Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Christopher R Taylor]

Also: all the published Hero materials (AFAIK) are very much written around what the GM needs to know rather than what the Players need to know. The former is an order of magnitude greater than the latter.

 

I am guilty of this, so far.  Almost all the stuff I've put out is for GMs, who tend to buy the most product.  There's some in the Codex for players building spells, but mostly its been for GMs.  I hope to rectify that with the player book but Hero needs to put out a player-friendly super simple Hero for Dummies type book.

[Cantriped]

To be fair, there is a limit to what we can publish as third-parties. Unlike the Open Game License, Hero Games' license doesn't allow publishers to actually reprint sections of hero games products (such as CC/FHC) without written permission from DOJ. I assume they would be hesitant to give such permission for numerous reasons. Which means by default third-party publishers are limited to flavor text, sample stat-blocks, and optional rules (which must be at least 60% different than existing optional rules)

[Christopher R Taylor]

So far in my experience, they've been very willing to let me republish bits of the rules.  I just asked and they said "yep!"  I think it helps to be at least somewhat professional and put out reasonably nice quality stuff.

[Brian Stanfield]

If we are talking about the Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete version of Hero... While it could have been presented better, there isn't much left to cut. Everything I could think to cut (Talents for example) would actually make the game harder to understand, not easier. FHC should have included more 175-point Standard Heroes; enough to fill out a full table of players. But the author made a reasonable effort to make FHC more plug & playable by including a short campaign setting & adventure (not to mention more monsters and sample characters) available as part of the electronic edition.

 

A lot of the issue comes down to presentation. I've had more than one new player's eyes glaze over when they read a character sheet, or even just the Game Elements section of a spell or special ability. If you follow the Writers Guidelines for 5th/6th edition, you end up with about a paragraph or so of (frankly useless) flavor text, and then a second block of game elements text that reads like computer code (and may not actually do what the flavor text describes, depending upon the system savviness of the writer).

 

One of the conundrums I frequently ponder as I work on my various personal projects: How do we write a campaign setting (let alone an adventure) interesting and complete enough that a new GM can actually use it, at a price they can afford to pay and we can afford to work for, and without making it so difficult to read we knock our customers off the learning curve?

 

The presentation part of this is what I'm getting at. I'm interested in creating something that's completely scalable with the already existing products. My buddy's eyes glazed over when he hit the powers section. In all honesty, this is the section I'd cut out of an introductory document first. If you have a spell list for beginners, you don't really need to show how they are built. Save that for moving into FHC for more details. That saves nearly 100 pages of text that a newbie doesn't really need to know! 100 pages that made my buddy put the book down and want to quit. 

 

So no, I don't want to kill what makes Hero unique and completely flexible, but i want something that is scalable. Once the basics are learned, then you can learn the toolbox and play around with it. Fantasy Hero Complete is far from plug-and-play, judging from my friend's experience with it. It is a useful summary of all the rules for a GM and for intermediate players who want to understand more of the toolbox. A beginner's guide should be playable in an evening. Phydaux brings this up, which I'll address in a separate post. But it think it's important to show that Hero can be scaled down as much as it can be scaled up. This is an aspect of its flexibility that ought to be shown as well.

[Brian Stanfield]

My EGO took a hit when I was first stymied, so I tracked down the different books in the effort to learn HERO.

 

A glossary of TLAs and other game terms would be helpful. When unwinding rules concepts it's tough when you hit another HERO-specific game term when reading about another one, especially for the first (second, third) time. A glossary would alleviate that a bit, I'd think. The index, no matter how good, isn't necessarily helpful here.

 

Actually... A document that consisted of a basic gameplay primer* and a comprehensive CC/FHC Glossary** would have been very helpful to the last few people I tried to teach Hero. Such a document would probably fit into 10 pages or less; meaning GMs could afford to print several copies of it to be used as handouts.

*  How to make Success Rolls, how to make Attack Rolls, how to perform Skill Vs. Skill Contests, how to make Effect Rolls (and apply defenses), how to perform STR vs. STR Contests, and how to read the Speed Chart and determine Initiative.

**  One containing a one or two sentence description of every single Game Element, presented in alphabetical order.

 

Wow, I never noticed that there's no glossary! That would be a really useful document. To be fair, there is an overview of all the game mechanics in the first few pages of Fantasy Hero Complete which serves as a de facto glossary, but you have to know where to look to find explanations. So yes, an alphabetical glossary would be really useful. Preferably one that's not a stripped down version of the longer game definitions, but rather a more plain-language explanation that gives a feel for the game terminology.

