Need.

 

if I am going to run Hero for folks on Roll20.net, I need, at minimum  a finished copy of Xotl's Hero primer Document 9or something like it). Of the two documents i have show my test subject. Xotl's had the most rapid comprehension and positive impact. these are fairly experienced players and good roleplayers, but i don't want to scare them off, and want to obscure the slopes of the learning curve with some choice words and introductory simplicity.  I would also need the Character Generation program, but then I would have to take time and hand build each character while on voice with each player, separately. Background materials i can provide, as this may just be a restart of an old campaign so NPCs and locations and maps are already done (mostly). but mostly what i need are materials that introduce the game to novice Hero players that are freely available. 

 

What  Would Be Nice.

 

If someone could program the back end in Roll20 Scripting language to make a dynamically updating character sheet, plus have the values on the sheet also reflect the values on the player token as they do for pathfinder, even better.

 

What i can provide

 

Though i am working full time, these days, i can provide a small amount of B/W art if need be. However if i am paid i can provide more. XD.

 

Why This Might be important.

 

As was stated above, pessimistically, with the current Hero economy, it has no shelf space, it has little presence at conventions and the player base is aging.  The system has a rep for being scary complex and intimidating and some in the gamer intelligentsia, believe it's crunchiness is positively antique in the face of things like FUDGE, and FATE, and those One Die minimalist systems. I think that, if that complexity was "Black Boxed" into the character sheets, and the basic  system was presented  smoothly, the system may have a future on Roll20.net.  Already there, you have hex overlays, tons of free, and premium 9for pay) basic artwork to use a map background. Plenty of token artwork is available, and the game information can be displayed as a searchable sidebar. In this situation, one not need a lot of layout, or paste up, and the need for art is alleviated. with experience GM here on thi forum, colonizing Roll20.net, it might be a lot easier (and cheaper) to introduce new people to the system to insure its survival for at least a few more years.  we all know why this is a good system, and a great game. This could be the way to show others.

 

Thoughts?

[TheDarkness]

I think you have a lot of good points there, and my small experience on roll20 impressed me greatly.

 

If I might, perhaps the group working on this, before going longer on a thread with a broader topic, might want to make a thread dedicated to the project to lessen that amount of side chatter and make one storage place for all the notes?

[Xotl]

You're saddling a player character with a Dependence that's measured PER HOUR??!1

 

Lucius Alexander

 

that drug better be as common as a palindromedary tagline in a Lucius Alexander post

 

Heh, I was wondering if people would note that.  It's not so much the frequency (though Hero's frequency model for dependencies is a bit crazy, I find), but the damage.  I intend to replace that with something else later.

[Scott Ruggels]

I think you have a lot of good points there, and my small experience on roll20 impressed me greatly.

 

If I might, perhaps the group working on this, before going longer on a thread with a broader topic, might want to make a thread dedicated to the project to lessen that amount of side chatter and make one storage place for all the notes?

Well I put it out as a suggestion. 1.) to illustrate how and where something like the Primer would be very useful 2.)where and alternate source of newbies were.  Sure, this can be split off on it's own topic if you would like. So a new thread for a project to Colonize Roll20.net?

[TheDarkness]

Comments on comments:

 

That way the characters are ultimately fully usable for Hero play, but the information never shows up until the reader is certain they want to dive into that on their own.  It still could still scare them off, but at a certain point we need to just admit that Hero can be complex, this is the way it works, and let the reader judge for themselves if the system is right for them.

I think putting the actual builds in an appendix is a great idea.

 

On the issue of 'eventually, they need to know the system is complex, and if they don't want to deal with that, maybe it's not the system for them', I think, for gameplay, it is not that complex, it's builds that are complex, and there's nothing to preclude a player who wants prebuilds from playing, or, for a halfway point, to provide lists of prebuilt powers to choose from. Different gamers like different aspects, Hero's problem is that it cannot attract gamers who are not that big into long and complex character generation, but that generation is not the game itself, it is a product of making as flexible and balanced game as Hero. Ease that burden for them, and they can get to the fun play.

 

Gameplay wise, any player playing a modern rpg(or D&D) is perfectly well prepared for the complexity level of game play in Hero. If THAT is too complex, then they probably aren't interested in rpgs in general.

