Jump to content

Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies


Brian Stanfield

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 471
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

But is that a problem? Or simply a niche? I love Hero precisely because it's the only RPG that really gives me the freedom to design whatever wacky shit my players & I dream up. I recognize that makes it intimidating for newbies, and I agree that some "Powered By Hero" type books that focus more on presenting the sausage and less on detailing 137 different ways to make sausage is going to have broader appeal. But anything that loses the open-ended toolbox is going to lose me. You don't have to lead with the full toolbox; you can be smarter about how you present the toolbox; but personally I still want access to the whole kit in one place.

 

And while whining about the lack of good settings/campaign books for Hero is a popular pastime here, let's also acknowledge that most of the setting/campaign books Hero has published haven't sold worth crap. We can relive the many different reasons why that is - I don't think we've had that argument yet in 2017. ;) But the reality is that if we (collectively) don't buy the settings Hero puts out, it's hard to blame Hero for not putting out more of them.

 

Don't worry! Keep in mind, I started this thread with the idea that beginners are having a hard time learning all the rules. I don't want to replace the rules, I just am looking for a way to re-skin them for beginners to learn in a very quick and easy way. The powers, while making HERO awesome, are also overwhelming. My buddy's face literally went blank when he hit that part of the book. I tried to explain that everything in the game is built with the powers (monsters, spells, weapons, etc.), and he hit a wall. He understands it in principle, but really just wanted some easier baby steps to help ease him into the game. 

 

As a GM, I know that's my job, and as you say this is an ongoing argument. What I'm interested in is not whether the rules are good (they are), but what are some of the things newbies are looking for to help simplify the learning process. I'm really just looking for a first step to encourage them to then want to go on and learn more about he powers and how the building process works. The idea is not to dump the toolbox, but rather strip things down for a Fantasy Hero Beginner (as someone else has called it) to act as a way into the toolbox. My plan is to come up with something that will reference the larger rulebooks, and ease a transition into the larger world of HERO System.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To add to this discussion, I will talk about the areas that I personally struggled with (and in some cases am still a little hazy).To be clear I own Fantasy Hero Complete, I purchased the PDF from here.

 

* Damage Class. I read about Killing Damage and Normal Damage and resistances to that damage (physical defenses against Normal Damage, resistant defenses against Killing Damage). That wasn't too hard to grasp. But as some point in the book it started talking about DCs and seemed to skip the process of converting from DC -> Killing or Normal Damage (1DC = 1D6 Normal Damage, 1DC ~= 1/3 D6 but not really...; or 3DC = 1D6 Killing Damage if I remember correctly). I actually didn't figure that out, assuming I have it right, until searching the forums and reading about other people asking about it.

 

* Calculating the cost of powers. This was a big one, the rules in FHC do not seem very clear in many cases. Active Points = ( Base + Adders ) x (1 + total of add advantages ); Real Points = Active Points / (1 + total of all limitations). Now figuring out exactly what the Adders, Advantages and Limitations are turned out to be more tricky than I would have expected. To compound the problem the formula isn't super easy to find, even when I knew where to look.

 

Honestly that's it for me. Combat seems clear, its a bit different from Gurps - mainly in the way turn order occurs and how speed is handled - but its not bad. It seems to me that Damage types and Powers are so critical to the system that the book needs a lot more examples and it really needs to make the wording itself much clearer.

 

That said I am going to use the system for my next campaign because I wind up building the world, culture and customizing the system for my games anyway - with Hero that customization is really emphasized. So my criticisms are not towards the system itself but rather the documentation.

 

Hi ArcaneArchitect. Thanks for your input! I really am hoping we can get some more beginner involved in this so I can figure out what needs to be included in a beginners' guide. 

 

The Damage Classes thing is something that is based on Active Points, which is how they are defined in FHC 183, but unless you see the chart that usually goes with this in other books, it's hard to grasp. DCs for Normal Damage are generally in d6. DCs for Killing Damage are in increments of thirds of a die (1d6, 1d6+1, 1 1/2 d6, etc.).

