Cantriped Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Since it has been a while since I have seen a thread dedicated to the topic of Magic System Design crop up, yet the subject continues to be broached frequently in other threads. So I think its time we got it all out of our system in a proper forum. When it comes to Magic System Design, there are few (if any) wrong answers. I am sure we all have strong opinions on the subject, but lets try to be civil. What kinds of Magic Systems have you used in past campaigns? How do you think a Magic System should work? What Game Elements do you think should be used to represent it? How do you think Magic should be presented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted March 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Over the years that I've been a Herophile, I have written a version of almost every magic system presented in Fantasy Hero. When I was young(er), I believed that a magic system should be exhaustively documented and detailed, in large part because I came from a D&D background. So my early designs tended to attempt to categorize everything. As I have matured I've come to hold the opposing opinion that doing so only limited my creativity as a GM (and that of my Players as well). Today, I believe that a "Magic System" should be as loosely defined as possible. Where it is defined, those definitions should serve to shape elements of the Campaign Setting. If I had to pick only one word to define how I prefer to present magic, it would be "Occult" or "Supernatural, mystical, or magical beliefs, practices, or phenomena.". Certainly it is the most generic description possible, but it has connotations people often eschew when designing magic systems. I also like the word "Arcane" or "Understood by few; mysterious or secret." Which probably better describes how I tend to present magic. I like for magic-users to understand their art, but refuse to pass that understanding on for various reasons; such as the selfish desire not have less competition, or the noble desire to see their legacy fall into worthy hands. Of the common types of "Magic System" there are three general systems which I hold a particular fondness for. The first is Alchemy (and its cousin Artifice). I've always liked the idea of magic-users who craft things, both as a justification for the existence of various magical items, and also because I enjoy the aesthetic of them. I like the image of the Alchemist as an eccentric who sometimes blows up their laboratory, but produces goods that make the lives of civilians and adventurers alike easier. I usually prefer to use some variant on the Alternate Item Creation Rules (from Fantasy Hero) for such magic users. However on occasion I've also used the Standard "Delayed Effect & Usable By Others" model when that was more appropriate to the campaign or campaign setting. A distant relation to Alchemy (and Artifice) which I also like is Rune-Magic. Although I typically find that it is simply too much of a bother to represent it with game mechanics. It works well as a more combat viable form of Artifice however. The second is Invocation (and its cousin Conjuration). In my mind an Invoker is magic user who "invokes" the powers of phenomenon or entities more powerful than themselves to produce magical effects. What I most enjoy about invokers is their cinematic quality, and the opportunity such magic user's have to add depth and mystery to a campaign setting. Invocation is most commonly seen as the so-called "Divine Magic" of the cleric, however there are many settings where invocation does not require or indicate worship and devotion of the entity or phenomenon being invoked. In terms of Game Mechanics, usually a simple Multipower with Incantations on All Slots will suffice for most of your spells. Although since it is generally a bad idea to have your primary Defense and Movement spells in a Multipower, I rarely required that all spells be bought through a single framework. Most of what makes Invocation (and Conjuration) interesting to me is the flavor and depth you can give it without resorting to complicated game mechanics. The third is Necromancy. First off, I love the aesthetic of the Necromancer commanding an Army of the Dead. It just appeals strongly to my preference for Dark Fantasy. As a GM I think Undead make the perfect "Monster" for numerous reasons. Rarely do players have to debate whether it is okay to kill/destroy them, or question where they come from, or how they replenish so quickly. They mesh well with common encounter/adventure design principles in that you have a Master Necromancer as the final boss, their Apprentices and/or special undead as sub-bosses, and countless Skeletons and Zombies as mooks/trash mobs to fill out encounters with. There are also so many types and origins for the undead; so even in a campaign where the undead are the primary threat, players don't have to get bored fighting the same stat-block over and over again. Yet at the same time they provide the opportunity to terrify the players both tactically and narratively. For example, how to you protect a town from plague zombies that raise their victims as more plague zombies, or how to you put the spirit of a great warrior to rest while battling its ghost in narrow corridors which it can pass right through. Then there is the necromancer themselves, you can justify a huge number of different Powers with necromancy. Summon is simply the most obvious example, you can create armor, walls, or projectiles by manipulating bone, you can divine "lost" knowledge through traditional necromancy, you can afflict enemies with plagues or justify spells which target unusual defenses. The options are almost limitless, and that appeals to the evil power-gamer in me, yet still thematic, which appeals to my inner roleplayer. Mechanically, I tend to follow the same pattern as Invocation (see above) regarding how I design a magic-user, except that Necromancy tends to be much more ritualistic, and therefore tends to have lots of Limitations, such as Extra Time, Expendable Foci, Gestures, Incantations, etc... iamlibertarian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I once ran a (short) game based on Robert Asprin's Myth Adventures series, and designed the magic system to go with it. For anyone who hasn't read the series, the short version is: interdimensional fantasy with a strong Damon Runyon flavor. The energy for magic (spelled "magik" in the books, but I'll use the regular spelling here mainly so I don't have to keep correcting myself) is drawn from what are, essentially, ley lines (referred to in the books as "lines of magikal force"). Magicians can draw power from them and hold it in an internal reserve for when they need it; it may be that they can also hook spells into them directly. The closer a magician is