Simulating Faster Recovery from Adjustment Powers

[CptPatriot]

I was thinking to make a character that recovered points at a faster rate than the 5 points per recovery period, say 10 or even 15.

This is what I came up with:

 

Rapid Recovery:  Power Defense (10 points) (10 Active Points);

Only to Simulate Rapid Recovery (Tries to sim the increase of the return of Negative Adjustment Powers to 10 points a turn from 5; -1)

 

I'm trying to get an opinion as how much a limitation it is worth. Let's assume a Superheroic game for now.

[Hyper-Man]

I voted (-1) since it would far less effective vs. a Drain built with the Delayed Fade Rate Advantage.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

Rapid Recovery:  Power Defense (10 points) (10 Active Points);

Only to Simulate Rapid Recovery (Tries to sim the increase of the return of Negative Adjustment Powers to 10 points a turn from 5; -1)

I agree with the -1, here, and voted to reflect it.  That said, I take it you'd still have this apply only once (as a defense to the adjustment power in question), as usual for Power Defense, yes?

[CptPatriot]

Yeah, my idea was that each 5 points you bought would impact 1 return rate, so, in the case of the above example, 10 pts of Power Defense would impact two recoveries.

 

I suppose another way it could have been applied would be to return all the points the power defense should have defended you against in the very first recovery period.

[CptPatriot]

I suppose I should also ask a related question.

 

What sort of Physical Complication would a similar loss of points from positive adjustment powers be worth?

[Surrealone]

I don't know how I feel about using a Defense Power (such as Power Defense) as if it were an Adjustment Power or Special Power.  You're taking something that's basically 0-END Persistent ... that applies only once ... and having it apply multiple times ... to recover from an Adjustment Power (such as Drain or Transformation) rather than to defend against it exactly once in the equation.  On the surface, with one Drain being used to work the math, this looks ok.  But what happens when there are multiple Drains in play?  It seems too cheap to me -- for what it is -- when you consider that scenario.

 

IMHO, the power you suggest behaves a lot more like Regen to a drained ability/characteristic ... than it does a defense.  Or, perhaps it's more like a Triggered Healing with limitations on what triggers it ... as well as gradual effect.

​I think you get the idea.

[CptPatriot]

I don't know how I feel about using a Defense Power (such as Power Defense) as if it were an Adjustment Power or Special Power.  You're taking something that's basically 0-END Persistent ... that applies only once ... and having it apply multiple times ... to recover from an Adjustment Power (such as Drain or Transformation) rather than to defend against it exactly once in the equation.  On the surface, with one Drain being used to work the math, this looks ok.  But what happens when there are multiple Drains in play?  It seems too cheap to me -- for what it is -- when you consider that scenario.

 

IMHO, the power you suggest behaves a lot more like Regen to a drained ability/characteristic ... than it does a defense.  Or, perhaps it's more like a Triggered Healing with limitations on what triggers it ... as well as gradual effect.

​I think you get the idea.

I think you misunderstood me. I am not trying to make this work for every recovery period, just one period for every 5 points in Power Defense. I wanted it to act as a simple method of showing the character's ability to bounce back from Drains. The idea that the defense works but with a delayed response. You only get back the points that the defense normally would have protected you from.

[Surrealone]

I think you misunderstood me. I am not trying to make this work for every recovery period, just one period for every 5 points in Power Defense. I wanted it to act as a simple method of showing the character's ability to bounce back from Drains. The idea that the defense works but with a delayed response. You only get back the points that the defense normally would have protected you from.

I understood you ... and you could always use charges to limit how many turns it'd work for if it were regen ... or use diceage plus the Gradual Effect limitation if it were Healing ... to control how many times it worked.

 

The issue I'm raising is a conceptual and mechanical one:

Defense Powers serve to reduce the effects of an Attack Power before those effects are applied.  Meanwhile, some Adjustment/Special Powers (such as Healing, Regeneration, Aid) are used to recover from (i.e. bounce back from ... to use your words) the effects of Attack Powers once those effects have been applied.  The Adjustment Powers that allow for this are generally significantly more costly than the Defense Powers that help reduce the effects of Attack Powers before application to the character.

 

Thus, you're taking something that is very cheap (a Defense Power) ... and using it to do what more expensive (Adjustment/Special) powers typically do.  Given this, I believe you should be using the powers that actually exist for your purpose (again: to help a character bounce back faster)  ... to do what you want ... rather than doing an end-run around the existing powers which will already exactly serve your need ... for the sole purpose of shaving costs by using a Defense Power as if it were an Adjustment/Special Power.

 

To wit -- Hero System by and large makes it more costly to heal or recover from damage taken ... than it costs to mitigate said damage on the way in (prior to application) using defenses -- regardless of the type of damage we're talking about.  I feel you should be paying that higher cost for something that lets you bounce back after soaking the damage ... since that's what you want to do and that's how Hero System has generally priced doing such things.

[CptPatriot]

Well, if I bought it as plain Power Defense, the character in question would have been protected ahead of time and the character attacking gets no benefit from the attack beyond. All I was trying to do is to simulate something akin to a faster metabolism. The attacker gets the benefit of their attack working as they had desired, and the player is protected, just needs to suffer the effect of the Drain for a shorter period of time.