 

Also, unless you totally understand how the powers work with Active Points, the DC stuff sounds like gobbledygook! So learning the powers is a huge hurdle for newbies. As you say, they are essential to the HERO System, but they are hard to wrap your head around as a beginner. And the info is spread all over the place so that, unless you're used to how Hero lays its book out, you feel a little lost. Or a lot lost.

 

Which is why I started this thread. I'd like to come up with some sort of skin for Fantasy Hero to act as an introduction, in very basic form, for beginners. I'm thinking templates for classes and races, a simple magic system with pre-generated spells without the power-build information (although with plenty of references to other books to help facilitate the transition to building them yourself), a weapons and equipment list, and a basic setting that can be easily added to. 

 

Then whole idea is to help create characters in a very short time, and then a handful of encounters in the setting to get everyone going as quickly and easily as possible. What do you think of this kind of idea? What do you see as the essential information that absolutely must be presented (and what can be cut for a basic introduction). I'm curious what a beginner who is still wrestling with Fantasy Hero Complete thinks about these things.

 

Welome, and thanks for your input!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is variation within it, but firstly that variation is greatly reduced compared to Hero. A 10th level wizard might have higher or lower hit points than average, but they'll be within a reasonably predicatable margin. Secondly it doesn't really matter if there are outliers so long as you know they are outliers. If somebody can say "30hp is very low for 5th level fighter" then the problem has actually been solved because the problem isn't someone having low hit points for a fighter (at least the problem we're discussing isn't), it's someone building a character, faced with a sea of points costs for different abilities and not knowing if they've spent a lot of points on Body, not enough points on Body, etc.

 

This is what my buddy struggled with. Apart from the starting values, he was lost with regard to what was "good," what was "great," etc. He understood he couldn't be great at everything, but he couldn't even grasp what "good enough" was yet. Of course, that's an experience issue, but perhaps some examples would help.

 

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that Hero is a great system, but needs some newbie-friendly context and power guide front and centre. Maybe that can be separated out into "Complete" books so that you maintain a programmer's reference and "powered by..." duality. That would probably actually be good business because I can well see people buying one of the Completes and then getting the Hero books for more depth and customization. Or maybe it should be in the core books. I don't know. The advantage of doing it in genre-specific books is that you can fine tune the examples beautifully. Imagine the Damage Class table with examples alongside the levels saying things: "soldier's sword-blow, bite from a tiger", "kick from a horse, an ogre's club", "the firebreath of an ancient dragon". And over in the Hero Modern book you have "a kitchen knife", "heavy pistol", "high powered rifle", "anti-tank missile" and such.

 

The "powered by Hero" idea is interesting and has come up several times in other threads. I like that. I also am thinking of a skin that can be used to translate the material in a very basic way, as an introduction to Fantasy Hero. Like a first step into the larger world of Fantasy Hero Complete, which is also another step into the larger world of HERO System core rules. 

 

 

I honestly don't think it would actually take that much. The rules system is elegant and consistent. People just need a starting point because there's so much of it. Even just a front page introduction something like the following might be a big help:

 

"Welcome to Hero. Hero is a system that can support many different levels of play and infinite genres. You can build anything with it from a character that can throw (and take) a punch, to a godlike being that can hurl bolts of plasma with their bare hands. In many places in the rules you'll see values for damage, endurance, a character's strength and so forth. Because Hero supports a wide range of play, it's good to know what these numbers mean in context. Take a look at the tables on page XX and YY to get a feel for this."

 

Or it could be at the start of character creation (which might be better). But anyway, just a thought.

 

I like this too. I'm thinking lots of this kind of summary and reference would help. Would it be better as an introductory few pages giving an overview of all the terminology, or is it better to give it at it comes up, understanding that some terminology hasn't been covered yet? What do you think would be the most useful presentation of something like this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean to be rude, but a book like that wouldn't be for you. It would be for newbies. An intro book is for intro players. "Champions Begins" or "Fantasy Hero Begins" would be designed to introduce a new group of players to the Hero System in a bite-sized fashion. You don't need that because you've been playing for years.