to a line, the more power can be drawn, and the easier it is to draw power. A magician can learn to see magic, including force lines, but also continuing spells that have been previously cast. Areas where two or more lines cross are especially sought after by magicians, as more power can be drawn from them. The magic system was easy enough; spells draw from an END Reserve, and Require A Magic Skill Roll; the END Reserve's REC is also based on the Magic Roll, and the amount a magician can recover is based on their proximity and how well they roll. Spells are otherwise built as Powers, with no Frameworks allowed. Dimensions have somewhat punny names; the main character, Skeeve, hails from the dimension of Klah, and people from there are known as Klahds. His mentor, Aahz, is a scaly green demonic figure from a dimension called Perv. Inhabitants of this dimension are known as Perverts to everyone but themselves ("That's Pervect!") Deva is known for its Great Bazaar, and its inhabitants are Deveels (who look like the classical description of devils). A nearby dimension to them, Imper, is the home of Imps, who strongly resemble Deveels and may be related to them. And so on. A few years back, I realized that there's a philosophical question about whether this series is in fact fantasy. It's told from the standpoint of a human from a low tech, medievalish world, but there are plenty of high tech dimensions, and some people who earn a living as magicians in fact aren't casters at all but effectively magical gadgeteers. Rings, amulets, staves, and wands are common, but it's impossible at a glance to tell whether they're magic or technological in nature. For those who don't know the dimension travel spell, the best way to travel dimensions is via D-hopper, an item combining technology and magic. I also want to analyze the Ethshar novels by Lawrence Watt-Evans. Mr. Watt-Evans based his world on his old D&D campaign from the mid 1970's, not in a bad way. The world of Ethshar has a large number of largely incompatible magic systems (known as "Schools"). I won't go into great detail about all of them, but I'll touch on some of them pretty heavily. Wizardry is probably the major school of magic in Ethshar. Wizardry is effectively the magic-user's spell system, minus the worst of the Vancian bits. Wizardry spells have different "Orders" which correspond somewhat to a spell's level in D&D. Wizardry spells often require gestures, incantations, and material components, and are written down in spellbooks. Almost all wizardry spells require the caster's athame, which is a ritual dagger created by the wizard via a first order spell that imbues some of the wizard's power into the blade. The very few spells that don't require the athame are often used to gauge a potential wizard's talent for wizardry; the spell used to create the athame also does not require one. Wizardry draws its power from the chaos underlying the universe and, as a result, provides a nearly limitless well of power for the caster to draw on. Wizardry spells would be a good candidate for the Side Effects Limitation in Fantasy Hero; an incorrectly cast spell can often have effects ranging from annoying to devastating, and sometimes entirely new spells are created as a result. The Ethsharitic Wizards' Guild is the most powerful organization of mages, and it claims the power to regulate all magic and all casters. Theurgy and Demonology are two very closely related disciplines; they both use magic to contact and call on otherworldly beings (gods and demons, respectively). If the spell is performed correctly, the god has to appear; whether the god can or will help is sometimes another matter, but usually they will do what they can. If the spell is incorrectly cast, the god may not show up, or a different god might show up, or a demon might "listen in" on the summoning and show up instead. Sorcery is the practice of creating and using talismans. Unlike many of the other schools of magic, there is no psychic component to sorcery; all sorcery is external to the caster. Talismans are often created out of specific arrangements of metals and crystals; many talismans have been lost or destroyed over the years or no longer function. Very few new sorcerous talismans are being created. Sorcery is based on the power of gaja, derived from the fundamental order of the universe. It could be considered the "opposite" of wizardry in some ways; in fact, the thousand year Great War was fought between the north, who primarily used sorcery, and the south, where wizardry was the major form of power. (The south won, and the south's military wizards eventually banded together to form the Wizards' Guild.) Northern sorcerers also used half-demons known as shatra as fighters. Sorcery is essentially high tech gadgetry; the secrets of creation of sorcerous talismans have essentially been lost. Shatra were cyborgs. Witchcraft is basically mental powers. Their primary powers are telekinesis, telepathy (including manipulating the thoughts of others), precognition, and healing (via telekinetic manipulation and energy transfer). They can also perform telekinetic tricks like flying, gliding, starting fires, and so on. Witchcraft draws on the user's own bodily energies, and it takes as much energy to achieve a result via witchcraft as it would to perform the task by hand. During the war, witches would sometimes link together in order to share energy, skill, and power; these links were known as "war locks" (which practice gave the school of warlockry its name; see below). Warlockry was the newest, and shortest lived, school of magic. Warlockry first appeared on the Night of Madness, when a creature from elsewhere fell to earth somewhere in the north. Frightened and injured, it called out to its fellows for rescue, then went into a form of stasis. On that night, many people around the world were "called" to the creature, flying directly there via telekinesis. Many others were not called, but discovered their own talents. Warlockry is essentially very high powered telekinesis; its power is drawn from the northern source. Warlocks who use their power will eventually grow to feel the mental call, and a warlock who uses too much power eventually can no longer prevent themselves from flying north. Warlocks are capable of great power but also great control; warlockry is capable of moving heat energy around, and some warlocks hire themselves out to fishing vessels and other types of cargo ships, to keep cargo cold. They can telekinetically manipulate objects at the molecular level, even in some cases being able to reweave fabric while they are wearing it. A warlock can even initiate another into warlockry, by telekinetically manipulating the new warlock's brain to form the organ that responds to warlockry's power source. Warlockry seems to be closely related to