Can you turn on or off an advantage ?

[Basic204]

I wanted to know can you turn an advantage on or off if you paid for it ? 

 

Just like the say you can't take a dis-advantage that not really a dis-advantage. So if I have selective on a power can I choose not to use selective if I don't want too ?

[Armitage]

An Advantage has to be used, unless it's a Naked Advantage/Independent Advantage, which is a separate Power.

 

6E1 316

"Advantages Are Mandatory.  A character must always use the Advantages purchased for a Power at full strength whenever he uses that Power."

 

CC 95

"Advantages are mandatory; a character must always use a Power's Advantages at full strength whenever he uses that Power."

[Hyper-Man]

Not if the Advantage is applied directly to the base Power.

 

From 6e1 page 316
 

USING POWER ADVANTAGES
A Power with a Power Advantage is a distinct power — it’s “new,” completely different from that Power without that Advantage.
ADVANTAGES ARE MANDATORY
A character must always use the Advantages purchased for a Power at full strength whenever he uses that Power. For example, a character cannot buy a Blast, Armor Piercing and use the Blast without its AP effect, or buy a Drain STR 5d6, Area Of Effect (10m Radius) and use the area at only 4m.

 

However, there are several ways around this:

1. If the base Power is a Slot inside of a Multipower then another Slot can be purchased without the Advantage.  This is one of the primary reasons for the existence of many 'Attack Multipowers'.

2. Purchase the Variable Advantage for the base Power and define a group of smaller Advantages that can be switched between on the base Power (basically a mini-Multipower for Advantages). One of the Advantages still has to be active so it's still not as good as a separate Multipower Slot.

3. Build the Advantage separately as a Naked Advantage.  This becomes a new and separate Power that also costs END.

4. If the base Power is a Slot inside of a Variable Power Pool (VPP) then the character can always switch to another version of the Power without the Advantage.  The functional restrictions being whether the VPP was constructed with the No Skill Roll Required (+1), Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1) Advantages.  If both are in place then it works just like the Multipower example above with an 'infinite' number of Slots to choose from. Without the VPP specific Advantages in place the switching is a little more complicated.

 

HM

[steriaca]

If you want an advantage you can "switch on" and "switch off", you can do the following...

 

1) Buy the power multiple times in a Multipower, one with the advantage "on" and one with the advantage "off".

 

2) Buy an Naked Advantage for the power in question.

 

3) Buy the power with the advantage Variable Advantage, and simply put the advantage you want as part of the list for it. Note: you must use one of the listed advantages at all times.

 

4) Create a new advantage called "Can Turn Advantages On And Off". Such an advantage should be expensive (+1 or even +2).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there should be an advantage adder or a +1/4 you can stick on "switchable" that lets you toggle it on or off as you choose.  Maybe a bigger adder/advantage that allows the advantage to be modified, but only to make it lesser:  

"I want this Area Effect Radius to only have 3m rather than its usual 6m."  

"I want this Usable by Others nearby to just be 1 person."

 

That's worth some points (because otherwise you'd have to build it into a framework or buy another power) but not a lot of points, because its the same power but used in a less powerful way.  And its something most people think you can do, or at least should be able to do.

[Hyper-Man]

Variable Advantage usually covers that already since it can be purchased at reduced price for a limited number of Advantages to choose from and just make one of the choices Reduced END.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's why I think the cost of+1/4 is actually too big, given the significant variety of variable advantage vs what this does.  And Variable Advantage won't let you simply shut off the advantage, either.

 

I think an adder makes more sense but the question is how to make it work.

 

If it wasn't such a mathematical pain, I'd say make it an advantage on the advantage (rather than the full power), something that makes the advantage slightly more but not a full 1/4 and only allows this variation.

[zslane]

I'm not a big fan of new rules that seek to circumvent more fundamental ones. Of course, anyone is free to redesign the game as they see fit, but the RAW is pretty clear on this and it hasn't been a game-breaking problem for 35 years. Quite honestly, an "advantage on an advantage" looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.

[Beast]

buy more slots(losing an advantage can up your damage potential and keep you in the same active points range)
buy or convert that MP to a VPP

I bought Blip(teleporting MA) a VPP just because I was coming up with too much nuanced stuff for her to do w/ teleport

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think that almost everyone who first reads through and plays hero thinks that advantages can be turned on and off when desired.  Not having a clear, simple, and direct mechanism to do this and just this is a bit of a hole in the rules.

[zslane]

Is it really a hole though?

 

I'm sure that almost everyone who first reads through and plays Hero thinks all kinds of incorrect things about the system. That's not the system's fault, though it could be seen as a failure of presentation. More often, though, it is simply the reader bringing invalid assumptions and expectations (usually from other games) to the reading. So rather than constantly seek to twist the system into something that seems more intuitive, I suggest playing the RAW first and then tweak as needed once you've mastered the RAW.

 

At which point I again have to ask, is this really a hole in the design? Or are you just personally disagreeing with a core design choice made by Steve and George?

[Hugh Neilson]

The rule is simply that an advantage turns the power into a different power. Which advantages logically can be turned on and off at will? Those that logically can seem already to reflect this.

 

Please provide me an example where it makes sense that the ability loses its advantage when I don't want to use the advantage. The Autofire Blast still CAN be fired multiple times if I choose to fire it once, and Usable by Others still was Usable by Others when I chose to use it myself. I don't see a choice between a hand grenade exploding or just hitting one guy, or my claws becoming less sharp because I don't want them to be AP Penetrating against this target.