 

There are also the free downloads of Hero in 2 pages, and sample combat, and things like that. Champions Complete gave even more supplementary documents that help explain things. It seems like these could all be put into one larger document with a glossary.

[Brian Stanfield]

I think this hits the nail on the head for me. Such things exist, and a couple have been referenced in this thread, but they're all fan-built and you have to go looking for them.

 

Also: all the published Hero materials (AFAIK) are very much written around what the GM needs to know rather than what the Players need to know. The former is an order of magnitude greater than the latter.

 

Agreed. I think what I'm looking at is something that is written for new players, not new GMs. I think the Complete books are pretty much essential for GMs, but it seems like there could be something much simpler for new players who have a more experienced GM to help them. I don't think Hero is the kind of game that someone can learn to GM in a weekend, at least not effectively. I guess a lot of things could be cut out or simplified for the GM, but then you start to lose the feel of Hero. From the player's point of view, however, much less background of the system is needed.

[Brian Stanfield]

You might also include (or publish separately) a collection of all tables in the core books. Or perhaps of all books at all, or maybe several thematic collections. 

 

If I ever get a group together to try Hero, I would definitely print out a copy of all tables to each player for easy reference, but I would gladly pay a few dollars for a formatted version, so I won't have to copy-paste all those pictures into a word document to print. But this is more of a nice-to-have than need-to-have.

 

If you look in the downloads section, there are a couple of different GM screens that have most of the essential tables and things you'd need. There are a few things missing, but you can make those up yourself. I tried building my own GM screen with all the tables that I wanted, and it was just waaaaay too long. There are a lot of important tables, and I'm not sure how useful it would be to put them all together since it would be such a long list of things. I use the GM screen and then have the books handy to look up the occasional other things.

 

Here's a list of all their products through 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hero_System_Products 

 

*Edit: it just occurred to me you may have meant all of the tables for character creation. If that's the case, yes, I agree! They could all be put together in a few pages. The last Appendix in Fantasy Hero Complete has a lot of these tables, but it's also missing some things.

[Brian Stanfield]

Wow.  That's a tall order.

 

Actually, not really.  That other points based universal role playing game does exactly this in a 32 page PDF.  In fact, it's a free download from their web site.

 

I am guilty of this, so far.  Almost all the stuff I've put out is for GMs, who tend to buy the most product.  There's some in the Codex for players building spells, but mostly its been for GMs.  I hope to rectify that with the player book but Hero needs to put out a player-friendly super simple Hero for Dummies type book.

 

Phydaux, I never realized that there was such a document for "the other game." I downloaded it and looked at it, and in about half an hour I learned the game enough that I feel like I could make a character and run a battle in maybe a couple of hours, or in an evening for sure. THIS is the sort of "Hero for Dummies" document I'm talking about. I would do it a bit differently, but this is exactly what I've been looking for. Fantasy Hero Complete is a must for a GM to run a full campaign, but this 32-page document gave me everything I needed to know about the game, an enough to feel like I could play it for a little bit, with the understanding that I'd be growing into a larger, more complex system.

 

As I wrote in a different post, Hero needs to show that it can be scaled down for beginners just as much as it can be scaled up for advanced play. I mean, if you cut out the powers and modifiers section from FHC, you lose 100 pages and have a roughly 150 book. Imagine boiling the 150 pages down even more, just to the essentials needed for players (not GMs) to be ready to play.

 

So, I'm curious what newbies think about this idea? What is a good page count for a handout document or possibly a small booklet?

[phydaux]

Anyone remember this:

 

 

128 pages.  Dead tree version is no longer available, but the PDF is in the on-line store.

[Brian Stanfield]

Yes, I have a couple of copies of it. I like it a lot, and the Complete books are derived from it from what I understand. When I first got back into HERO System after a few decades off, I used the Basic Rulebook to help me get up to speed on the new edition, and then moved up to the two main core rulebooks. I'd recommend it to any GM, especially new ones. But again, it's more detailed than I'm looking for in a beginner document for players (I think the Basic Rulebook is perfect for beginning GMs).

 

I have in mind something even shorter, and genre-specific in order to cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff. The powers take up 44 pages, and I'm thinking that removing that, and trimming away could get things down to a very manageable size. Maybe 50 pages? I read GURPS Lite in half an hour and felt like I had a good grasp of things. This is more like what I'm trying to develop.

[Old Man]

Can anyone point me to the description in FHC for skill modifiers like Scholar and Jack Of All Trades?  I can't find it.

[Old Man]

I have in mind something even shorter, and genre-specific in order to cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff. The powers take up 44 pages, and I'm thinking that removing that, and trimming away could get things down to a very manageable size. Maybe 50 pages? I read GURPS Lite in half an hour and felt like I had a good grasp of things. This is more like what I'm trying to develop.