 

Would you prefer this power instead?

 

Rapid Recovery:Healing Everything 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Metahuman Powers (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Hit with Negative Adjustment Power and one Turn has elapsed; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Expanded Effect (x8 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+3 1/2) (155 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) (Real Cost: 103)

 

This uses the GM option rule for Adjustment Powers on 6E1 142 & CC 104:

 

At the GM’s option, if an Adjustment Power also has the Variable Effect Advantage, buying Expanded Effect at the “eight game elements simultaneously” level (+3½) allows the character to affect all game elements of the defined special effect at once, even if there are more than eight of them.

 

This is the closest way I could come up with that would heal the character after a Turn from being hit with the Adjustment power and not have to be used proactively.

[Chris Goodwin]

In 6e, Regeneration costs 2 points for 1 BODY per level faster on the Time Chart.  10 points would give you +5 BODY, one level faster on the time chart.  Why not use that?  If I were the GM I'd tweak it a bit -- maybe make it 10 points per level to counteract increased fade time on Drains.

[CptPatriot]

Chris, Regeneration only works on BODY under normal circumstances. The OP is trying to work Power Defense to work against any Adjustment attacks, not just BODY.

[Beast]

this should heal any drain and simply goes off every post 12

 

22 pts Healing BODY 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; it goes off every post 12; +1/4), Characteristics (any power or characteristic; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (self only only vs adjustment powers; -1)

 

 

or this

 

3pts  +5 REC, Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Common Circumstances (only post 12; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (only vs adjustment effects; -1/2)

[CptPatriot]

So, Beast, are you saying buying your version of Healing is better than what I was proposing as a simple solution?

 

I think you are missing the Expanded Effect and Variable Effect advantages you need to heal every stat.

[Chris Goodwin]

Chris, Regeneration only works on BODY under normal circumstances. The OP is trying to work Power Defense to work against any Adjustment attacks, not just BODY.

 

You are correct, though one of the APGs suggests using it for other Characteristics.  I'm also pointing out that there's a rationale for 10 points allowing you to return 5 points worth of something one level faster on the time chart, and suggesting that 10 points would be a good price for this sort of thing.  

 

If you're creating a character for someone else's game, talk to your GM.  If you're the GM, I suggest Regeneration.  I honestly think that this is a better fit than trying to misuse Power Defense for this.  

 

Edit:  Beast's suggestion above also works, if you were to add Decreased Re-use Duration (down to 1 Turn) and make it Constant rather than Trigger.  

[CptPatriot]

Here is power proposal #1 that Beast suggested with the corrections that were needed to actually work as intended:

 

Beast's Proposed Rapid Recovery:Healing Everything 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Goes off Post-segment 12; +1/4), Any Power and Characteristic Below Starting Level (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Expanded Effect (x8 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+3 1/2) (145 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Only vs Adjustment Powers effects (-1/2)

 

The Real Cost for this power is 72 points. Using Constant as opposed to Trigger would not allow its function when rendered unconscious

 

I rejected Beast's second proposal as no application of Variable Special Effect or Variable Effect would ever allow REC to affect any characteristic other than STUN, BODY, and personal END.

 

Now, if I used Regeneration, assuming the optional rules in the APG, for using other characteristics, it won't work as Regeneration is not an Adjustment power. One cannot add Expanded Effect on Regeneration unless you are house ruling, which I'm trying to avoid as it invalidates my efforts to keep things simple.

 

Anyway, I'm gonna nip this in the bud. No one has said anything to invalidate the use of Power Defense in the manner I described. It is a not being used to circumvent the rules and I found it a simple and elegant solution. All I was asking was what would be an appropriate Limitation size. Buying a Defense and having a Limitation to change how the damage the Defense protected you from is applied is perfectly legal. I see no further need for debate on this matter.

[Chris Goodwin]

Ah, now that I reread everything, I see.  It was my error, I apologize.  

 

I think the Limitation you're looking for would effectively be Only Vs. Drains.  I don't think I'd go more than -1/2, but -1 might not be out of the question depending on the GM.

[Beast]

I'm only going for 1 drain at a time
I think using a defense to aid in the recovery time is incorrect (imho)
if your gm will allow it then it is correct

So, Beast, are you saying buying your version of Healing is better than what I was proposing as a simple solution?

I think you are missing the Expanded Effect and Variable Effect advantages you need to heal every stat.

[Surrealone]

In 6e, Regeneration costs 2 points for 1 BODY per level faster on the Time Chart.  10 points would give you +5 BODY, one level faster on the time chart.  Why not use that?  If I were the GM I'd tweak it a bit -- maybe make it 10 points per level to counteract increased fade time on Drains.

This is basically the direction I was headed in for Regeneration, too -- i.e. permitting it to apply to something other than BODY per APG ...

[CptPatriot]

I'm only going for 1 drain at a time

I think using a defense to aid in the recovery time is incorrect (imho)

if your gm will allow it then it is correct

 

 

This is basically the direction I was headed in for Regeneration, too -- i.e. permitting it to apply to something other than BODY per APG ...

 

For the cost of these alternate solutions, I can just buy a huge block of Power Defense straight and call it a night.