 

For those instances where it is appropriate, a Multipower or Naked Advantage does the trick. Those abilities seem the exception, not the norm.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Please provide me an example where it makes sense that the ability loses its advantage when I don't want to use the advantage.

 

 

Area effect is a pretty clear one; you lose the easy targeting and multiple target effect.  Armor piercing is another.  Reduced END Cost is another, almost all of them get worse when the advantage is turned off, that's why you pay more and its called an "advantage."

 

Sure, it doesn't make sense a grenade can be single targeted but Cyclops' eyebeam?  Some person able to control fire?  The concept is pretty sound which is why we have the answers on how to do it in the posts above (multipower etc) and that you gave.  You'll note each of these cost more points, Hero code for 'this is more useful and powerful.'

[zslane]

Indeed. And with power frameworks, there already exists a mechanism to build variants of a power without having to make power modifiers themselves switchable.

 

Could they have designed the Hero System differently? Sure. But they didn't. If the question is, "How do you do this in the Hero System?" the answer is already there, right in the rules. If the question is, "How could this have been designed into the Hero System better?", then you're opening up the floor to another consensus-defying debate. I don't think the OP intended to open that can of worms, and really just seeks to understand the RAW.

[Hugh Neilson]

Area effect is a pretty clear one; you lose the easy targeting and multiple target effect.

It is an example of an advantage I might want to shut off, but cannot, when I would prefer no collateral damage.

 

Armor piercing is another.

The drawback being the extra END if my target's defenses are hardened. But I can't just choose not to use that aspect of the attack. What power logically could?

 

Reduced END Cost is another,

Here there is no detriment in any case I can think of (maybe being unable to Push).

 

Sure, it doesn't make sense a grenade can be single targeted but Cyclops' eyebeam?  Some person able to control fire?  The concept is pretty sound which is why we have the answers on how to do it in the posts above (multipower etc) and that you gave.  You'll note each of these cost more points, Hero code for 'this is more useful and powerful.'

I suggest those characters have a choice of different attack powers they can use (a multipower) not a single attack with advantages they can switch on and off.

[steriaca]

I suggest those characters have a choice of different attack powers they can use (a multipower) not a single attack with advantages they can switch on and off.

Sorry Huge. I went crazy with the backspace to erase what I don't want.

 

Anyways, your right. A special effect of "attack power b" can be "it looks exactly like attack power a". Which gives the perfect excuse to put them into a Multipower and reduce the cost using Unified Power on it (as "attack power a" and "attack power b" have the same special effect and is defined as "same power, different effect").

[Cassandra]

A Multipower is an easy way to avoid using an advantage.

 

Multipower (60 Points)

u) EB 12d6

u) EB 6d6, Area Effect 3"r (+1/2)

 

Conversely you would buy a Power with Variable Advantage.  For a +1 cost you can use any +1/2 or two +1/4 Advantages with the power in question.

[Storn]

Philosophically, I believe that I paid the points for the Advantage, I should be able to turn it off and on.  It is just cleaner and easier than the inelegant ways to circumnavigate it.  It is one of those things that "you have to have it bought perfectly and can only use it the way it was bought" that flys counter to any superhero comic I've ever read and often, lots of fantasy magic systems.  Lastly, it just seems to stifle creativity at the table.  

 

It is one of the reasons that I still play Champions reluctantly and not enthusiastically.  

[steriaca]

The rules are the rules. But the rules are only surggestions. You got to know which rules can and can not be tweaked or ignored. This is probably why the 6ed is sold as a "toolkit".

 

In other words, "It's Your Game, Do As You Feal With It".

[death tribble]

Think of a grenade. This is an energy blast with explosion. You cannot turn off the explosive power. That's how I see it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, but that's a special effect you're defining the power by rather than the other way around.  You have a power that you define as grenade, which then cannot have its area turned off.  That doesn't define area effect, it defines your special effect.

[zslane]

Philosophically, I believe that I paid the points for the Advantage, I should be able to turn it off and on.

 

I can see where you're coming from. Alas, your philosophy is somewhat at odds with the design of the system. You believe you paid points for an Advantage when, more precisely, you paid points for a power with an Advantage. The only time you pay points for the Advantage itself, philosophically speaking, is when you buy a "naked" Advantage.

 

Now, you can always argue that your philosophy is superior to the Hero System philosophy, but that feels like a debate for a different thread. I don't think the OP is looking for competing philosophies.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Alas, your philosophy is somewhat at odds with the design of the system.

 

 

Only the system as written.  I know from experience games have been played, entire campaigns where people were allowed to use their powers with and without the advantage.  Nothing dire took place. I personally think that kind of flexibility is worth paying for, so it should be a slight advantage, but it wasn't impactful at all.  I just don't get the strident resistance to the idea of an advantage that does this.

[zslane]

Well mostly because it isn't necessary. It is only when perceived deficiencies in the RAW nags at one's personal sense of what makes for a better game system that one insists on pursuing such a change to the rules. Until the OP asks for a hack to "fix" the RAW, I don't see why we should push an unnecessary one on him.

[steriaca]

Well mostly because it isn't necessary. It is only when perceived deficiencies in the RAW nags at one's personal sense of what makes for a better game system that one insists on pursuing such a change to the rules. Until the OP asks for a hack to "fix" the RAW, I don't see why we should push an unnecessary one on him.

Then lets not push him to a non-RAW pet fix. The rules legal ways are fine (Multipower, Variable Advantage, and Nakid Advantage). No need to "break the rules" just because you can. Besides, there is probably a darn good reason the game designers decided on "Advantages Are Mandatory" rule.

 

Next thing someone will try is to prove that you don't have to have Limitations which are mandatory...