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Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies


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Bear in mind it's from 3rd edition, using Hero as a sort of house system rather than universal.  It doesn't even include the Powers rules, and it has its own specialized build system for mecha weapons.  But those 12 pages are freakin' gold.  

 

I just looked at the quick rules for the Robot Warriors robot battle, and you're right: they are freakin' gold! THAT is the model I'm interested in simulating, I think. I'm going to work on that over the summer and see how it goes. Thanks for that lead, Chris!

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I just looked at the quick rules for the Robot Warriors robot battle, and you're right: they are freakin' gold! THAT is the model I'm interested in simulating, I think. I'm going to work on that over the summer and see how it goes. Thanks for that lead, Chris!

 

Funny thing.  I own and still have that book from when it came out originally, and played the heck out of it back in the day.  I also bought it on PDF when Hero Games first put it in the store.  I was an experienced Hero gamer when I got it (all of maybe a year and a half) and didn't need that section, but it's been in the back of my mind all this time.  It was this thread that led me to look at that specific part of that specific book for inspiration.  

 

Bear in mind that that section simplifies combat even further than I think we want.  For this project, I don't it's necessary to oversimplify it that way; we can present OCV vs. DCV, combat maneuvers, phased combat and movement with DEX and SPD, and so on.  

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Funny thing.  I own and still have that book from when it came out originally, and played the heck out of it back in the day.  I also bought it on PDF when Hero Games first put it in the store.  I was an experienced Hero gamer when I got it (all of maybe a year and a half) and didn't need that section, but it's been in the back of my mind all this time.  It was this thread that led me to look at that specific part of that specific book for inspiration.  

 

Bear in mind that that section simplifies combat even further than I think we want.  For this project, I don't it's necessary to oversimplify it that way; we can present OCV vs. DCV, combat maneuvers, phased combat and movement with DEX and SPD, and so on.  

 

Yes, but I like that they were unafraid to break the mold of other products. In fact, they say right up front that it was stripped down, and a lot of other stuff could be found in other books. I like that they were honest about that, especially with the basic intro. There needs to be more than that. 

 

My feeling is that we need to get "them" in the door to see how it works, and then send them off on their own to look up all the other details they may have questions about, because there are so many sources out there! I think a character gallery is a good idea, and then combat explanations, and then send them on their way. The next section could look at creating characters from templates, with deeper explanations in a way similar to what Xotl has done, with an appendix with all the stuff to look at. Every step of the way should be documented with other books, etc., so that when questions arise people can look up the information as needed. There is no need to dump all the information on a newbie right away: just give him enough to play with so that his questions actually refer to something in his experience. Otherwise, it's information overload. 

 

You were right about that little summary. It's a perfect model, and although stripped down, it is an excellent starting point for complete newbies. I'd really like to create something that gets people learning and playing in a single evening.

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Agreed! This is wonderful. I prefer to use the "subtract roll to determine DCV hit" method, but this is a very accessible summary.

 

I don't like the "subtract the roll and then see what DCV you can hit" approach, but I see it's utility. A GM doesn't want to give away the DCV to a player, although they always figure it out within a few attacks anyway, right?

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I find that players grasp it a lot better than the other approach, but that could just be the ones I've dealt with.

 

I think for me it might have to do with my D&D background: THACO give you the number to roll, in the same way that OCV - DCV gives you the target number. But the more I think about the "new" method, the more it makes sense to me. OCV - your roll makes it intuitive that you want to roll low so less is subtracted from your OCV, which helps people get used to the "roll under" mechanic. Plus it keeps the DCV more hidden from the player, which is more sensible. I play to describe it both ways, although it's not really all that hard either way.

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Thank you very much for the kind words.  If you have any ideas as to how it could be specifically improved to meet what you had in mind, I'd be happy to hear it.

 

Also, if anyone is planning on downloading this, the links all expire on 15 Mar, since Dropbox is shutting down its public link service at that time.  I last updated it today (minor typo fixes).

 

I missed getting this file, would anyone be willing to post it to the Downloads section on this site?

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EDIT: file deleted, now that it's been uploaded to the main site.  Get it from there.

 

 

By the way, please don't let me be a wet blanket for what you've done! I don't want this to be the thing that suddenly makes everyone dog pile with critiques, or to make you doubt what you'e done. Don't try to change anything for me. Your vision is your own, and it's a dang good one! I hope everyone is inspired by this!

 

Missed this earlier.  Not a wet blanket at all: people shouldn't post things for criticism if they don't want criticism.  There were lots of good comments in this thread, yours included.  Thanks for taking the time to go over it.

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/eye2cr3axykrf06/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf?dl=0

 

I thought they were disabling their puslic link sharing service entirely, but basically it just meant you had to change all your links.  Still annoying as all hell, but at least the service is still usuable.

 

If you've downloaded it before, get it again, as I continually made little changes, typo and point fixes, etc (timestamp for the last update is 10:51).

 

 

Missed this earlier.  Not a wet blanket at all: people shouldn't post things for criticism if they don't want criticism.  There were lots of good comments in this thread, yours included.  Thanks for taking the time to go over it.

I just want to say that this is sterling work. Very clear, gorgeously laid out, pitch-perfect level of detail for what you're setting out to achieve. It's proving very useful to me already.

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I just want to say that this is sterling work. Very clear, gorgeously laid out, pitch-perfect level of detail for what you're setting out to achieve. It's proving very useful to me already.

 

Very glad to hear it.  I read your thread, linked to by Brian, and used some of your frustrations to make the text clearer (like "rolling" vs "result", normal damage vs. killing damage, and so on).

 

Please note I've updated it again, for what I hope is the last time (I missed a spot where I used the standard Hero 6th edition costs for OMCV/DMCV, vs the cheaper FHC costs, as well as a couple of other very minor things).  Link is the same above.

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There's a cost difference?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary never told me that

 

I had the same reaction.  Both Champions Complete and FHC use 3 pts per, whereas Hero System base uses 5 pts per (error on my part).

 

 

I wish I could make my How To Play HERO System document look like yours...   :weep:

 

Heh, thanks.  It's just using generic MS Word, so anyone should be able to do it.  Text boxes, page borders, Book Antiqua font, and just a splash of colour here and there.  Avoiding underlining.  Also actively using whitespace: a lot of guys tend to overcram stuff into a page, but that makes it look overly busy.  It helps when you have someone as amazing as Martin McKenna to draw art from, as well. :)  If you want any other specific pointers, I'd be happy to offer some.

 

I'll definitely upload the final pdf to the site.  I just wanted to keep it just in this thread for a while to make sure that I'd ironed out all the errors and formatting tweaks, first.

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Finally read Xotl's primer doc for the first time (yes, I'm a bit behind - haven't been real active in the forums here recently).

 

Nice stuff! Makes me tempted to write up something similar for use in Heroic Level "Normals" type of games, such as Pulp Hero, as those kinds of games tend to be where i have most of my Hero-newbies at the table. With the general lack of powers and magic for those types of games, it would be an even simpler document I think.

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