Mental Combat Maneuvers

[Hugh Neilson]

On 9/5/2024 at 11:47 AM, Grailknight said:

You answered that yourself just a few posts ago.

 

 

I do agree with the reasoning from this post, just wondering why you'd turn around and ask the question a few posts later.

 

The first question was "why should the surprise rules work differently for two powers that are both IPE and LoS range?"  My answer is that the surprise rules should not work differently for two powers that are both IPE and LoS range.

 

The second was the question of whether mental powers should come with IPE and LoS baked in, at their current pricing structure. If the answer is no, then the solution is to either remove some of the default advantages or change the pricing to reflect their inclusion.  It is not to change the rules for surprise attacks.

 

As to the mental combat issues, well...

 

On 9/5/2024 at 1:34 PM, Gauntlet said:

I have found that if you pay attention to what your opponents are doing, or have an idea of some or all of their psychological complications, you can still hit them hard without needing the +to their EGO. Changing opponents can be a great one that many times you only need their EGO, or changing the attack type they are using (such as: you are worried about END so only use low END powers). Or make that incredibly powerful attack go on the defensive, or that character who has a lot of skill levels, make them go completely no the offensive and not use them to increase their DCV.

 

The lack of a psychological limitation does not mean the character "is inclined to perform" those actions anyway. They likely had a reason for the opponent selected, for the configuration of their skill levels or for the attack they selected.  I doubt many would be "violently opposed" to those actions, but I would place them somewhere between "wouldn't mind" and "is opposed".

 

On 9/5/2024 at 2:21 PM, Gauntlet said:

 With a little Telepathy, he/she can get a good idea who they are fighting and make him/her make better choices when making Mind Control attacks or even Mental Illusions.

 

Psychological complications are generally "deep, hidden thoughts" so Ego +10.  Still fairly attainable on 10d6, if the immediate breakout roll fails. However, that was your attack for the phase, and your target is aware of the use of mental powers.  Most PCs would make their teammates very aware of the presence of a mentalist if attacked in this manner, and if they felt weak to mentalists, you could expect an immediate pile-on.  Why would your opponents behave differently?

 

A single phase of Telepathy is also not going to provide every snippet of information buried in the mind of the opponent, so you'll need a pretty specific question, not "I want to find all his disadvantages".  Perhaps "attacks that are especially effective against him", "deep-seated fears/phobias" "who he loves" or "hatreds".

I would follow my own Rule Zero here - what works for you also works for your opponents. Enemy mentalists also don't get your full character sheet and back story from a single phase of Telepathy.

[Gauntlet]

49 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Psychological complications are generally "deep, hidden thoughts" so Ego +10.

 

Not necessarily, it depends on the complication and what it is. If the complication is something that is in the here and now, it would be right in the current throughs. And that's what the mentalist will be looking for as it is something he/she can utilize right away. And I do not think that getting everything from an opponent will be immediate but given a little time you can start getting things that are useful. And even if the attack required a +10 or even +20, it may not be that tough if they have a standard EGO, which depending on the campaign, many do. The big mistake I have found many mentalists to do is after hitting someone that has the high EGO and Mental Defense, they keep going after them, thinking that they will get lucky, while failing again and again and again. This of course is a complete waste of time and your resources. If you find that target to be hard to effect, either try something different or go for another target. In addition, players on a team need to work together, and a mentalist is definitely no exception.

 

As I said before, if playing a mentalist, the player, not just the character, needs to significantly think before they act. If that is something you either are bad at doing or don't like to do, then select a different type of character. Now I am not saying that someone who is playing, let's say a Brick, shouldn't think before they act, but for the mentalist it is even further in the spectrum of need.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Not necessarily, it depends on the complication and what it is. If the complication is something that is in the here and now, it would be right in the current throughs.

 

By RAW, psychological complications are normally "deep hidden thoughts".  A surface thought might be "I'll hold back a bit to avoid injuring him", "Keep that tarantula away from me" or "he doesn't look so tough".  A deeper dive could discern that this is due to a code vs killing, arachnophobia or overconfidence.

 

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

And I do not think that getting everything from an opponent will be immediate but given a little time you can start getting things that are useful. And even if the attack required a +10 or even +20, it may not be that tough if they have a standard EGO, which depending on the campaign, many do.