 

Further, prebuilds and prebuilt packages are perfectly playable with other Hero stuff. The only caveat is that they won't be quite as effective, given that they don't take advantage of every nuance, but that could be a motivator to delve more deeply into the system.

 

[TheDarkness]

Well I put it out as a suggestion. 1.) to illustrate how and where something like the Primer would be very useful 2.)where and alternate source of newbies were.  Sure, this can be split off on it's own topic if you would like. So a new thread for a project to Colonize Roll20.net?

And for the overall project of adapting the game approach.

 

Experience has shown me that threads titled like this one means that over and over, people will come on asking for why bother to do this, or why do it this way. This thread could be the place where that might go on, while a thread titled "Fantasy D20 project Thread" or something like that, where it is clearly task oriented, would likely face less of that.

 

After all, we already have notes within this thread from three different threads on the topic(with the other threads cited somewhere in this thread). If we had a central thread that all useful info was copied into or made its way into, it might make this all easier, and less good ideas will slip through the woodwork.

 

Sweet Zeus, I'm sounding like a project manager!

 

[scurries off and fills out the necessary paperwork to make his job look absolutely essential despite the entire project naturally occuring on its own without him]

[Hugh Neilson]

Funny you should mention that...my attention was drawn to the Hero System "Lucky 7th Ed" thread this morning, and we had a lot of discussion about "easy entry" games "powered by Hero". Much of which is the same as we come to here.

[Scott Ruggels]

Funny you should mention that...my attention was drawn to the Hero System "Lucky 7th Ed" thread this morning, and we had a lot of discussion about "easy entry" games "powered by Hero". Much of which is the same as we come to here.

I should probably go look at that.. This on top of starting a new thread? Wow, it's going to be a busy week. XD

[Xotl]

I've updated the main pdf again.  This time I've bridged the two separate smaller ones together by including a discussion of skills, abilities, and complications.  I also finished off the characteristics section with a brief discussion of selling back characteristics, and the comparison table.  This is now the full first twelve pages:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

Rather than using the one straight out of Hero 6E, I made a new characteristics comparison table.  Mine has a few minor alterations in terms of layout (for instance, I changed the "Competent" category to "Superior", because Competent didn't really feel like a step up from "Skilled").  The main difference is that I replaced all the entries with data drawn from the 6E Bestiary, to ensure that players are drawing on canon Hero stats (and to remove non-thematic entries like computers and whatnot).  I also made sure to include an entry for every stat; the one in Hero 6E leaves out a bunch of stats.  If you can find anything in the Hero Bestiary that swims 5-6m, I'd appreciate you telling me: it's the only entry that's missing, and that's bugging the hell out of me.

 

Anyways, based on this it looks like pages 13-15 would cover the last character.  From there I think I'll tackle equipment (with a few magic items), the combat rules, and then running through a sample scenario.  I'd end with a few more sample characters (single-pagers--not going through the full build and discussion process), a mini-bestiary (orc, city guardsman, and a few other staples, and a mention of the Hero System Bestiary), and then the appendix with a summary of the full power rules and fully legal builds for everything in the primer.  Maybe a mini-wizardy section too, giving a player fireball, sleep, and few other magical staples (and a mention of the full Grimoire).

 

Anything else people think absolutely must be there?

[TheDarkness]

Funny you should mention that...my attention was drawn to the Hero System "Lucky 7th Ed" thread this morning, and we had a lot of discussion about "easy entry" games "powered by Hero". Much of which is the same as we come to here.

I actually linked to that thread on this one, because I remembered our discussion.

 

That said, I can't recall what page of this thread I did that on. Not too far back, I think, but I did have a three week vacation in which I didn't think of Hero.

 

Okay, I'm lying. I had a three week super recovery built with a charge of once a year. Total munchkin build, but I'd do it again, given the chance. Unfortunately, my GM won't go for it. Worse, he keeps running the same campaign, day after day, and doesn't even provide snacks.

[Cantriped]

Okay, I'm lying. I had a three week super recovery built with a charge of once a year. Total munchkin build, but I'd do it again, given the chance. Unfortunately, my GM won't go for it. Worse, he keeps running the same campaign, day after day, and doesn't even provide snacks.