 

I see where you're coming from, but unfortunately I don't know if you can get away with taking the Powers description out of the book.  Even if you hide the math, an Entangle with Area Effect, Requires a Roll, and Obvious Accessible Focus--these all have in-game effects that can't be anywhere but the Powers section.  The best you could do would be to reorganize the entry for each Power such that the game effects are on top and the costs and specific modifiers are on the bottom, but I don't know how much space that'd save.  Taking out Powers means a campaign with no magic, no non-human races, and no monsters.  It could be done, but...

[Cantriped]

Can anyone point me to the description in FHC for skill modifiers like Scholar and Jack Of All Trades?  I can't find it.

For "Skill Enhancers" see FHC 26; line 16, right before "Familiarity And Proficiency".

[Chris Goodwin]

I see where you're coming from, but unfortunately I don't know if you can get away with taking the Powers description out of the book.  Even if you hide the math, an Entangle with Area Effect, Requires a Roll, and Obvious Accessible Focus--these all have in-game effects that can't be anywhere but the Powers section.  The best you could do would be to reorganize the entry for each Power such that the game effects are on top and the costs and specific modifiers are on the bottom, but I don't know how much space that'd save.  Taking out Powers means a campaign with no magic, no non-human races, and no monsters.  It could be done, but...

 

Danger International managed it just fine.  Referred the gamer to Champions where Powers were needed.

[knasser2]

I remember the Basic D&D set (the little red book), and it was perfect. It was simple, only a few choices, and then an adventure or two. And then came the Expert set, and more rules. The first module I remember was The Keep on the Borderlands, which added a few more rules as it introduced the setting. Plenty of adventures there. And by the time Advanced D&D came out, I was hungry for more rules! This is the path that I want to try to recreate for Fantasy Hero.

Those old Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal boxed sets were excellent for their intended purpose.

 

What I'm currently working on is a drop-in replacement for D&D with a bit of side inspiration from the little-known but excellent Iron Heroes (a low-magic D20 game which had some fantastic variants on Fighter).

 

I'm doing four basic races as templates (human, elf, dwarf and goblin) and some core classes.

 

I could well see breaking it out into a Basic / Expert / Etc. model as a way of managing the size of the project. If I have some free time this weekend, I'll see what I can produce as a draft.

 

The website of KillerShrike linked to earlier is being collossally helpful and I'm using it as my lodestone for my own approach to it.

 

When I get something in draft form, I'll throw it up on OneDrive or something which makes it fairly easy to present and even collaborate if people are interested.

[Brian Stanfield]

I see where you're coming from, but unfortunately I don't know if you can get away with taking the Powers description out of the book.  Even if you hide the math, an Entangle with Area Effect, Requires a Roll, and Obvious Accessible Focus--these all have in-game effects that can't be anywhere but the Powers section.  The best you could do would be to reorganize the entry for each Power such that the game effects are on top and the costs and specific modifiers are on the bottom, but I don't know how much space that'd save.  Taking out Powers means a campaign with no magic, no non-human races, and no monsters.  It could be done, but...

 

I should have clarified: the powers in a fantasy setting would be replaced by a list of spells. This is only, of course, for new players to get up and running in a single evening, not a long-term change to the rules. It's only a suggestion to help alleviate the brick wall that the powers section often presents for newbies to smash into. Just a thought.

[Brian Stanfield]

Danger International managed it just fine.  Referred the gamer to Champions where Powers were needed.

 

My suggestion is similar, in the sense that the document I have in mind would reference Fantasy Hero Complete for a more, well, uh, "complete" explanation of how the powers work. As I said before, genuinely new players don't need to know how the sausage is made to have fun eating it on their first visit.

[Brian Stanfield]

Those old Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal boxed sets were excellent for their intended purpose.

 

What I'm currently working on is a drop-in replacement for D&D with a bit of side inspiration from the little-known but excellent Iron Heroes (a low-magic D20 game which had some fantastic variants on Fighter).

 

I'm doing four basic races as templates (human, elf, dwarf and goblin) and some core classes.

 

I could well see breaking it out into a Basic / Expert / Etc. model as a way of managing the size of the project. If I have some free time this weekend, I'll see what I can produce as a draft.

 

The website of KillerShrike linked to earlier is being collossally helpful and I'm using it as my lodestone for my own approach to it.

 

When I get something in draft form, I'll throw it up on OneDrive or something which makes it fairly easy to present and even collaborate if people are interested.

 

I ran out of likes for the day, so I'll just respond. Let us know what you come up with. I'm not going to re-write the rules any time soon, so for now simplified settings will be a good inroad for the game.