witchcraft; witches are known to be able to draw power from warlocks, boosting their own abilities, and in some cases can even feel a bare whisper of the call. Doing so can make the warlock themselves more vulnerable to being called. The source of warlockry is an alien creature or vessel; the amount of power it puts out triggers the development of warlocks all around the world, and the creature's call for rescue is the same call that eventually draws to it. Those drawn to it are pulled into its stasis field and do not age, nor are they conscious, for the duration. Eventually the creature is rescued, at which time warlockry itself ends, though there are a very few warlocks who find that they can draw from other sources elsewhere in the world. There are at least a dozen other schools of magic in Ethshar, some of which (in particular prestidigitation and prognostication) are known as "charlatanry". Another, minor, school of magic is known as science, and is made up of individuals who study the physical reality of the world. When I design magic systems, it's usually because I want to recreate a system or effect from another source. I've got dozens of half-finished systems floating around on my hard drive and in Google Docs; I'm a lot better at starting than finishing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I oyed around with a system for a while using END, STN, and BOD for different kinds of magic, there's still a piece of it in my fantasy campaign magic system where you use Body to power necromantic magic and it ages you (kind of like the Sindbad film where the magician ages visibly using spells and is searching for something to bring him youth). Necromancers can drain power and youth from others (aging them) and create storage of Body by sacrificing people and keeping their souls to draw from. But the END/STN breakdown was more like Dresden's magic where there's quick combat magic and long, difficult ritual magic. Combat magic uses END, more long term but powerful magic uses STN. I never fully built that out but it was an intriguing concept, with some very powerful spells so difficult and taxing that they literally could make you pass out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Since it has been a while since I have seen a thread dedicated to the topic of Magic System Design crop up, yet the subject continues to be broached frequently in other threads. So I think its time we got it all out of our system in a proper forum. When it comes to Magic System Design, there are few (if any) wrong answers. I am sure we all have strong opinions on the subject, but lets try to be civil. What kinds of Magic Systems have you used in past campaigns? How do you think a Magic System should work? What Game Elements do you think should be used to represent it? How do you think Magic should be presented? I think that this area of group effort(more on this later) has the small but stll real chance of being a tipping point if investors ever decided to try and market HERO as a viable alternative to D&D. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I've got the glimmer of an idea for a magic system for an urban fantasy campaign. Magic has three important parts: the symbolic description, the "real world" description, and the connection. The symbolic part is what most people think of as a spell -- it's the incantations/gestures/material components, the references to the laws of magic, the invocation of whatever gods or powers are necessary. The real world description is what you expect to have happen. How much matter or energy you want moved from point A to point B, or whose thoughts you want altered and how, or what probabilities you want changed and in what direction. The connection is the interface between them, which is where the spell effect actually comes from. If any one of the parts is missing, then: the symbolic part is interpretive dance, philosophical wanderings, performance art, and nothing more. The real world description is a solution to a physics problem that hasn't been written or a computer program. There's no magic. The ability to connect with magic is what turns a caster from an artist or a physicist into a spellcaster. It's the connection between will and power. You don't have to be a physics professor to describe the real world part; the spell works with what you give it. You do have to be able to work with the limitations of the universe, though, if only to know where you need to make the exceptions. And you don't have to be a great artistic talent to create the symbol work, but you do need to put forth the effort, and put on the trappings of magic. Magic doesn't know of the existence of any particular god or God or gods. Magic can't detect the soul nor tell if or where it goes after death. Magic can't detect the way to any particular afterlife. It's impossible to say whether invocations to deities in spells work because of the entity or because of the symbolism. This is not to say that God or any god or gods exist or don't exist, but mages don't have any more insight than non-mages. (Sometimes it happens that a mage tries to cast a spell to convince a god to manifest. Usually this results in the mage going into a trance in which they claim to have contact with the god in question. Mages that are more persistent in this eventually come to find themselves dead, via near-death experiences that get a little too near...) Game mechanics: All spells must take a minimum of X worth of Limitations from the following list: Requires A Magic Skill Roll, Gestures, Incantations, Focus, Concentration, Extra Time, Side Effects, etc. Basically, it has to be a spell and not a super power. Spells are bought as Powers at their regular point cost. Characters can't start with Frameworks, but may be able to buy them as the game progresses. Creating magic items requires knowing the spell whose effect you want the item to create, then knowing or finding a spell to bind it into the object. Characters can take Knowledge and Science Skills that can act as Complementary Skills to their Magic Skill. Side Effects: Side Effects Limitations are not mandatory on spells. Usually, if a spell fails it just fails to work; resources are consumed, but that's it. However, this depends on whether you're asking the universe to bend the rules, or break them. Creation or destruction of matter or energy is breaking the rules; the universe will do this, if asked nicely, but doesn't like to, and failure here is where the Side Effects come in. The universe is a lot happier when the books balance at the end. It's easier to transform matter or energy than it is to create it from nothing. END Cost: Spells have to have some form of energy input. This is usually done through END, though a spell can take external energy. Fire, sunlight, falling water, burning candles, occasionally calling down