Guns in a Fantasy Settings: Tips and Tricks for a GM

[Scott Ruggels]

I'd probably give someone breech loading an old rifle ½dcv too, its not quite like slapping in a new magazine

 Actually I may step back, and if' it''s a paper cartridge loaded Breech loader, it's still full DCV, but... you get one (1) shot per reload.  If the enemy is too close, then after discharge you get full DCV and your weapon is now a pole arm (Stabby stabby.)

[Old Man]

I'd probably give someone breech loading an old rifle ½dcv too, its not quite like slapping in a new magazine

 

I'd give the breechloader 1/2 DCV for an extra phase and the muzzleloader 0 DCV for a turn.  And I think that's being generous to the muzzleloader.  Loading one of those is a serious chore.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah a turn is really impressive reload time, considering 4 shots a minute was considered the best in the world, but Heroes!

[algesan]

Seriously?  Wellllll, let's start with the fact that using iron sights on my old M16, I'd have no problem engaging targets at 300m with a good chance of scoring a hit, expect to hit at 200m with regularity (>75%), almost guarantee a hit at 100m (unless the target ducks on time), etc.  Similar results with similar rifles.  With my carbine, about 100m would be my limit, but that is mainly because it uses a pistol round, not a rifle round, so power issues would come into effect.  Pistols of a variety of calibers, no problem taking the shot at 30-40m, but combat ranges work more as 10m.  With high quality handguns and professional shooters, 200m isn't an unreasonable range, the weapons will work that far...with IRON SIGHTS.  Oh, the 10m range I noted personally above...at that range, I can put 45 rounds (three full clips) at speed (every time the gun comes back "into battery", I put a round downrange) entirely inside the torso of a human target.  I'd offer more on pistols, but IMO pistols are what you carry when you aren't expecting trouble.  As for shotguns, modern 12 gauge 3" magnum shells using #1 to #000 buckshot, I've seen deer hit and killed at ~100m ranges.

 

Note that most of my *personal* stats listed here are based on what I've fired, not what these weapons are rated for.  After all, effective range on the various .30 caliber versions all are listed at around 1000m (7.62 NATO pretty much). 

 

Other than the law enforcement stats on pistols, I'd pretty much say that you are off by an order of magnitude on all of your ranges.

 

 

On 3/2/2017 at 3:12 PM, Surrealone said:

50m away?  In today's world and dating back to WWI, for accuracy reasons most riflemen using iron sights wouldn't take that shot ... until Ser Knight was 30m or less away. Those with appropriate optics would tend to take shots out to 50m .. perhaps up to 100m.  A designated marksman or sniper with optics to visually compensate for the range ... and with training to address windage and bullet drop would tend to stay inside 300m unless position and equipment (i.e. optics, rifle, and ammo) and situation dictated longer distances to be reasonable.

 

Here's some food for thought to properly set some very rough, MODERN 'gunfighting' distances in your mind:

In the real world, the typical distance in which a handgun is used is 7 meters or less ... with most lethal uses of handguns occurring in under 5 feet.  Law enforcement will sometimes take shots at 15 meters if the background (regarding potential misses) permits it without compromising the safety of innocents.  Pistols are certainly lethal at longer ranges, but they aren't as controllable as firearms that have shoulder stocks, so accuracy suffers enough that most shooter training discourages shots beyond 15 meters.  (i.e. The pistol is typically considered the wrong tool for longer range jobs.)  I mention this to give you reasonable ranges to work with for pistols you might incorporate ... knowing that American Civil War era pistols were even less accurate than those of today.  Think pirate pistol use and you have the right concept of a reasonable range for antique pistols to be used at.

 

12ga shotguns using birdshot in the real world, today, tend to have a 40 inch pattern at 40 meters.  Lethality falls off rapidly thereafter because the pattern is too sparse and the energy too low beyond 40 yards to kill all but small varmints effectively.  (i.e. Birdshot at 50 meters will piss someone off, and may wound him/her ... but it is unlikely to kill him/her in a single shot.  A fully armored knight would likely snicker at a 50 yard birdshot hit ... but would be severely wounded from that same shot at 3-5 meters.)  Thus, shotguns using birdshot will usually be 30-40 meter max range, with 20 meters being preferred/ideal.  Keep in mind this is a sweeping generality based on a modified choke ... knowing that choke variations can and will yield different results.  I'm again throwing this out there to provide some idea of reasonable ranges in a modern shotgun that uses perfectly formed birdshot ... knowing this should likely be tuned for older shotguns and imperfectly formed shot ... with powder that burns nowhere nearly as reliably as today's nitrocellulose-based smokeless powders.

 

That brings us to the rifle, where snipers aside, in modern warfare the average range to the target remains largely unchanged from WWI -- where the average distance was 30-35m.  Shots other than cover fire over 100m are rare ... and the typical max range (again, snipers aside) is 300m.  Since WWI, most designated marksmen and snipers tend to take shots well under 300m ... even today.  There are, of course, outliers given the amazing optics and modern firearm/ammunition combinations specifically designed for long-range anti-personal or anti-material roles (i.e. I'm talking the .338 Lapua, .408 CheyTac, and .50 BMG rifle/ammo combos, here), but those are the exceptions not the rule.

 

 

 

So you asked if you were missing something besides it being better to shoot from behind fortification.  The answer is, 'yes!'  One missing thing is the typical ranges at which firearms tend to be used -- which I think I covered and hopefully helped you wrap your head around.  Your 50m example for a rifle shot was an unusually long shot for a rifle with iron sights ... even today ... let alone 200+ years ago with firearms that had less aerodynamic ammunition and less reliable powder (in terms of ignition and burn consistency)...