 

WoC has that basic box for D&D which also serves the same purpose as what their Basic box set used to do. They have the money to pull it off, and I realize something like that is not really possible. I'm thinking a longer .pdf would be doable, though.

[massey]

A "Fantasy Hero In 15 Minutes" guide would be quite helpful for new players.  Get them to sit down and actually play the game without having to read more than a few pages.  You don't need to know how all the Powers work if all you want to do is climb walls, pick locks, and backstab somebody.  Combining that guide with a basic fantasy setting, some fantasy character classes, and some monsters would be a decent product.

 

Chapter 1 -- How the system works.  1 page.

Fantasy Hero is a game using the award-winning HERO System game mechanics.  In this book you'll find an introduction to the rules designed to get you playing as quickly as possible.  Characters in this game are constructed with a point value.  Different abilities cost different amounts of points.  The more points something is, the more powerful it is.  Characters who are made on the same numbers of points will be roughly equal in power level.  In this game, all the characters begin with 175 points to spend.  

 

Skills in this game are resolved by rolling 3D6, adding the numbers together, and trying to roll under a particular number, which will be listed next to your skill.  Joe wants to pick a lock, he rolls against his Lockpicking 12- skill.  He wants the total on all 3 dice to equal 12 or less.  The GM may assign modifiers if a task is particularly easy or hard.  Opposed skill rolls (such as sneaking past a guard) take place when two people are using opposing skills against one another.  The thief rolls his Stealth skill, the guard rolls his Perception.  Whoever succeeds by the biggest number prevails.  See the Skills section for more info.

 

Combat is resolved by rolling to-hit, and then rolling damage.  Attacking someone is handled like a skill roll, you roll 3D6 and want to roll low.  The base number for success is 11 or less.  Add your OCV (offensive combat value) to this number.  If you have a 6 OCV, your number needed to hit would be 17 or less.  A sure thing, right?  Not so fast my friend.  Now subtract your opponent's DCV (defensive combat value).  If their DCV is 4, then that reduces the number back down to 13 or less.  If their DCV is an 8, that reduces it to 9 or less.  This is the number you need to hit your opponent.

 

If you miss your opponent, he takes no damage.  If you hit your opponent, roll the number of dice listed beside your attack.  You want to roll as high as possible when doing damage.  Now take the total, and subtract your opponent's appropriate Defense.  The opponent takes whatever damage is left over.  A physical attack, like a punch, a kick, or a thrown rock, goes against your opponent's Physical Defense.  A mental blast goes against their Mental Defense.  An energy attack like a fireball goes against their Energy Defense.  The weapon or spell that you use will specify which type of Defense applies.  If your damage roll is lower or equal to your opponent's appropriate Defense, then they take nothing.  Hit harder next time.

 

You get a number of actions equal to your Speed characteristic.  If you have a Speed 3, you get 3 actions per turn.  If you have a Speed 4, you get 4 actions per turn.  These actions are spread throughout the turn, as seen on the Speed chart.  During combat, your GM will call out which "phase" or "segment" it is.  Your character will have which phases they act on written on the sheet.  If the GM calls your phase, then you get to go.  Within a phase, characters act in Dex order.  A guy with a 15 Dex, 3 Spd will act on segments 4, 8, and 12.  When the GM calls out "segment 4", he will get to act.  If someone else is also Spd 3, but has a 17 Dex, then that person gets to go before the person with the 15 Dex.

 

See the Combat chapter for more information, and see the list of maneuvers on the back page for modifiers and special types of attacks.

 

Chapter 2 -- Character creation.  3 pages.

Just have basic instructions on how many points the characters have, and that you get to pick and choose which abilities you want them to have.  You have 175 points.  Pick a stat block, pick a skill set, pick some special abilities, and you're good to go.  Let players know that the Hero System does not prevent mages from wielding battle axes, or fighters from casting spells.  But for this introduction, the choices have been simplified.  Include the cost for basic characteristics here.

 

 

Chapter 2a through 2j -- Character classes.  10 pages.

This has example characters, like thieves, fighters, rangers, and wizards.  Give the standard D&D classes, and throw in a weird one or two that D&D doesn't have, to try and catch their interest.  A Wyvern Rider or something like that would be cool.  One page for each character.  Have a basic stat block (Fighters, 15 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, 5 PD and ED, 3 Spd, etc), probably 60 points or so, so that they don't forget to buy something really important.  Have a basic skill block (+1 with all swords, Weaponsmith 11-, KS: Dungeons, KS: Orcs, Tactics, Stealth), 20 points.  And have a "special moves" section, where they pick two or three cool things that set them apart (Fighters, +1D6 killing attack with swords, some kind of counter-attack move, martial arts, etc), 20 points.  Now you've got 75 points left for the player to customize.  Refer them to the characteristics chart, the skills list, and the magic section.