 

A Fantasy Hero setting that had monsters, and magic spells, and cool world background, has to 1) catch the interest of prospective players, and 2) present the rules in a way that doesn't turn people off. We haven't had a book like that yet. Since it would be written in the Hero System, you wouldn't wven need to see the nuts and bolts of it to be able to change things.

 

If you saw "3D6 killing, area effect 8m, Target gets half defenses, casting time one turn, requires speaking and arm movements, requires material components", you'll know what that is. You'll be able to see the man behind the curtain, so to speak. But there's no need for a new player to have to see all that stuff yet.

 

This is more like what I'm talking about. It's not that I want to eliminate rules. I want to present the basic rules so that new players can have a fun new experience, and then want to learn more.

 

I remember the Basic D&D set (the little red book), and it was perfect. It was simple, only a few choices, and then an adventure or two. And then came the Expert set, and more rules. The first module I remember was The Keep on the Borderlands, which added a few more rules as it introduced the setting. Plenty of adventures there. And by the time Advanced D&D came out, I was hungry for more rules! This is the path that I want to try to recreate for Fantasy Hero.

 

So easy first-builds would have some class and race templates, some skill sets, a magic system and spells (without all the Hero arcana . . . yet), and a setting for some first adventures. Every step of the way would document where to look for more rules and examples in the other books, but in an unobtrusive way that can be ignored for a while until the rules begin to make sense. Then curiosity will lead new players into the larger ruleset.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a long time admirer of and on-again off-again student of the HERO system, I'm loving this thread.

 

I'd already attempted to learn Hero when I saw that Fantasy Hero Complete was being released. I bought it with great enthusiasm and dove in. I have to say that it helped but I also had to lean on Champions Complete, the 6th Edition Basic Rulebook (found on FLGS shelf), lots of forum trawling, some delving into the big blue books, and referencing one of the free GM screens. It was super handy for getting a handle on damage classes.

 

Chris Goodwin's How to Play HERO System was an incredible help. My players and I were able to use it as a reference - "Yup, I really do understand this part."

 

Awesome! It looks like you pretty much got bit by the same bug as most of us. One book leads to another . . . . I like Chris Goodwin's introduction as well, and don't want to step on his great work. I'm not trying got steal his thunder, but even he will admit that we've all played Hero for so long that we don't remember what its like to look at the rules for the first time. So this thread is intended to allow some beginners to give some input into what kind of product they'd like to see. What would be the most helpful to you for learning the rules for the first time?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're not the only one to reach that conclusion. This forum community is in general agreement with you. The problem is that we can't really do anything of significance to address the issue. We simply don't have the resources. Unfortunately, neither does Hero Games.

 

This is a shame. I'm going to try to do something about this. I've seen you discuss this problem before, and I can see where you're coming from. HERO spent years generating new genre books, rules supplements, and things like that. But they were never very good introductions for new people. Even the Basic Rulebook is a bit dense for someone whose never played before. It may take a little time before I can plan this out, but I'm really interested in coming up with a better way to introduce new people to the Hero System.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I commend community efforts of all kinds, but I'll reiterate that one "beginner's book" does not a full product line strategy make.

 

But without a beginner's book, there is no new community and no need for a full product line. I know you're familiar with this catch-22, and I don't disagree, but a baby step is needed to break inertia. Perhaps a successful beginner's product, independently produced, will create a demand for a product line. Anyway, that's why I'm dragging this out into the light again. I'd really like to hear what beginners actually want, and try to get away from years of veterans trying to tell beginners what they should want. The books that are intended for beginners are really not as helpful as they think. They are the same books boiled down and re-served, with the same old tired explanations about how to learn the system, without acknowledging that maybe there's another way to teach it.

 

I look forward to your input because you seem to have a clear idea of what could help.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its a start, though, and all I can offer, as well as most people here.  Its my hope that with that as a starting seed, more people will recognize the value and get involved.  Like, say, the actual company Hero Games.