 

 

Another missing facet is the one Shadowsoul just touched upon:  the longer the shot, the less damage it does ... because of the loss of energy by the projectile(s) as energy is spent cutting through the wind.  The more aerodynamic and heavy a projectile, the more energy it will maintain and deliver to its target ... provided it is spun adequately by rifling (to promote stability) without being overspun.  The base Hero System RAW completely fail to capture this ballistic concept.

 

[Surrealone]

14 minutes ago, algesan said:

Seriously?  Wellllll, let's start with the fact that using iron sights on my old M16, I'd have no problem engaging targets at 300m with a good chance of scoring a hit, expect to hit at 200m with regularity (>75%), almost guarantee a hit at 100m (unless the target ducks on time), etc.  Similar results with similar rifles.  With my carbine, about 100m would be my limit, but that is mainly because it uses a pistol round, not a rifle round, so power issues would come into effect.  Pistols of a variety of calibers, no problem taking the shot at 30-40m, but combat ranges work more as 10m.  With high quality handguns and professional shooters, 200m isn't an unreasonable range, the weapons will work that far...with IRON SIGHTS.  Oh, the 10m range I noted personally above...at that range, I can put 45 rounds (three full clips) at speed (every time the gun comes back "into battery", I put a round downrange) entirely inside the torso of a human target.  I'd offer more on pistols, but IMO pistols are what you carry when you aren't expecting trouble.  As for shotguns, modern 12 gauge 3" magnum shells using #1 to #000 buckshot, I've seen deer hit and killed at ~100m ranges.[/quote]

With your M16 at what age and with what kind of eyesight?  (Most people aren't demographically in the prime of their lives with perfect vision.)

As for shotguns, ~100m is a reasonable effective range for a slug gun with a rifled barrel, but absolutely ridiculous for my example of birdshot (I was assuming #6 or #8).  Likewise, .308 is certainly effective at 1000 yards, but most people fielding .308's seldom take shots beyond 300 yards -- for (as I said in the first line of the post) "accuracy reasons".  (i.e. The firearm and the round may be capable of 1000 yard lethality, but most people don't shoot that well ... and most non-military personnel flat-out don't have places readily available to safely practice shots that long.)

While your personal statistics may be better than the average shooter's, the numbers I provided are the 'normal' ranges at which people tend to engage.  Do some research and you can confirm the numbers as reasonable (for sweeping generalities) on your own with a little effort.

[algesan]

On 2/26/2018 at 3:49 PM, Surrealone said:

With your M16 at what age and with what kind of eyesight?  (Most people aren't demographically in the prime of their lives with perfect vision.)

As for shotguns, ~100m is a reasonable effective range for a slug gun with a rifled barrel, but absolutely ridiculous for my example of birdshot (I was assuming #6 or #8).  Likewise, .308 is certainly effective at 1000 yards, but most people fielding .308's seldom take shots beyond 300 yards -- for (as I said in the first line of the post) "accuracy reasons".  (i.e. The firearm and the round may be capable of 1000 yard lethality, but most people don't shoot that well ... and most non-military personnel flat-out don't have places readily available to safely practice shots that long.)

While your personal statistics may be better than the average shooter's, the numbers I provided are the 'normal' ranges at which people tend to engage.  Do some research and you can confirm the numbers as reasonable (for sweeping generalities) on your own with a little effort.

Currently in my 50s.  Yep, understand about eyesight, but it appears my aging issues are in the "going long" variety (IOW, I have more trouble with close vision, but not with distant vision). 

Correct on the birdshot, there are also other factors that reduce that range (for example, using 2-3/4" shells in a 3" magnum to get extra rounds in the magazine).

 

Most engagements are at ~300m or less from a study done a long time ago before Vietnam, which is one reason why the USA switched from the M-14 (with 7.82 equivalent) to the M-16 (with 5.56 equivalent).  The 1000m range for the .30 caliber rounds was set (IIRC) because that is about when the round goes subsonic and tumbling gets worse, and this does not speak to any ammo from the last two or three decades that might have improved on that.  I agree on most civilians not having 11000m to shoot, or the skills (I don't, but I'd try it if I had to), but simulated targeting works fairly well on shorter ranges, so you can learn 300m shooting at 10m, although not as easily.  OTOH, I'm more worried about the RPG aspects of this since by its nature, most PCs (and NPCs) are not decrepit, overweight, out of shape, aged individuals.  They tend to be paragons (or at least a bit above average) in physical and mental skills.  A non-military style PC generally has a lot more in common with Sgt York or Rambo than a civilian in most RPGs.  (Yes, there are exceptions here, I've even run several, but the ability to put steel on target when needed is never a bad thing.)

 

People not shooting that well is a function of the amount of training (which is why the Marines have a rep for being better shots than the Army, they spend more time on the range putting steel on target, at least they used to) they get as well as some natural advantages.  I lean more to the training, because most of my "natural" advantages relate more to early exposure to firearms, excellent early teachers, a steady hold (but is that nature or training?), much respect but no fear of firearms, etc.  That being said, I don't consider my skills all that extraordinary compared to members of not only my extended family, but my wife's extended family, as well as a number of unrelated friends.  If you want insane skillz, then I'd suggest an E-5 Sgt from Poland when I was on active duty.  I watched the guy use a M-60 to engage group targets at 1000m+ with a series of single shots during several qualifications.  Remember that the M-60 has no semi setting, it is full auto with only user trigger control to set the size of a burst.  I mention him because when I asked him how the heck he shot like that, he told me about years of Warsaw Pact training: Go to range and shoot, clean equipment, go to field and do live fire maneuvers, clean equipment, rinse, repeat.