 

Chapter 3 -- Combat. 6 pages.

This has a more fully fleshed out combat section.  It has a few examples so people get a better idea of how the game flows.  It talks about the difference between Stun damage and Killing damage.  It talks about taking Recoveries, being Stunned, being Knocked Out, and spending Endurance.  It has an example character sheet and explains what each part of the sheet means.  It has a few maneuvers (block, haymaker, grab, dodge), and talks about aborting an action.  It gives an easy to understand explanation of the Speed chart.  It leaves out things like Knockback, Power Defense, Hardened Defenses, and things that don't appear in the sample adventure.

 

Chapter 4 -- Skills.  3 pages.

Quick descriptions of fantasy genre skills, with an approximation of the length of time a skill roll requires (Stealth, 1/2 phase action.  Lockpicking, 1 turn, Spell Research, days?), and some common modifiers.

 

Chapter 5 -- Magic.  12 pages.

This includes an explanation of the magic system (which is really just a multipower put into easier to understand terms), and about 60 different spells, written up in normal language with a points cost given.  Some basic D&D spells should be included, as well as some stranger ones that Hero can do pretty easily.

 

Chapter 6 -- Equipment.  4 pages.

This has a big list of armor, weapons, things like that, written as simply as possible.  Go ahead and list the weapons' cost in gold pieces or whatever.  These don't cost points.

 

Chapter 7 -- Magic Items.  6 pages.

Magic swords, wands, things like that.  Characters can spend their 75 remaining character points on these if they want.

 

Chapter 8 -- Enemies.  20 pages.

A basic Monster Manual so that players can gauge who they're supposed to be fighting.  How tough is an orc?  What about a dragon?  A city guardsman?  It's all contained here.  3 or 4 monsters per page.

 

--

 

 

This should be a product that players can pick up, flip through, and then start playing the game.  Make a character in 5 minutes.  After a few sessions, they should have a pretty good handle on the system.  Then when they look at the Fantasy Hero Complete book, everything will start to make sense.  They'll have a frame of reference for it.  The intro book would cover what 90% of new players want.  It's not intimidating, it's not scary, it's clearly labeled and has a familiar layout.  You could hand this to a 10 year old, they'd be able to read through it and understand it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think possibly a fantasy player's book could get by with just the skills and PC creation stuff, and then spells listed by their effects (i.e. blasts a target for xd6 damage) so you don't need all the powers listed and explained.  Everyone basically knows what "drain" means, and the power descriptions are so generic now that they are kind of self explanatory.  Resistant Protection, Change Environment, etc.  The GM Book will need power stuff in it, but the players I agree probably could get by without details, and refer folks to Champions Complete or the 6th ed rules for full info.

 

Here's what I figure the FH player book needs:

• How to build your character (stats, skills, complications, talents, etc).
• Templates for "classes" and races
• Spells
• Equipment
• Combat (but stripped down, the basics not the full 250 pages)
• Role Playing basics
• The assumptions and concepts of the given campaign setting
• Some small maps depicting the area PCs would reasonably know.

Seems like that would cover it pretty well.

 

As for an Intro to Fantasy Hero, Massey has a great handle on this.  That, combined with a tutorial "intro to Fantasy Hero" adventure, some simple sample characters, and you've got a winner.  Put that out for free download like the Champions Begins one and we've got the start of a nice way to get people going into games.

 

Armed with these, Hero fans can go to their local game store and run introductory games like the AD&D one I played to learn RPGs back in the late 70s.

[Cantriped]

A "Fantasy Hero In 15 Minutes" guide would be quite helpful for new players.  Get them to sit down and actually play the game without having to read more than a few pages.  You don't need to know how all the Powers work if all you want to do is climb walls, pick locks, and backstab somebody.  Combining that guide with a basic fantasy setting, some fantasy character classes, and some monsters would be a decent product.

...

I like your outline for chapter 1, but I think it should be combined with chapter 3, and given at least twice the page count.

 

I think chapters 2, 4, and 5 should all be combined into one chapter, or simply replaced with an "Adventurer's Gallery" (similar to the Superhero Gallery from Champions, but trimmed down a little). Also regarding chapter 5, simply using a Multipower Framework as your default magic system comes with issues of its own. Getting around those issues tends to create convoluted power constructs that such a document should be avoiding.