lightning; these are typically used, though in more recent years, mages have taken to pulling in energy from mains power. Spells either have to cost Endurance, require an Expendable Focus, be built on (possibly recoverable) Charges, take a Limitation to the effect that a connection to a form of energy is required, or take the Side Effects Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 I can't help designing magic systems with a scientific basis. I feel that if a wizard knows the Secrets of the Universe, then he has to know some of the Secrets of the World as well. Like, an extremely skilled and powerful fire wizard might know all about connections to the Elemental Plane of Fire, but I don't think he can in the process avoid learning about combustion, the fuel-heat-oxygen-chain reaction tetrahedron, and so on. Likewise, air wizards that specialize in weather and lightning should know that lightning is drawn to ground, and eventually learn that lightning has a magnetic component and maybe a little something about radio waves. Likewise a guild of wizards who use healing and disease curing spells will eventually figure out the mechanisms behind infection in wounds and how to prevent it. If a wizard turns a person to stone, or into a mouse, while I may not explicitly mention it, I have a mental assumption that the extra mass goes to or from somewhere. A curse that gets passed down through families from parents to children gets written into the family's DNA. If your game world explicitly doesn't work according to basic physical principles that more or less resemble those of the real world, then by the time you've finished explaining that to me I've completely lost all interest in it. (Maybe you -- the general you -- have lost interest in mine by now. That's fine; different strokes and all.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 Magic systems are Really subjective, and as such I have tended to run Superhero campaigns, SF, and Fantasy with low magic content (mostly politics or war). Pick the wrong style of magic system and you have players walk out. The Semi-Byzantine campaign, Magic is mostly of the alchemical variety (Chemistry) and "Hedge Science"., i.e. learned from empirical evidence, and sometime a very weak, and subtle form of psychics. Most spells are potion lists, of what is available and their point and cash cost. Also weapons with various properties ( good tempered steel is really expensive but often gets the AP or Resistant bonus, compared to iron or other metals). The anti-swashbuckling campaign (Grit & Stuff) was a Northern European inspired slog with commercial, and Imperial interests all grabbing for a new continent, and had a lot of firearms and the "Magic, similar in framework to the Quasi-Byzantine campaign, but with some "Powers", gunpowder, and fast healing. Mages were generally Renaissance men (and women) who were also the party's logistical point and healer, and Veterinary, and were to be protected by the rest of the party of "explorers". My Old Old campaign from the 90's, has fairly unrestricted magic, and was basic "Out of the Book" Spells and a flavor inspired by L. Douglas Garrett's Fantasy Hero campaigns where I had been a member of the original Fantasy Hero Playtest group, and that campaign went on another several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 I always liked GURPS magic so I once did a magic power pool based magic system where each "spell" was a skill and you needed the more basic ones to buy the more "advanced" ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 I have long liked the "tree" version of magic that, say, Might & Magic uses. YOu start out with novice fire blast, which at the next level of learning becomes Fire ball, or spits two fire blasts, then the next one gets better, etc, until at maximum mastery you can do an indirect AP fire blast that hits multiple targets, and so on. Starting out with rudimentary abilities that grow appeals to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 I have long liked the "tree" version of magic that, say, Might & Magic uses. YOu start out with novice fire blast, which at the next level of learning becomes Fire ball, or spits two fire blasts, then the next one gets better, etc, until at maximum mastery you can do an indirect AP fire blast that hits multiple targets, and so on. Starting out with rudimentary abilities that grow appeals to me. I liked the stacked Limitation values from FH for 4th edition: Requires X Points In College. If I'm the GM, and want to give a Limitation value for it, I can and will. I thought a little more could have been done with it... the most basic spells in a college should have had no requirements, the slightly more advanced ones the 10 point requirement, and so on. I also would let points taken in Background Skills (KS, SS, etc.) associated with the college count toward the point requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 The only problem with that power level limitation was that it wasn't really limiting to the power; once you had it, there was no limitation. It was limiting to the player, not the character. But I do like the principle in mind, and that's why I keep wanting to figure out a way to buy a skill tree/martial arts-type power framework that would handle this kind of structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 I would treat it as a Limitation to the effect that you can't use the spell unless you've bought X points worth. You can buy it all you want, but you can't use it until then. There's probably a new kind of Framework that could be designed to handle it. This needs more thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguy Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 In my fantasy campaign, Nyonia, I came up with a magic system that was based on the idea that the kind of magic you could practice was based on where you came from. And once you learned one kind of magic it was virtually impossible to learn another kind of magic. Mages who did learn two or more kinds of magic and then tried to combine them caused cataclysmic events to occur, often impacting the entire planet. Here is a link to that gives a brief description and it has a link to each of the races/cultures types of magic. Also there are people with a natural talent for magic. These mages are able to command much more powerful spells (i.e. higher active points and few limitations) than people who just learn how to cast a few spells. Here is a link to the game mechanic description of magic. Part of the magical game mechanic involves maximum active points for kinds of spells (offensive, personal/group defensive, movement, sensory, etc.) This was my attempt to limit the idea of the 'generic mage' where everyone has a fireball, magic missile, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 In my fantasy