Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Sam On Maui

Do you allow players to Respec?

Recommended Posts

Given that HERO has a learning curve, characters develop organically, and everything is point-buy versus being random? Do you allow players to "respec"? A chance to revise their build, possible retcon bits of history? Especially in supers games?

If so, under what conditions? Does it require a goal of sorts? Do you require they buy it with XP (arguably because they'll be spending more efficiently the second time 'round)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all of my campaigns (Pathfinder & HERO), I've always allowed at least one total rebuild (or nearly total) of your character at any time. I also allow minor changes to be made with permission between sessions. Likewise you can always decide to start a new character instead, and typically the new character will inherit the Experience of the old character (because I like to keep everyone in the campaign at the same total/level).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all of my campaigns (Pathfinder & HERO), I've always allowed at least one total rebuild (or nearly total) of your character at any time. I also allow minor changes to be made with permission between sessions. Likewise you can always decide to start a new character instead, and typically the new character will inherit the Experience of the old character (because I like to keep everyone in the campaign at the same total/level).

 

Absolutely yes.  To me, it's even if a character dies.  I don't want to penalize for that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all of my campaigns (Pathfinder & HERO), I've always allowed at least one total rebuild (or nearly total) of your character at any time. I also allow minor changes to be made with permission between sessions. Likewise you can always decide to start a new character instead, and typically the new character will inherit the Experience of the old character (because I like to keep everyone in the campaign at the same total/level).

We've been doing "group experience" like this for Iron Kingdoms RPG (2012) and yeah, it makes life SO much easier. Sure, sometimes folks have to play catchup because they missed a week or two (real life/family first - not going to penalize for that), and yeah, its wonderful.

 

We allow a respec there too, but I think its once players hit Epic level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot imagine not letting players make respecs.

Nothing is worse than getting stuck with your valuable points wasted on stuff you don't like.

In every game we play I allow a player's characters to be tweeked a little here and a little there. If it makes sense just do it. If it is something out there or weird then arrange a "radiation accent".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that HERO has a learning curve, characters develop organically, and everything is point-buy versus being random? Do you allow players to "respec"? A chance to revise their build, possible retcon bits of history? Especially in supers games?

 

If so, under what conditions? Does it require a goal of sorts? Do you require they buy it with XP (arguably because they'll be spending more efficiently the second time 'round)?

For the first 4 sessions or so, I will let a player totally rebuild their character as long as they keep the basic powerset the same.

 

I find that even with more than 30 Years of experience with the system. That sometimes powersets and individual constructs don't work as well as we imagine when the Character is made. Sometimes you have to come at an ability in a different way.

 

Also, during that time (and later if I have to) I as GM reserve the right to retroactively disallow a power construct that proves unbalanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My current GM typically allows changes to character point distributions (i.e. respecs) if a] discussed with him in advance; b] the changes generally make cinematic sense (including the GM's arranging of a 'radiation accident' or similar, if needed; and c) he approves all changes before the revised character is used in game.

 

Examples of things that may trigger a change in character point distributions include but are not limited to:

  • A major character drops out of the game due to its player's inability to continue to attend sessions, and one of the other characters is relatively close in capabilities, can cover gap left by the drop-out (if minor tweaks are made), and its player desires to fill that gap
  • Buying more DEX results in wasted pts in SPD (it's a 5er game) and the player has no plans to increase SPD; the GM will allow the excess points In SPD to be recovered at the time the DEX is purchased -- provided this is done between sessions and the GM approves the DEX increase in the first place
  • Buying primary characteristics (as per DEX, above) that result in an increase in figured characteristics (as per SPD, above) and the player has no plans to increase the figured characteristics; again the GM will allow the excess points in the figured characteristics (as per SPD, above) to be recovered at the time the primary characteristic is purchased -- provided this is done between sessions and the GM approves the primary characteristic increase in the first place
  • Something unplanned by a player happens to a character in the game that justifies a change in point distribution in a way that makes cinematic sense and the player of the character to whom it happens wishes to capitalize on the timing with GM oversight/approval
  • A player with a large number of saved experience points wishes to spend them in bulk to add new, previously unknown capabilities to his/her character
  • A relatively inexperienced new player joins the game and, through coaching from other experienced players, finds that his/her character build has gross inefficiencies within it that require attention; the GM will allow this to be addressed through multiple changes across multiple sessions provided the other players are ok with it (no 'radiation accident' needed, as this is often a tightening of character concept) in order to help ensure the problematic character is both fun and effective to play