 

I expect you will need to double the page counts of chapters 6 and 7 to actually cover a decent spread of common options and detail even a vague economy within. Also regarding chapter 6, even if equipment doesn't cost points, and you aren't listing their full builds, you still need to list the Active and Real points of the powers for the purposes of adjustment powers, campaigns using resource point rules, and the occasional "superheroic high fantasy" campaign. Both Dark Champions and Fantasy Hero were both able to do so for all of their Heroic Equipment without losing any line space to the practice, so I'm sure you won't either. Doing so also makes your product look more professional, and broadly useful.

 

Regarding Chapter 8, I don't think fitting 3 or 4 monsters per page is a realistic goal. If you are using the "Character Brief" format and really fine font on a two column page with narrow page margins you "might" manage to cram 4 stat-blocks onto a single page. But that won't leave much (if any) room for descriptions or flavor text. Furthermore, spellcasters and creatures with unusual abilities or wondrous items will need at least half a page of line-space even assuming the formatting restrictions mentioned above. I would triple, or even quadruple your expected page count for this chapter.

 

Finally, Artwork sells gaming products better than tightly formatted and well written text (just look at the shit Paizo puts out for proof of that). If you plan to include enough art to catch the consumer's eye, expect to increase your page count by another half-again (or even double).

[Brian Stanfield]

A "Fantasy Hero In 15 Minutes" guide would be quite helpful for new players.  Get them to sit down and actually play the game without having to read more than a few pages.  You don't need to know how all the Powers work if all you want to do is climb walls, pick locks, and backstab somebody.  Combining that guide with a basic fantasy setting, some fantasy character classes, and some monsters would be a decent product.

 

Chapter 1 -- How the system works.  1 page.

Fantasy Hero is a game using the award-winning HERO System game mechanics.  In this book you'll find an introduction to the rules designed to get you playing as quickly as possible.  Characters in this game are constructed with a point value.  Different abilities cost different amounts of points.  The more points something is, the more powerful it is.  Characters who are made on the same numbers of points will be roughly equal in power level.  In this game, all the characters begin with 175 points to spend.  

 

Skills in this game are resolved by rolling 3D6, adding the numbers together, and trying to roll under a particular number, which will be listed next to your skill.  Joe wants to pick a lock, he rolls against his Lockpicking 12- skill.  He wants the total on all 3 dice to equal 12 or less.  The GM may assign modifiers if a task is particularly easy or hard.  Opposed skill rolls (such as sneaking past a guard) take place when two people are using opposing skills against one another.  The thief rolls his Stealth skill, the guard rolls his Perception.  Whoever succeeds by the biggest number prevails.  See the Skills section for more info.

 

Combat is resolved by rolling to-hit, and then rolling damage.  Attacking someone is handled like a skill roll, you roll 3D6 and want to roll low.  The base number for success is 11 or less.  Add your OCV (offensive combat value) to this number.  If you have a 6 OCV, your number needed to hit would be 17 or less.  A sure thing, right?  Not so fast my friend.  Now subtract your opponent's DCV (defensive combat value).  If their DCV is 4, then that reduces the number back down to 13 or less.  If their DCV is an 8, that reduces it to 9 or less.  This is the number you need to hit your opponent.

 

If you miss your opponent, he takes no damage.  If you hit your opponent, roll the number of dice listed beside your attack.  You want to roll as high as possible when doing damage.  Now take the total, and subtract your opponent's appropriate Defense.  The opponent takes whatever damage is left over.  A physical attack, like a punch, a kick, or a thrown rock, goes against your opponent's Physical Defense.  A mental blast goes against their Mental Defense.  An energy attack like a fireball goes against their Energy Defense.  The weapon or spell that you use will specify which type of Defense applies.  If your damage roll is lower or equal to your opponent's appropriate Defense, then they take nothing.  Hit harder next time.

 

You get a number of actions equal to your Speed characteristic.  If you have a Speed 3, you get 3 actions per turn.  If you have a Speed 4, you get 4 actions per turn.  These actions are spread throughout the turn, as seen on the Speed chart.  During combat, your GM will call out which "phase" or "segment" it is.  Your character will have which phases they act on written on the sheet.  If the GM calls your phase, then you get to go.  Within a phase, characters act in Dex order.  A guy with a 15 Dex, 3 Spd will act on segments 4, 8, and 12.  When the GM calls out "segment 4", he will get to act.  If someone else is also Spd 3, but has a 17 Dex, then that person gets to go before the person with the 15 Dex.

 

See the Combat chapter for more information, and see the list of maneuvers on the back page for modifiers and special types of attacks.

 

Chapter 2 -- Character creation.  3 pages.