campaign, Nyonia, I came up with a magic system that was based on the idea that the kind of magic you could practice was based on where you came from. And once you learned one kind of magic it was virtually impossible to learn another kind of magic. Mages who did learn two or more kinds of magic and then tried to combine them caused cataclysmic events to occur, often impacting the entire planet. This brings up an interesting topic that I've actually been thinking on, specifically single worlds with multiple, perhaps incompatible, magic systems. Are they based around different sources? Different sources with similar mechanics: D&D/Pathfinder, with arcane vs. divine Different sources that don't interact at all: Ethshar's Wizardry (primal chaos/D&D type arcane) vs. Warlockry (heavily empowered telekinesis). Different sources that inherently interact destructively or cataclysmically: bluesguy's Nyonia; Amber's Pattern vs. Chaos Same source (or type of source) and mechanics with different "filters" or "lenses" or specialties of power: Magic the Gathering's colors of mana; The Force (light side vs. dark side); "schools" of magic Same source (or type) with different mechanics: spellcasters vs. item enchanters; they all draw from "thaumaturgical force" but thaumaturges cast directly, while enchanters imbue magic into items Can a single caster learn more than one type of magic? Yes (D&D style multiclassing, or buying more than one type of Magic Skill and spells in Fantasy Hero) Yes (no inherent issues or prohibitions) No; prohibited by the basic rules of magic (perhaps initiation into one type of magic permanently "shuts off" a caster's awareness of or interaction with other types) No; prohibited by the gods No; prohibited by government, guild, or other authority (Ethshar's Wizards' Guild prohibition) No; types are inherently opposite to one another (the Force light side vs. dark side) No; types interact destructively (Nyonia) Can cast spells or magical effects interact with one another? Can a magical dispel affect a psionic effect? Can one school of magic affect another (e.g. can fire wizards' Firey Dispel shut down a laser cleric's Aura of Light)? Fantasy Hero/HERO System specific: Is there a single type of Magic Skill that lets the caster learn multiple schools or types? Does each (perhaps incompatible) magic system have its own Magic Skill or other requirements (Talents? Frameworks?) Is there a unified special effect of Magic, or do the various types have their own separate special effects? Something I haven't thought of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 27, 2017 Report Share Posted March 27, 2017 Something I haven't thought of? Spells based off different characteristics? This is something that Pathfinder does, with different types of magic using different characteristics for each subclass of spell caster. You could also in Hero be spcific on the skill rolls by school or type of magic, and also bring in magic based on INT, EGO, PRE, ect, like the pathfinder example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 This brings up an interesting topic that I've actually been thinking on, specifically single worlds with multiple, perhaps incompatible, magic systems. Are they based around different sources? Different sources with similar mechanics: D&D/Pathfinder, with arcane vs. divine Different sources that don't interact at all: Ethshar's Wizardry (primal chaos/D&D type arcane) vs. Warlockry (heavily empowered telekinesis). Different sources that inherently interact destructively or cataclysmically: bluesguy's Nyonia; Amber's Pattern vs. Chaos Same source (or type of source) and mechanics with different "filters" or "lenses" or specialties of power: Magic the Gathering's colors of mana; The Force (light side vs. dark side); "schools" of magic Same source (or type) with different mechanics: spellcasters vs. item enchanters; they all draw from "thaumaturgical force" but thaumaturges cast directly, while enchanters imbue magic into items Can a single caster learn more than one type of magic? Yes (D&D style multiclassing, or buying more than one type of Magic Skill and spells in Fantasy Hero) Yes (no inherent issues or prohibitions) No; prohibited by the basic rules of magic (perhaps initiation into one type of magic permanently "shuts off" a caster's awareness of or interaction with other types) No; prohibited by the gods No; prohibited by government, guild, or other authority (Ethshar's Wizards' Guild prohibition) No; types are inherently opposite to one another (the Force light side vs. dark side) No; types interact destructively (Nyonia) Can cast spells or magical effects interact with one another? Can a magical dispel affect a psionic effect? Can one school of magic affect another (e.g. can fire wizards' Firey Dispel shut down a laser cleric's Aura of Light)? Fantasy Hero/HERO System specific: Is there a single type of Magic Skill that lets the caster learn multiple schools or types? Does each (perhaps incompatible) magic system have its own Magic Skill or other requirements (Talents? Frameworks?) Is there a unified special effect of Magic, or do the various types have their own separate special effects? Something I haven't thought of? So I'm (slowly) working on some stuff for the Fantasy Hero for Newbies thread. Including a rough magic system. I really like the way you've tried to break down magic systems here. Gives me some good points to think from/about. I hope you'll excuse me if I do it here. :-) I'm going for a simple system (as part of the (implied) brief for FH for Newbies). Source: one, the Laws of Magic. If you know the Laws you can manipulate them. (Just like lawyers!) Can you learn more than 1 style? Yes. I've got different magical traditions that emphasise different aspects of the Laws. But there is no metaphysical impediment stopping someone learning multiple traditions. Given the simple and generic nature of the work I'm not considering whether or not there might be in game restrictions imposed by guilds or hostile traditions. But there certainly could be. Can different schools interact: Yes. Very much yes. The Laws of Magic by implication interact with one another regardless of what emphasis a given practitioner may put up them. Thus it's not too hard for a wizard to find points of similarity that can be played. FH specific: There are variable magic skills, representing the different traditions. More to give a sense of definition, and support the flavour of the various magical traditions CHAR based casting. I'm basing the various magic skills on EGO. All from the same CHAR as basically the traditions aren't that different. But I'm starting to think that perhaps I should base them off INT due to the way I'm describing the Laws. No frameworks. Once again: keeping it as simple as possible. This has the downside that starting wizards are strapped for points. There is a unified special effect: the Laws of Magic or Magic for simplicity. But there are also other SFX that overlap with magic. Eg: fire. A magic fire can thus be dealt with either as Fire or as Magic. Thanks for that. It was very helpful. Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 The nature of magic in a game is going to be dependent on the nature of the setting. Magic in standard D&D is different from magic in Warhammer. And that's different from magic in the Marvel Universe, and that's different from magic in World of Darkness. And its all different than the (quite rare) supernatural aspects that exist in Battletech (where no one believes in magic except for the kind of people who believe magic exists in the real world).. So it really just boils down to what you want. Nobody is right or wrong in their preferences here, it's just what you enjoy and want to play. I'm going to want magic to be different in a Call of Cthulhu game than I do in a superhero game. Even in a fantasy setting, it kind of depends on the type of world you want. In D&D, wizards are fairly weak characters for most of their careers, until they hit the point where they've got enough magic spells to last them through the day. Those spells gradually increase in power as the spellcaster gets tougher, and once a mage hits a certain point, his power level skyrockets. In Lord of the Rings, it's not so clear. Gandalf and his wizardy friends are very old and very knowledgeable, but we generally don't see them chucking fireballs at people. How to simulate the "hidden power" that many of them seem to possess is anyone's guess. I like the idea of having different types of magic in the same setting. It probably comes from my desire to mash lots of games together and do big crossover adventures (I want my next character to be Optimus Prime, Sorcerer Supreme). So for a generic fantasy setting, I'd suggest maybe the following types should be available: --D&D point and click magic spells. Fireball, charm person, etc. These are relatively limited effects, usually limited to a person's immediate vicinity. They have fairly predictable results but they're generally limited in scope. These spells could potentially be usable by anybody. A warrior might learn a magic chant that causes his sword to burst into flame. Or a thief could learn a spell that turns him invisible for a short time. In terms of a greater understanding of magic, these don't do much for you. You've simply learned that the right words and the proper mental focus produces the right effects. But you don't necessarily know why. Just as long as you say Klaatu Barada Nikto before you pick up the book, everything should be okay. --Cthulhu style magic. This gives a much deeper understanding than just memorizing the words and repeating them. Of course, understanding the magic is a one-way ticket to crazy town. This magic has much broader applications than D&D magic does. Part of it involves understanding rules of physics and mathematics that don't exist in our reality. Things are bleeding over from a place where everything works differently. Another part of it involves entreaties to powerful beings who may grant you what you desire, but also may not. Cthulhu spells are potentially a great deal more powerful, but it's basically impossible for a human (or an elf, or whatever) to fully grasp what is happening, so there's an element of extreme risk. In Hero terms, very high active points, with many limitations, including side effects. Once you begin casting, something is going to happen, it just may not be what you wanted. These spells don't even have to be learned (or bought with points), they are pretty simple follow the instructions paint-by-number sort of thing. Just read the book out loud. Studying the books can lead you to greater understanding of the universe, but not a universe that you want to be in. --Ritual magic is more powerful than standard D&D stuff, and more controllable than Cthulhian sorcery. But it requires a lot of knowledge, a lot of time, and a lot of resources. Rituals usually involve asking the favor of some sort of god, but not always. If so, then if you have pleased the god, then the thing you ask for happens. If not, it is usually ignored (unless you piss him off). But other types of rituals require a deeper understanding of the universe and the rules of magic. While a fighter might say a blessing taught to him by a priest before he goes into combat (+1/1 Armor, lasts an hour), rituals require you to actually have some idea what you're doing. Philosophy of magic, knowledge of religions, places of mystic power, astrology, those sorts of things are important. Much wider and more varied effects are possible with the right rituals. You can change weather patterns, awaken an army of the dead, that sort of thing. You can't change them on the fly, you have to know what you're trying to do when you start the ritual. But theoretically you can cast a ritual to do almost anything. --Retributive magic is powered by your life force. The concepts of yin and yang, of balance are particularly important here. These spells are more free-form, and some of them may not require any sort of specialized knowledge at all. Dying curses are a prime example. Some of this can be used completely untrained, but it often exacts a cost. The zero level commoner who sees her son murdered in cold blood by the haughty spoiled prince can lay a curse upon him. If his act was completely unjustified, the fates may be out of balance enough that the curse is considered to have "set things right again". If there was some degree of justification, the mother may have to make up the difference with a negative effect to herself. The prince might be turned into an ugly monster, but the mother is doomed to walk the Earth as a hideous crone until the prince is killed. Her son, meanwhile, will not be able to enter the afterlife while this curse persists. Retributive magic is entirely up to the GM to adjudicate. --Purely divine magic is granted by the gods. Like D&D style arcane magic, divine magic doesn't require that you understand anything about how things are happening. You are acting as a conduit for the power of your deity. It works because your god has shown you favor, and he wants it to work. This doesn't necessarily mean that your god is always paying attention to what you're doing, a god may "pre-load" his priests with power and not pay attention to how they use it. Magical theory, science, these things mean very little to the priest. It just works because their god says it does. --Natural magic is just sort of how the world works. There are dryads and naiads. Nature spirits, ancestor spirits, places that are strong in the Force. This is an understanding of the living energy of the Earth, and the creatures that inhabit it. In D&D