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they buy a Respec Token for 1,000 Nolgrothians (about $10), sure.  :winkgrin:

 

Seriously, I tinker a lot with settings and games so it comes down to almost needing to respec every once in a while. When the Sixth Edition came out, the entire group rebuilt their characters to fit within the new rules set. Actually, one player did it for everybody, but you see what I mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Buying more DEX results in wasted pts in SPD (it's a 5er game) and the player has no plans to increase SPD; the GM will allow the excess points In SPD to be recovered at the time the DEX is purchased -- provided this is done between sessions and the GM approves the DEX increase in the first place
  • Buying primary characteristics (as per DEX, above) that result in an increase in figured characteristics (as per SPD, above) and the player has no plans to increase the figured characteristics; again the GM will allow the excess points in the figured characteristics (as per SPD, above) to be recovered at the time the primary characteristic is purchased -- provided this is done between sessions and the GM approves the primary characteristic increase in the first place

Your 2nd and 3rd points are why I'm very glad I don't play/run 5th edition anymore. While the idea of figured characteristics make a lot of sense, I think they also contributed a lot to Hero's reputation for being math-heavy and hard to build characters in.

Also, the idea that you need the GM's permission to recover points from not raising Figured Characteristics when you raise your Primary Characteristics is ridiculous to me (but I play 6th edition, so the whole thing seems a little silly to me now). Anytime you make changes to a character, it should be audited to determine it's actual current point value before it re-enters play. Considering you're playing 5th, I'd be auditing all those changes in Hero Designer since it vastly simplifies the process of calculating figured characteristics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they buy a Respec Token for 1,000 Nolgrothians (about $10), sure.  :winkgrin:

 

Seriously, I tinker a lot with settings and games so it comes down to almost needing to respec every once in a while. When the Sixth Edition came out, the entire group rebuilt their characters to fit within the new rules set. Actually, one player did it for everybody, but you see what I mean.

 

I will purchase a respec for 5,000 quatloos!

 

As an old friend of mine would say... How much is that in feet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did have one player whom I allowed to play an "Emergent Super" that came into the campaign with no powers (and a huge number of unspent points), and slowly acquired various powers during the course of the campaign. They usually acquired one power per session, most of them were picked straight out of Champions Powers,​ and paid for on the spot out of his pool of unspent points. If I recall the character's backstory was that they had numerous otherworldly beings vying to give them power, so each of the disparate powers were "Divine Gifts" from this entity or that. That character was the exception though, not the rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. See? That was easy to answer.  I'd go into more details but everyone else already covered the 'why' for me.

 

Most often, though, if a character doesn't quite work out the way they originally planned (or way more often, the player thought of a better way to create the character concept), then go ahead. Just let us GMs look at the finished product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made a character who was kind of like Miracleman by Allan Moore: he swapped bodies with ones stored in a kind of limbo where they slept.  His mind was retained, but the body was different.  However, he had no control over what he'd become.  So I had this large number of prebuilt multiforms the GM would choose randomly from when he activated his power.  Only got to play one session with him, though :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have always rebuilt our characters between sessions. I didn't know that not doing it was even a thing.

Between sessions?  Meaning your characters can be markedly different from session to session??  That would be ... weird ... at least for any kind of long-running game where some semblance of continuity is expected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Between sessions?  Meaning your characters can be markedly different from session to session??  That would be ... weird ... at least for any kind of long-running game where some semblance of continuity is expected.

 

Generally they don't end up being markedly different.  If you're changing your character concept, that's a little more involved and usually you talk to the GM about it.  But as far as just adjusting the character build?  Yeah we used to do that pretty regularly.