Just have basic instructions on how many points the characters have, and that you get to pick and choose which abilities you want them to have.  You have 175 points.  Pick a stat block, pick a skill set, pick some special abilities, and you're good to go.  Let players know that the Hero System does not prevent mages from wielding battle axes, or fighters from casting spells.  But for this introduction, the choices have been simplified.  Include the cost for basic characteristics here.

 

 

Chapter 2a through 2j -- Character classes.  10 pages.

This has example characters, like thieves, fighters, rangers, and wizards.  Give the standard D&D classes, and throw in a weird one or two that D&D doesn't have, to try and catch their interest.  A Wyvern Rider or something like that would be cool.  One page for each character.  Have a basic stat block (Fighters, 15 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, 5 PD and ED, 3 Spd, etc), probably 60 points or so, so that they don't forget to buy something really important.  Have a basic skill block (+1 with all swords, Weaponsmith 11-, KS: Dungeons, KS: Orcs, Tactics, Stealth), 20 points.  And have a "special moves" section, where they pick two or three cool things that set them apart (Fighters, +1D6 killing attack with swords, some kind of counter-attack move, martial arts, etc), 20 points.  Now you've got 75 points left for the player to customize.  Refer them to the characteristics chart, the skills list, and the magic section.

 

Chapter 3 -- Combat. 6 pages.

This has a more fully fleshed out combat section.  It has a few examples so people get a better idea of how the game flows.  It talks about the difference between Stun damage and Killing damage.  It talks about taking Recoveries, being Stunned, being Knocked Out, and spending Endurance.  It has an example character sheet and explains what each part of the sheet means.  It has a few maneuvers (block, haymaker, grab, dodge), and talks about aborting an action.  It gives an easy to understand explanation of the Speed chart.  It leaves out things like Knockback, Power Defense, Hardened Defenses, and things that don't appear in the sample adventure.

 

Chapter 4 -- Skills.  3 pages.

Quick descriptions of fantasy genre skills, with an approximation of the length of time a skill roll requires (Stealth, 1/2 phase action.  Lockpicking, 1 turn, Spell Research, days?), and some common modifiers.

 

Chapter 5 -- Magic.  12 pages.

This includes an explanation of the magic system (which is really just a multipower put into easier to understand terms), and about 60 different spells, written up in normal language with a points cost given.  Some basic D&D spells should be included, as well as some stranger ones that Hero can do pretty easily.

 

Chapter 6 -- Equipment.  4 pages.

This has a big list of armor, weapons, things like that, written as simply as possible.  Go ahead and list the weapons' cost in gold pieces or whatever.  These don't cost points.

 

Chapter 7 -- Magic Items.  6 pages.

Magic swords, wands, things like that.  Characters can spend their 75 remaining character points on these if they want.

 

Chapter 8 -- Enemies.  20 pages.

A basic Monster Manual so that players can gauge who they're supposed to be fighting.  How tough is an orc?  What about a dragon?  A city guardsman?  It's all contained here.  3 or 4 monsters per page.

 

--

 

 

This should be a product that players can pick up, flip through, and then start playing the game.  Make a character in 5 minutes.  After a few sessions, they should have a pretty good handle on the system.  Then when they look at the Fantasy Hero Complete book, everything will start to make sense.  They'll have a frame of reference for it.  The intro book would cover what 90% of new players want.  It's not intimidating, it's not scary, it's clearly labeled and has a familiar layout.  You could hand this to a 10 year old, they'd be able to read through it and understand it.

 

Yup, this is pretty much what I'm talking about, and it comes in at 65 pages. It seems like it should be doable with only a little bit of work. Maybe find some art, or get permission to use Hero's art and charts and things. Why haven't you written this yet? Are you going to make me do it since I started this thread?!

[Brian Stanfield]

As for an Intro to Fantasy Hero, Massey has a great handle on this.  That, combined with a tutorial "intro to Fantasy Hero" adventure, some simple sample characters, and you've got a winner.  Put that out for free download like the Champions Begins one and we've got the start of a nice way to get people going into games.

 

Armed with these, Hero fans can go to their local game store and run introductory games like the AD&D one I played to learn RPGs back in the late 70s.

 

I agree. Massey has pretty much described exactly what I was thinking of. It's the FLGS and conventions that I'm thinking about here, as you point out, in addition to my poor friend who is having a hard time wrapping his head around it. I have several gaming groups I show up to, and it would be great to be able to hand them this stuff and get them up and running with pre-gem characters, which they're used to doing. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like your outline for chapter 1, but I think it should be combined with chapter 3, and given at least twice the page count.