 

I ran out of my likes-quotes for the day, so I thought I'd acknowledge this another way. I love your work, and have much of it. For now I'm looking at this as an open-source approach to a beginners' guide. I'd love if Hero Games were to support it in the end, but I don't expect it. I'm just looking for a way to help try to reverse what looks like a contraction of Fantasy Hero. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps a successful beginner's product, independently produced, will create a demand for a product line.

 

Perhaps. But past history and my own intuitive sense of what draws new players tells me that the above hypothesis is wishful thinking at best. IMO, the only thing that will generate interest (and consequently demand for more product) is a compelling campaign setting with full-blown supplement support. The "beginner book" would take the form of the "core" book of the setting, just like with MHI.

 

I don't believe that dipping one's toes in the water with a single little book will do anything, at all, to attract significant numbers of new players. The only strategy with any hope, I believe, is to dive in with a deep financial commitment to a complete product line based around a killer campaign setting that anyone who loves its genre (be it sci-fi, fantasy, or otherwise) would be drooling over just from the promotional art and text (and maybe a bit of brief introductory fiction).

 

I am keenly aware of all the obstacles to that strategy, and how unrealistic it is believed to be (even by me). Nevertheless, I predict that anything short of a successful product campaign of that nature will ever achieve any of the goals set forth by anyone who has ever said, "What the Hero System needs (to attract new players and sustain itself for years to come) is..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps. But past history and my own intuitive sense of what draws new players tells me that the above hypothesis is wishful thinking at best. IMO, the only thing that will generate interest (and consequently demand for more product) is a compelling campaign setting with full-blown supplement support. The "beginner book" would take the form of the "core" book of the setting, just like with MHI.

 

I don't believe that dipping one's toes in the water with a single little book will do anything, at all, to attract significant numbers of new players. The only strategy with any hope, I believe, is to dive in with a deep financial commitment to a complete product line based around a killer campaign setting that anyone who loves its genre (be it sci-fi, fantasy, or otherwise) would be drooling over just from the promotional art and text (and maybe a bit of brief introductory fiction).

 

I am keenly aware of all the obstacles to that strategy, and how unrealistic it is believed to be (even by me). Nevertheless, I predict that anything short of a successful product campaign of that nature will ever achieve any of the goals set forth by anyone who has ever said, "What the Hero System needs (to attract new players and sustain itself for years to come) is..."

 

 

So I'll mark you down for "not interested in contributing" to this project . . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's how I present it to new players:

 

You've got 150 points for free, plus up to another 25 points from complications.  That's 175 points to build your character.  Those should be spent, roughly, like so:

 

60 points on Stats.

60 points on Skills at 3 points per skill

60 points on Other Cool Stuff

 

Other Cool Stuff can be more Stats up to maximums, Talents, Perks, magic ability, or more Skills including Combat Skills.  

 

A character that spends 60 points on Stats, 60 points on skills, and 60 points on a Magic Multipower will be a fireballin', lightnin' callin' M-A-G-E of the first order.

A character that spends 60 points on Stats, 60 points on Skills, and 60 points on Deadly Blow, Combat Luck, and the rest on Combat Skill Levels, and invests their starting gold in a good sword and decent armor, will be a walking Cuisinart.

A character that ignores Other Cool Stuff and puts 90 points in Stats and 90 points in Skills will be the smoothest Rogue to ever glide through the shadows.

 

And then, if they've ever played an RPG before, they should be able to hash out a decent first character on their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, OP referenced Keep on the Borderlands as an excellent starting tool.  It was, and whoever did the Hero conversion Bless You.  

 

But one of the things that was included in the original TSR product was sample characters.  And that's something that's lacking in a lot of other "modern" products (Champions excluded).

 

If you're introducing people who have never plated Hero System to Fantasy Hero, then your first night should NOT be character creation night.  You should make up 8-12 175-point characters of different types for them to choose from, with Stats, Skills, Talents, Magic, weapons & armor.  They all end up in a seedy tavern down by the docks late one night.  A couple of the locals have a few too many drinks, one of them tells one of the PCs "You been eyeballin' me" and it's phase 12.