What is up with that GM's!? His idea of radiation accidents are no fun!

[Lucius]

Anything else people think absolutely must be there?

A few things from a quick once over (I'm sorry, giving it less than it deserves right now, might take a closer look later.)

 

One thing that OFTEN trips people up in Hero and is thus stumbling stone that ought to be pointed out if not removed, is the relationship of Move and SPD.

 

SPD is the number of actions you take in a Turn. Movement, such as "Running 12" is how far you move when taking a full move. A full move is one of the actions you can take in a Turn. Yet for some reason people are surprised that increasing SPD without changing Running means they now outrun a normal SPD 2 person, or to find that something with a Running of 8 can catch them because it has a higher SPD.

 

I dislike the statement that Complications are mandatory - they're not technically, but for a "primer" it may be a useful compromise to make them so. In fact, I am not sure they shouldn't be put ahead of even Characteristics, and get their own Digging Deeper section. Hero has always presented Complications last, and I think it may have contributed to seeing them as a kind of afterthought, not an essential part of defining the character.

 

The description of Hunted should include the option of "Watched." In fact, I would like to see the priestess character have a Watched either by the Goddess, or by the religious heirarchy.

 

The way Physical and Psychological Complications are presented here may be oversimplified. In a game in which literacy is the norm for example, illiteracy is a PHYSICAL Complication, because even though there's nothing wrong with the body, it's an obstacle that can't be overcome no matter how well you make an EGO roll, nor can it be overcome by a Mind Control. But perhaps I am nitpicking - still, I don't like including matter that will later have to be flatly contradicted.

 

I don't understand why the reptilian warrior, who is unlikely to be able to pass as anything else, has a Disguise Skill. If the idea is to demonstrate freedom from class restrictions, perhaps something more likely to be useful, like Lockpicking, could be used?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Distinctive Features - has a palindromedary

[Xotl]

One thing that OFTEN trips people up in Hero and is thus stumbling stone that ought to be pointed out if not removed, is the relationship of Move and SPD.

SPD is the number of actions you take in a Turn. Movement, such as "Running 12" is how far you move when taking a full move. A full move is one of the actions you can take in a Turn. Yet for some reason people are surprised that increasing SPD without changing Running means they now outrun a normal SPD 2 person, or to find that something with a Running of 8 can catch them because it has a higher SPD.

 

Absolutely.  I'll be covering that in the Combat section.
 

I dislike the statement that Complications are mandatory - they're not technically, but for a "primer" it may be a useful compromise to make them so. In fact, I am not sure they shouldn't be put ahead of even Characteristics, and get their own Digging Deeper section. Hero has always presented Complications last, and I think it may have contributed to seeing them as a kind of afterthought, not an essential part of defining the character.

The description of Hunted should include the option of "Watched." In fact, I would like to see the priestess character have a Watched either by the Goddess, or by the religious heirarchy.

 

Corrected/clarified the above (I thought Complications were mandatory; thanks for the catch).  Dominika is already at her points total for complications and (more importantly) I can't fit another complication on her record sheet.

I don't understand why the reptilian warrior, who is unlikely to be able to pass as anything else, has a Disguise Skill. If the idea is to demonstrate freedom from class restrictions, perhaps something more likely to be useful, like Lockpicking, could be used?

 

That's like saying you don't know why a human has disguise when they'd be unable to pass as anything else.  The Digging Deeper section on the right mentions it in passing (and mentions pickpocketing as well to help convey freedom from "class" skills), but basically I wanted to get across the idea of how things work in a multi-racial world.

 

PDF also updated with a two-page section on mundane and magical weapons and armour.

[Chris Goodwin]

I dislike the statement that Complications are mandatory - they're not technically, but for a "primer" it may be a useful compromise to make them so. In fact, I am not sure they shouldn't be put ahead of even Characteristics, and get their own Digging Deeper section. Hero has always presented Complications last, and I think it may have contributed to seeing them as a kind of afterthought, not an essential part of defining the character.

 

 

Corrected/clarified the above (I thought Complications were mandatory; thanks for the catch).  Dominika is already at her points total for complications and (more importantly) I can't fit another complication on her record sheet.