terms, this would include most animals and mystic critters that had innate magical powers. A sword that was used by a great hero to slay a beast may, over time, absorb enough natural forces that it becomes magical. Leave it sitting in a holy shrine for 200 years, and when the hero's descendant goes to pick it up, he finds it's a +4 longsword of dragon slaying (or whatever). Natural magic isn't always good. Corruption can take hold in the world, and this may result in places that animate every corpse left there. Take the crown of a betrayed and murdered king that was left in a rotten tomb for 500 years, a place saturated by dark energies. You probably don't want to put that thing on, not unless you want to experience a very fast alignment shift. This stuff would be very GM dependent, but theoretically a character could learn a lot about how things worked. A lot of it is going to be instinct driven, there are no formulas here. Those are just some ideas that I had. You could of course come up with more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 I can't quote you Chris Goodwin but I have to laugh about your magic and science. The reason is that many of science facts are really more theory and if you look at some of those facts, they change as we know more. For example a fire teteahedron is relatively new, it use to be a fire triangle. Btw have they ever figure out how light works? Or is it still the wave-particle theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knasser2 Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 Btw have they ever figure out how light works? Or is it still the wave-particle theory? Are Shakespeare's plays poetry or prose? It can be two things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesedrith Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 The system I use tends to be a simple one that revolves around the idea that magic is an exertion of will on the universe. Magic works because you have the will and/or talent to make it so. Along that line, I also usually require the Talent (5e) of Mage Sight. To be able to do magic, you must first be able it's presence. Either as a force to be tapped (see C.S. Friedmans' Cold Fire series for an excellent example) or as "cracks" in reality into which you can insert your will to make things happen. The consequences of this are first, that you cannot develop the ability to use magic later in the game if you do not lay down at least 5pts to get that basic level of Mage Sight. (Or a wizard friend of yours could do his study to grant you that boon, but I've never had anyone delve into the matter that way, and wasn't, and am still not, inclined to suggest it.) Second, each wizard generally has his own style and version of spells. There are schools and teachers, but no two wizards are going to cast the same spell the same way. Due to that teaching influence it's often similar to your teacher, but not the same. Third, there are some who become powerful and wise enough that they understand that ultimate nature of magic - that it's an exercise of will - and they can indeed do away with all the finger wriggling, chanting, and mumbo jumbo. They can will it, and it is simply so. And yes, I've had players set their characters onto that path, but I let them know up front that a definite prime requisite is a magic skill of at least -21, INT of 20, and EGO of 20. I've never had a campaign last long enough for anyone to reach those basic requirements, much less any of the rest (Mage Sight at the level of a sense, ranged, discriminatory, etc., as well as other requirements). I also impose that your style or method of exerting will must be rather self consistent. If you must carve runes in a staff, then you must carve those runes to enact your magic. If you need a wand, you must have a wand. If you must be able to speak and verbalize your desire....well, you get the idea. I also tend to allow VPPs, though I discourage new players from using them. Unless it's a very experienced player, there's none of this "on the cuff" changing of the powers in the VPP either. You're not bogging play down for the next 30-minutes while you try and figure out how to put together a new power for a spell. As to how it works? I've not had any complaints, either from myself or the players, so I'd say pretty well. Most of my spell casters tend to wind up being priests or religious devotees though, or a more warrior type who's managed to learn how to summon a sword so that he's never unarmed or something similar. I also do tend to add more "rules" to magic than this basic framework, depending on the world and the flavor of magic I want to the magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesedrith Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 Btw have they ever figure out how light works? Or is it still the wave-particle theory? Yep. We understand how and why electromagnetic radiation works pretty well now. As to wave-particle duality, that's just inherent to nature. Electrons can be made to interfere with each other and act like waves, as can protons or neutrons. I think this may be a discussion for a different board though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 I can't quote you Chris Goodwin but I have to laugh about your magic and science. The reason is that many of science facts are really more theory and if you look at some of those facts, they change as we know more. For example a fire teteahedron is relatively new, it use to be a fire triangle. Btw have they ever figure out how light works? Or is it still the wave-particle theory? Where science and scientists are concerned, "theory" isn't just thing we think we know about but aren't sure and throw up our hands at when someone asks. Theory is a well known structure of knowledge based around the topic. It's not a question to which the answer is ever, "I don't know." And yes, science facts do change when more is known. This is a feature of science, not a bug. A theory isn't often a hundred percent certainty, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcamtar Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 I really like GURPS magic; it feels both realistic and "tight" (for lack of a better description), yet has enough complexity to be interesting. But mostly I think I just like the powerstones and staves. And variable mana levels. And the healing/necromancy angle. And - oh yes - accidental demon summoning. It's one thing to say wizards use a lot of jewels, its another thing to define exactly how and why they do so, and to do it in a way that is not limiting. I've often toyed with the idea of a purely technology-based magic system. Essentially taking the idea of AD&D material components, GURPS wizardly tools like powerstones and staves, and magic items, all unified by an underlying metasystem like medieval alchemy. All magic