 

I don't know how long combat lasts in your games, but in mine spending 3 - 5 phases on Telepathy would be a significant portion of a combat.  12d6 (based on typical DCs) against a 13 EGO can get +20 on a slightly above average roll, but that 12- Breakout will succeed much more often than not, so you get nothing.

 

+10 is a lot easier, and that's "deep, hidden thoughts". The same roll imposes -2 to the breakout roll.  10- is still 50/50.

 

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

The big mistake I have found many mentalists to do is after hitting someone that has the high EGO and Mental Defense, they keep going after them, thinking that they will get lucky, while failing again and again and again. This of course is a complete waste of time and your resources. If you find that target to be hard to effect, either try something different or go for another target. In addition, players on a team need to work together, and a mentalist is definitely no exception.

 

No different from anyone else targeting the wrong opponent, even from a PD/ED perspective, although exotic defenses tend to be more "enough that he's practically immune" versus "not much defense if any".

[Gauntlet]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

By RAW, psychological complications are normally "deep hidden thoughts".  A surface thought might be "I'll hold back a bit to avoid injuring him", "Keep that tarantula away from me" or "he doesn't look so tough".  A deeper dive could discern that this is due to a code vs killing, arachnophobia or overconfidence.

 

 

I don't know how long combat lasts in your games, but in mine spending 3 - 5 phases on Telepathy would be a significant portion of a combat.  12d6 (based on typical DCs) against a 13 EGO can get +20 on a slightly above average roll, but that 12- Breakout will succeed much more often than not, so you get nothing.

 

+10 is a lot easier, and that's "deep, hidden thoughts". The same roll imposes -2 to the breakout roll.  10- is still 50/50.

 

 

No different from anyone else targeting the wrong opponent, even from a PD/ED perspective, although exotic defenses tend to be more "enough that he's practically immune" versus "not much defense if any".

 

So I guess we just play in different games, so this argument is a waste of time.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

So I guess we just play in different games, so this argument is a waste of time.

 

How long does combat last in your games?

 

The level of effect for Psych Complications is in the rules, as are breakout rolls, but game style can definitely result in marked differences in the length of combat.

[Gauntlet]

On 9/7/2024 at 2:21 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

How long does combat last in your games?

 

The level of effect for Psych Complications is in the rules, as are breakout rolls, but game style can definitely result in marked differences in the length of combat.

 

1 to 5 turns. Occasionally longer. Many times four or five heroes against 2 to 3 dozen agents and maybe a supervillain or two. Sometimes just supervillains.

[Steve]

Thinking about this a bit and getting away from the mind control and telepathy aspects, telekinesis would seem to work straight up with the various ranged martial arts maneuvers and would have some interesting synergies. I think a martial style based on telekinesis would have a cool vibe to it.

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

1 to 5 turns. Occasionally longer. Many times four or five heroes against 2 to 3 dozen agents and maybe a supervillain or two. Sometimes just supervillains.

 

Four to five Supers is consistent with what I see, but 1 -3 turns is more standard in our games.  That extra length would make a lot of difference enabling a mentalist to probe the more powerful targets telepathically for a few phases early on.  The added implication that the offense to defense ratio is likely lower makes determining things like vulnerabilities more valuable.  On the other hand, it would have to work on the villains.  Generic Agent 17 of 30 isn't really key to a battle.

[unclevlad]

18 hours ago, Steve said:

Thinking about this a bit and getting away from the mind control and telepathy aspects, telekinesis would seem to work straight up with the various ranged martial arts maneuvers and would have some interesting synergies. I think a martial style based on telekinesis would have a cool vibe to it.

 

Mostly it does, but there are some HTH maneuvers that have no ranged analog (per HSMA).  The 2 big ones are Grab Weapon and Grab Opponent, both of which are clearly in the TK wheelhouse.  They're bases for defining HTH maneuvers, but not for ranged maneuvers.  What I do is just use the costs for the Grab Opponent and Grab Weapon HTH maneuver elements.  And, note that using TK to Strike is VERY expensive;  TK is the only attack against standard defenses, with no damage-enhancing advantages, that is more than 5 points per DC.  The book gives the TK Blast as a "TK trick" largely for that reason, IMO.  And using it to grab tosses in the extra cost of the 10 point adder.  

 

I've built em, mind, because TK is perhaps my favorite power.  It gives a VERY clean, simple basis for most of the power set...attack, defense, movement.  Even a sense:  ranged touch.  It's versatile, in and out of combat.