 

 

They're not mandatory to take, but you don't get the matching points if you don't take them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

6th edition complications confuse me, they don't appear to actually give you points at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

One approach to Complications would be to give every character 150 points and a requirement for 50 points of Complications. If you wish, you can spend some of your 150 points on "Reduced Complications". Then every character has 150 points, although one may have 15 points of "Reduced Complications" and 35, rather than 50, points of complications.

 

Not RAW, but the same end result.

[Chris Goodwin]

RAW, you are given a total point value and a value in Matching Complications.  For every point you don't take in Matching Complications, you are allowed one point less in total value.  

 

The rule didn't change between 5th and 6th, but the wording became confusingly upside down and backwards.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the way its presented now it looks like you get points, and then there are complications you can take that are on the side but do not affect the points.  Which does not help make any sense and I don't understand the reasoning behind the change.

[Cantriped]

6th edition complications confuse me, they don't appear to actually give you points at all.

Thankfully, we are discussing Fantasy Hero Complete​​, and not The Hero System 6th Edition. Although they are both supposedly the same edition, the former is thankfully much clearer in this regard...

In ​Fantasty Hero Complete​, it defines "Starting CP" and "Maximum CP With Complications" on page 12. For example, it states that a Standard Heroic character has a Starting CP value of 125, and a Maximum CP With Complications value of 175. Further, the example on page 12 makes it quite clear that the 125 points is what you get regardless of complications (even if you choose to have none), that the remaining 50 CP must be matched by an equal number of Complication points, and that you can have more complications but don't get any additional points for them. On page 154 it describes that Experience can be used to buy-off Complications. Doing so is not quite the same thing as having fewer complications to begin with, but the end result is the same.

[Xotl]

Updated again at the standard link with the third and final full-build/walkthrough character, a rogue.  That's 17 pages.  I think I'll aim for 32 pages, which I think should be pretty doable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah the way its presented now it looks like you get points, and then there are complications you can take that are on the side but do not affect the points.  Which does not help make any sense and I don't understand the reasoning behind the change.

The reasoning is similar to the name change. Often, "Disadvantages" were perceived as something for GMs to exploit and players to minimize. The objective was to present these not as a character detriment but another aspect of your character that suggests the type of challenges you want your character to face in the game. In other words, not something you HAVE to take so you will be at a competitive power level, but something you WANT to take, both to better define your character and to drive the type of challenges that will occur in the game.

 

I can't say how well it worked. Existing Hero players already had their mindset, and read complications as "a new name for disadvantages". If new player say "cool, I can flesh out my character and drive some of the action" rather than "ugh - I have to weaken my character if I want more points", then it succeeded.

[Xotl]

Okay, continuing to work on this here and there when I have time.

 

I've removed the Characteristics Comparison table for the moment.  I still think it's very useful (especially since FHC doesn't have one like it), but now that I plan to add an appendix, I think it's better placed there than dropping a giant full-page table on readers just three pages in.  It's clearly reference material, rather than something you need to know for the walkthrough in progress.

 

I've also added the first three pages of the combat example.  There's no mention of exactly how many opponents are there because I haven't decided that yet: I'll add a number once it's all done, in order to make everything work out exactly as I want.  As always, feedback on what's there and any ideas of what should come next (especially cool ideas that show off the best of Hero System combat) would be appreciated:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

[Brian Stanfield]

Okay, continuing to work on this here and there when I have time.

 

I've removed the Characteristics Comparison table for the moment.  I still think it's very useful (especially since FHC doesn't have one like it), but now that I plan to add an appendix, I think it's better placed there than dropping a giant full-page table on readers just three pages in.  It's clearly reference material, rather than something you need to know for the walkthrough in progress.

 

I've also added the first three pages of the combat example.  There's no mention of exactly how many opponents are there because I haven't decided that yet: I'll add a number once it's all done, in order to make everything work out exactly as I want.  As always, feedback on what's there and any ideas of what should come next (especially cool ideas that show off the best of Hero System combat) would be appreciated:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. I've been busy. You mention in the "Digging Deeper" section on magic for Dominika that you'd have an example of extra END bought for spell usage, but I'm not seeing it. Am I just overlooking it?