 

So let's say you've got the following character (5th edition):

 

 

 

Captain Freedom

Str 60

Dex 20

Con 30

Body 15

Int 18

Ego 15

Pre 25

Com 14

 

PD 30

ED 30

Spd 5

Rec 18

End 60

Stun 60

 

30/30 DR

30" Leaping

12" Running

 

+2 w/ HTH

Breakfall 13-

Persuasion 14-

SS: Physics 13-

SS: Biology 13-

Stealth 13-

Systems Operation 13-

 

And you've got 5 XP saved up.  You want to spend those points, and maybe save some points with a more efficient build.  You want him to look like this:

 

 

 

Captain Freedom

Str 60

Dex 24

Con 30

Body 15

Int 18

Ego 15

Pre 25

Com 14

 

PD 30

ED 30

Spd 5

Rec 18

End 60

Stun 60

 

30/30 DR

 

18 pt Multipower "Enhanced physique"

2u -- 30" Leaping

1u -- 12" Running

1u -- 10" Swimming

 

+2 w/ HTH

Breakfall 13-

Persuasion 14-

Stealth 13-

Systems Operation 13-

 

Scientist

SS: Chemistry 13-

SS: Physics 13-

SS: Biology 13-

SS: Metallurgy 13-

 

The math on that second writeup should work out.  The character should be 5 points more expensive.  Now, stat-wise, he's certainly a more powerful character.  He's got two more science skills, he's got 4 points more Dex, one extra OCV and DCV, and he's got some increased swimming.  But character description-wise, he hasn't really changed at all.  He's a bit faster than we've seen him before, but I don't think there's anything that would mess with continuity.

 

Comic book characters have uneven performances all the time.  Character A can beat Character B, until this one issue where Character B wins.  Sometimes Superman is exposed to Kryptonite and he falls over helpless, other times he grits his teeth and powers through it.  Somebody suddenly having 5 more Str, or his abilities are in a multipower now instead of separate isn't that big a deal.  Letting a player tweak his character so that it gets closer to his idea of what the character should look like hasn't really been a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The math on that second writeup should work out.  The character should be 5 points more expensive.  Now, stat-wise, he's certainly a more powerful character.  He's got two more science skills, he's got 4 points more Dex, one extra OCV and DCV, and he's got some increased swimming.  But character description-wise, he hasn't really changed at all.  He's a bit faster than we've seen him before, but I don't think there's anything that would mess with continuity.

 

Comic book characters have uneven performances all the time.  Character A can beat Character B, until this one issue where Character B wins.  Sometimes Superman is exposed to Kryptonite and he falls over helpless, other times he grits his teeth and powers through it.  Somebody suddenly having 5 more Str, or his abilities are in a multipower now instead of separate isn't that big a deal.  Letting a player tweak his character so that it gets closer to his idea of what the character should look like hasn't really been a problem.

I think the issue arises when you reduce things.  For example, if several sessions later the character went back to having a 20 DEX ... after establishing at 24 DEX that s/he generally is first to act on the team ... and after demonstrating that s/he is better at DEX-based skills than a fellow teammate (who had a 20 DEX all along) ... that's rather an issue .... at least in games in which I play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was in college we had two usually seperate Champions groups that were partially connected by one of the GMs. The  "power gamer" group would respec after every game.  Our group would not, we'd just add experience to our base build. The other group were into beating the enemy to a pulp with little character growth. We were roleplayers.  We both enjoyed our games until said GM started using the same villians with both groups.  Villians built to fight the tricked out heroes from the more agressive game.  That forced experience bloat and complete rewrites on us at regular intervals.  

 

I ended up with a cosmic level power set  that I really didn't need.  It eventualy strangled the universe.  We tried to redo the characters at a lower level, but we were never the same.  Don't misunderstand  me, I still love Lumiere (named before  Champions was published and chosen by my friend, who was less fluent in French than I  realized at the time) but she became unplayable.

 

So, the value of respecing really depends on the gamers. Just be consistant and remember, characters that can no longer grow because thier build is too tight can cause more trouble than you think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the issue arises when you reduce things.  For example, if several sessions later the character went back to having a 20 DEX ... after establishing at 24 DEX that s/he generally is first to act on the team ... and after demonstrating that s/he is better at DEX-based skills than a fellow teammate (who had a 20 DEX all along) ... that's rather an issue .... at least in games in which I play.

 

Funny thing is our abilities is real life are equally dynamic. When I was in martial arts we would frequently see guys who were awesome and got busy for a few weeks lose a significant edge. The same for those who enjoy football or MMA.

 

In comics this is expressed as an issue to issue change.

 

PS: I really see large changes or irrational ones. What I tend to see more often is "I bought this did talent Deadly Blow, it sucks and is overpriced." So I tell them sure go ahead and redirect those points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...