Cantriped I don't disagree with your overall analysis but I think you're envisioning a different kind of product than Massey has in mind.  What he's proposing is a super simple intro booklet free for download that players can look over to get a grasp of the system.  Just a super trimmed down FH for dummies freebie.  What you have in mind is a fantasy hero campaign book, like I mean to put out, which is a great deal more expansive and in depth.

[massey]

I like your outline for chapter 1, but I think it should be combined with chapter 3, and given at least twice the page count.

 

I think chapters 2, 4, and 5 should all be combined into one chapter, or simply replaced with an "Adventurer's Gallery" (similar to the Superhero Gallery from Champions, but trimmed down a little). Also regarding chapter 5, simply using a Multipower Framework as your default magic system comes with issues of its own. Getting around those issues tends to create convoluted power constructs that such a document should be avoiding.

 

I expect you will need to double the page counts of chapters 6 and 7 to actually cover a decent spread of common options and detail even a vague economy within. Also regarding chapter 6, even if equipment doesn't cost points, and you aren't listing their full builds, you still need to list the Active and Real points of the powers for the purposes of adjustment powers, campaigns using resource point rules, and the occasional "superheroic high fantasy" campaign. Both Dark Champions and Fantasy Hero were both able to do so for all of their Heroic Equipment without losing any line space to the practice, so I'm sure you won't either. Doing so also makes your product look more professional, and broadly useful.

 

Regarding Chapter 8, I don't think fitting 3 or 4 monsters per page is a realistic goal. If you are using the "Character Brief" format and really fine font on a two column page with narrow page margins you "might" manage to cram 4 stat-blocks onto a single page. But that won't leave much (if any) room for descriptions or flavor text. Furthermore, spellcasters and creatures with unusual abilities or wondrous items will need at least half a page of line-space even assuming the formatting restrictions mentioned above. I would triple, or even quadruple your expected page count for this chapter.

 

Finally, Artwork sells gaming products better than tightly formatted and well written text (just look at the shit Paizo puts out for proof of that). If you plan to include enough art to catch the consumer's eye, expect to increase your page count by another half-again (or even double).

 

I'm sticking fairly close to the 3.5 D&D Players Handbook layout.  That should be familiar to most fantasy players and they'll see it as the "right" way to learn a game system.  I figure the first page is just a super-quick intro to how Hero works.  They can read it, get a general idea of how you roll dice and what it means, and then that gets more thoroughly fleshed out when you get to the chapters on combat and skills.

 

Regarding adjustment powers, active point limits, different types of campaigns, etc, no way.  No way, no how.  That's how this sort of thing balloons into a 300 page book.  This isn't a new version of Fantasy Hero.  This is just to get new people playing.  There won't be adjustment powers in the game.  Certainly nothing that targets equipment.  They don't need to know active points or anything like that.

 

We also don't need to build a game economy within the intro book.  1st ed D&D didn't do that.  It's enough for the players to know that a sword costs 25 gold, and they start with 150 gold.  The equipment costs are balanced so that the fighter can have a good sword, good armor, a shield, and a horse.  The mage can buy his spellbook and robes.  The thief can get his thief tools and whatever else he needs.  Basically it's just a way of letting people get starting equipment.  No more, no less.

 

A magic multipower will not be a problem the way I'm thinking of it.  The mage can cast one spell per phase, unless it's something that takes extra time.  Effectively the writer of the product builds the spells and the magic system ahead of time, balances everything, and then lets the players make a few easy decisions.  They don't know they're using a multipower until they learn the full rules with the regular book, and then they're like "oh, I see how they did that now".  So there's no opportunity for abuse.

 

Let's say (off the top of my head) that you have 4 spell levels.  To cast Level 1 spells, you pay 30 points.  This gives you a 40 point multipower, with gestures and incantations (-1/2 total), costing 27 points.  It also gives you one 1st level spell (the first fixed slot in your multipower, costing 3 points).  Every additional 1st level spell costs 3 points.  It's another slot.  But all the player knows is that he's a 1st level caster, and he bought 3 extra spells, so he paid 39 points.  To cast Level 2 spells, you pay 45 points, which gives you like a 60 point multipower with a sample spell.  And so on.

 

There might also be a cost listed for each spell, if you just wanted to buy it on its own.  So if a fighter wants to spend his leftover points buying the Fire Blast spell (or whatever), he can do that.  He won't get it for 3 points, he has to pay 15 or something.  Whatever the real cost would be.  The book doesn't have to explain any of that.  Just if you pay to be a Level 1 spellcaster, each extra spell is 3 points.  If you just want one spell and only one spell, you get the "discounted" rate of buying it separately.

 

As far as the monster pages, maybe you're right that I'd need more room.  But how much flavor text does "Orc soldier" need?