 

The PCs should have no trouble with a few drunks, but when Hodor the Bouncer (and retired gladiator) steps in things should get interesting.  

 

After that, they should have some idea how Stats, Skills, Talents, and Powers work together.  Then on the second night they can make the characters they want for the campaign.

 

Yes, making 12 "throwaway" characters is a lot of work.  That's what being a Gm is about.  Plus, once you've made them, guess what?  You've just populated your world with ass-kicking NPCs you can reuse over and over.  So the work isn't wasted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, OP referenced Keep on the Borderlands as an excellent starting tool.  It was, and whoever did the Hero conversion Bless You.  

 

But one of the things that was included in the original TSR product was sample characters.  And that's something that's lacking in a lot of other "modern" products (Champions excluded).

 

If you're introducing people who have never plated Hero System to Fantasy Hero, then your first night should NOT be character creation night.  You should make up 8-12 175-point characters of different types for them to choose from, with Stats, Skills, Talents, Magic, weapons & armor.  They all end up in a seedy tavern down by the docks late one night.  A couple of the locals have a few too many drinks, one of them tells one of the PCs "You been eyeballin' me" and it's phase 12.

 

The PCs should have no trouble with a few drunks, but when Hodor the Bouncer (and retired gladiator) steps in things should get interesting.  

 

After that, they should have some idea how Stats, Skills, Talents, and Powers work together.  Then on the second night they can make the characters they want for the campaign.

 

Yes, making 12 "throwaway" characters is a lot of work.  That's what being a Gm is about.  Plus, once you've made them, guess what?  You've just populated your world with ass-kicking NPCs you can reuse over and over.  So the work isn't wasted.

 

This reminds me of another thought I had earlier. My assumption is that a group of newbies will probably have an experienced GM to lead them. I think that's a safe assumption, in which case a lot of this stuff is taken care of by the rules shepherd. What I'm interested in is if there's a way to "dumb it down" enough so that players can learn even without an experienced GM. A few people in this thread have talked about starting from scratch, which would scare the hell out of me, but some people are game for that. Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc., as you describe?

 

This is all simply to edify my curiosity: how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But is that a problem? Or simply a niche?

I suggest it is a problem when the market for that niche is not sufficient to generate the revenues the company needs to continue producing.

 

I think presenting the game first - "powered by Hero" stands a shot at bringing in gamers from outside that niche. Some may be interested in tinkering with the game - building their own spells, maneuvers, mutant powers, superpowers, whatever - and those are the ones who will move in to the system, using it to power their own unique game.

 

But maybe they need to see the system in action to become interested enough to want to look under the hood at how those cool abilities are created, and stay balanced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is all simply to edify my curiosity: how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?

If we are talking about the Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete version of Hero... While it could have been presented better, there isn't much left to cut. Everything I could think to cut (Talents for example) would actually make the game harder to understand, not easier. FHC should have included more 175-point Standard Heroes; enough to fill out a full table of players. But the author made a reasonable effort to make FHC more plug & playable by including a short campaign setting & adventure (not to mention more monsters and sample characters) available as part of the electronic edition.

 

A lot of the issue comes down to presentation. I've had more than one new player's eyes glaze over when they read a character sheet, or even just the Game Elements section of a spell or special ability. If you follow the Writers Guidelines for 5th/6th edition, you end up with about a paragraph or so of (frankly useless) flavor text, and then a second block of game elements text that reads like computer code (and may not actually do what the flavor text describes, depending upon the system savviness of the writer).

 

One of the conundrums I frequently ponder as I work on my various personal projects: How do we write a campaign setting (let alone an adventure) interesting and complete enough that a new GM can actually use it, at a price they can afford to pay and we can afford to work for, and without making it so difficult to read we knock our customers off the learning curve?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc.,  how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?

 

Wow.  That's a tall order.

 

Actually, not really.  That other points based universal role playing game does exactly this in a 32 page PDF.  In fact, it's a free download from their web site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean to be rude, but a book like that wouldn't be for you. It would be for newbies.

&

Don't worry! Keep in mind, I started this thread with the idea that beginners are having a hard time learning all the rules. I don't want to replace the rules, I just am looking for a way to re-skin them for beginners to learn in a very quick and easy way.

Granted, recognized, and agreed. As I said, I'm all for a newbie-friendly product that simplifies the presentation of the system to make it easier to digest. All. For. It.

 

But at the same time, the core strength of Hero has always been its strength and versatility - the fact that I can build anything I want with it. That's what originally drew me to the system as a newbie all those years ago. So while I'm 100% behind attempts to make Hero easier to learn, I do worry a bit about some suggestions (here and in other threads) that sound like they want to hide those core strengths completely in an attempt to make Hero look like every other RPG out there. Simplify presentation, yes - as long as we don't lose what makes Hero unique in the first place.

 

I suggest it is a problem when the market for that niche is not sufficient to generate the revenues the company needs to continue producing.

Totally fair point, tho I might argue that's as much a marketing failure as a system design failure. But that's a different conversation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Over the past few years there has been a number of threads similar to this one, and they have always been fascinating to read through. This time I thought I might contribute to it. I have been a Hero newbie for a several years now. It is not because I am particularly dense that I haven't moved beyond the newbie stage yet, but it's just been a while since I had a gaming group, so I mostly just play around with the system at regular intervals. For the purposes of this thread I do not have FHC, so some of my suggestions might be void due to the change in layout from the core books, but they might be helpful considerations nonetheless.

 

I have a couple of points. 

 

First of all I would like to reiterate what drew me to the Hero system in the first place. If a "newbie-friendly" version does not enable me to do this, then the efforts will be wasted, for me at least. 

 

1) The ability to create a character that is not tied to the strictures of a class-based system. I want to be able to make, say, a heavy armored melee character with an animal companion, without having to multiclass in a way that does not make sense according to the concept, or looking through vast amounts of splatbooks to find that one feat or prestigeclass that might fit.

 

2) The ability to design and utilize a magic system that does not rely on spellslots, and which enable me to design spells that actually fit the style of character I want to play. I have spent a long time looking through books when preparing my cleric spells, and never being quite satisfied with my options.

 

Everything else in the Hero system is simply boni, even if they are really nice boni. I realize this already makes me a candidate for the expanded rules that allow tinkering with the system, but it was what drew me to the Hero system to begin with. And I think it is important to realize that when thinking about my previous game group, I can only think of one who would care about Hero system on the basis of this. The rest of them would be perfectly happy playing DnD/Pathfinder with classes and Vancian magic. I don't think a beginners' book on the Hero system would have any appeal for them, but maybe that's not the purpose anyway. If the intent is to draw in new players, the above considerations are important to keep in mind, but if intent is to teach already interested players, then it makes sense to work on a simpler presentation.

 

As for what that might constitute, it is also important to acknowledge that different people experience things differently. Personally I never had a problem with the nomenclature and abbreviations of Hero. However, for a long time I had no idea how naked advantages worked. I knew how to build them, but not how to use them. The reason for this was that I was under the assumption that a half-phase action was the basic power action in the game. I was used to attack actions being the standard from which all else is measured, so when attack actions were a half-phase action, I assumed that unless otherwise noted a power required a half-phase action to use. Boy, was I wrong. It took a long time before I realized that the standard activation action was a zero-phase action. It was simple and right there, but for some reason I had missed it. The same thing with linked powers being used simultaneously instead of requiring two attack actions. It took me a long time before I noticed that, which also kept me from really understanding how linked powers worked. I think one of the problems is that there is a lot of text. There is a lot of text, and I don't have the time nor patience to read the two core books cover to cover, and there is a lot of information hidden simply in text blocks throughout the book. Simpler presentation with an awareness of what assumptions new people bring to the book might be useful here. Again, I don't know if that has improved in FHC.

 

Another thing I might mention is the "Hero way" to do things. Both on the board and in the books, there seems to be certain "standard" way of building certain powers. Like trackless stride being invisible power effects on movement. It can be really hard to figure out what those "standard" ways are, because it requires a way of thinking that is more abstracted than what most people are used to. This is of course a postulate, but of the most eyeopening things for me has been to read the threads where people build stuff and then explain their reasoning behind it. That gives me a much better understanding of what the different parts of Hero system do. It is a lot of work for a beginner to read through all the advantages and limitations in order to determine, which of those adequately model the effect you want to achieve. On the one hand it can be a bit disheartening when you think you have a power figured out, only to realize that there was a "standard" way of modelling it, that is way easier and more intuitive, but on the other hand, this might provide a good starting point for a separate beginners' resource on how to use the tools at your disposal, in ways that are not immediately obvious, when coming from a different game system. Just a thought.

 

Finally, I would like comment on the marketing issue. Helping newbies understand Hero better is important and a good thing, but drawing them in is just as important as keeping them around, and I feel like the community has missed out on a couple of amazing opportunities that are surging these years. Actual play streaming. Anyone here watch Critical Role? It's a show where a bunch of voice actors play DnD on Twitch. It has a huge impact in drawing new people into the hobby. People watch it for the show (since they are afterall actors), and then realize how much fun DnD is. On top of that, it is also helpful to teach people how to play, as they see it in action with some explanation on the side or on Reddit afterwards. I have a couple of times searched the web franctically to find an actual play podcast or stream series, and have been sorely disappointed. The only youtube-video I found was by HERO Evangelist, who made a single video five years ago, and then there is the Narosia introduction on Drink Spin Run, and then there is a Champions intro as well on Happyjacks (but maybe only a single episode?). I think this would be an amazing platform to introduce new people to the game, who might come to watch the show for the sake of the show, and then want to try their hands on it themselves, and it would an opportunity to show people how it works in practice, as well as a basis for explaining core concepts in video format. Of course, this required equipment, time, some theatrical flair and a group with a willingness to participate, so I understand why nobody has done it. But if the only thing holding someone back from doing this is realizing that this is a possibility/opportunity, then I thought I might mention it.

 

Just my 25 øre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome! It looks like you pretty much got bit by the same bug as most of us. One book leads to another . . . . I like Chris Goodwin's introduction as well, and don't want to step on his great work. I'm not trying got steal his thunder, but even he will admit that we've all played Hero for so long that we don't remember what its like to look at the rules for the first time. So this thread is intended to allow some beginners to give some input into what kind of product they'd like to see. What would be the most helpful to you for learning the rules for the first time?

 

My EGO took a hit when I was first stymied, so I tracked down the different books in the effort to learn HERO.

 

A glossary of TLAs and other game terms would be helpful. When unwinding rules concepts it's tough when you hit another HERO-specific game term when reading about another one, especially for the first (second, third) time. A glossary would alleviate that a bit, I'd think. The index, no matter how good, isn't necessarily helpful here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually... A document that consisted of a basic gameplay primer* and a comprehensive CC/FHC Glossary** would have been very helpful to the last few people I tried to teach Hero. Such a document would probably fit into 10 pages or less; meaning GMs could afford to print several copies of it to be used as handouts.

*  How to make Success Rolls, how to make Attack Rolls, how to perform Skill Vs. Skill Contests, how to make Effect Rolls (and apply defenses), how to perform STR vs. STR Contests, and how to read the Speed Chart and determine Initiative.

**  One containing a one or two sentence description of every single Game Element, presented in alphabetical order.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a basic gameplay primer...

I think this hits the nail on the head for me. Such things exist, and a couple have been referenced in this thread, but they're all fan-built and you have to go looking for them.

 

Also: all the published Hero materials (AFAIK) are very much written around what the GM needs to know rather than what the Players need to know. The former is an order of magnitude greater than the latter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might also include (or publish separately) a collection of all tables in the core books. Or perhaps of all books at all, or maybe several thematic collections. 

 

If I ever get a group together to try Hero, I would definitely print out a copy of all tables to each player for easy reference, but I would gladly pay a few dollars for a formatted version, so I won't have to copy-paste all those pictures into a word document to print. But this is more of a nice-to-have than need-to-have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...