is derived from physical objects and props: tools, components, jewels, staves, scrolls, potions. Incantations and concentration and personal END are useless and irrelevant. All magic is external. Stripping a wizard naked is a guaranteed way to take away his power. In such a system, magic would be just like technology; you buy it at the market, kings have research departments and defense contractors, wizards become engineers and technicians. It might lend a "Recluce" feel to the world. I tend to prefer multiple magic systems in a world, sort of like how D&D has magic spells and clerical spells, but expanded to dozens of competing systems. Ideally they all access the same underlying metaphysical rules, only nobody knows what those rules, only a particular tradition that can access those rules in a particular and limited way. I have done the multiple systems idea several times, but rarely gotten far with the unified metaphysics or really even tried; but I like the idea. In terms of flavor I really gravitate toward a dark medieval flavor, with demons and alchemists and curses and ancient forbidden tomes, but also paladins and holy hermits and stuff. High fantasy with (potentially) super powerful wizards, but a world that fears and avoids magic rather than benefitting from it. Worlds steeped in magic, or that get too gonzo with the planes and stuff, I think lose their flavor. A nice way to make magic powerful yet rare is to make it horribly dangerous. I have a soft spot for warhammer for this reason, with its necromantic decrepitude, sorcerous insanity... and then there is GURPS with its accidential demons and "Umana" accidents. I did a magic system once (not for Hero) that was authority-based. The Creator made a bunch of gods and demons and elementals and delegated his authority to them, and they in turn can delegate to wizards or priests. Authority means you simply will it, and it becomes so. It is not about effort or technique, but having the "right" to command and order things. Knowledge comes into play because you can only command what you know of and understand. But mortal authority usually comes with strings attached, thus magical traditions and limitations; multiple levels of delegation are all cumulative with respect to limitation. All creatures are born with authority to command their own body; everything else must be acquired through relationship with other entities. It was an interesting idea to toy with, especially for creating hierarchies of planar entities, but hard to define mechanically. I like alignments, not necessarily AD&D alignments, but I think it adds a mystical air to magic. I think elemental or political ("politics of hell") alignments could be interesting. You see Elric dealing with this sort of thing. Here's a favorite system, many here are probably familiar with in some form: Clerical Petition Pool: This idea is from an old Adventurer's Club. A deity is a Contact, accessed through a Faith skill roll. The cleric has a no conscious control VPP that represents how "important" he is to the deity's plans. Instead of casting spells, the cleric prays; the GM secretly makes a faith roll, and if it succeeds: interprets the prayer, designs a power, and triggers the VPP. Powers are invisible, indirect, and use no END; The GM is encouraged to use the minimal effect necessary to accomplish the request, and to do so in a way that is easily explainable by a skeptic. So, nobody is ever quite sure if the deity intervened or not. Except of course the cleric, who is always convinced of it. (This system of course requires a great deal of trust between player and GM! I have tried it and it can be hard to think of something on the spur of the moment. I found myself using a lot of raw superhero-like powers, because it takes too much time to fully flesh things out with limitations. It is also important to have a clear idea of what the deity wants, so you know when to say yes or no, and how to interpret things.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted April 6, 2017 Report Share Posted April 6, 2017 Being the lazy-ass bastard that I am, and using the incredibly flexible game system that HERO is, I let my players design their own magic system. With only those restrictions necessary to fit into the game world and the adventure concepts (long-distance movement powers, for example, would tend to ruin a game where the journey is the challenge). The game world's magic "system" is really something someone else came up with that I seized upon, because it worked well for me. Each village/town/city has it's own style of magic that it teaches to its people (assuming they have the aptitude and desire to learn it), so that the style of magic you use depends on where you're from. So a player wants XYZ-type of magic, I say, "OK," and place that village somewhere on the map. Usually, a village's style of magic will be directly useful and relevant to the people of that village. For example, a coastal fishing village may have magic that relates to the sea and weather. While a desert-dwelling tribe might have magic that is useful for desert survival. The desert people might have a "create water" spell, but the fishing village probably wouldn't. And usually, the magic will be based on the specific culture of the village/town/city, even if it doesn't relate to the local industry or natural resources. I figure, no point in writing up a thousand spells for players to choose from, when they're only going to actually buy a few dozen among all the players, and they may very well want to create some of their own. There are three basic "sources" of magic: 1. Art - Magic is a force of nature, and it can be studied and manipulated and used, if you're willing to do the work to learn it. This is the typical "wizardly"-type magic, with books to read and magical theories. Magic is a "science" in a way. This is probably the most common type, and has the widest variety of possible effects. Art magicians can, and often do, invent their own original spells. Art magic includes most types of alchemy and creation of magic items. 2. Favor - Magic comes from supernatural beings, the gods, for example. This includes the typical "cleric"-type magic, where the magic ability is granted, directly or indirectly, by one or more gods, or other supernatural beings. This also includes magic relating to the summoning of such beings. The actual gods themselves are not likely to be summoned to do the will of mortals, but other beings might - various spirits, "elementals", even demons. And some kinds of Favor magic is "forced" from the source, where the mage in a sense "steals" the magical ability from a demon or the like, or compels the being to serve. Yes, this last type can be rather dangerous. Favor magic is almost as common as Art magic, and does not have quite as large a variety of effects - being limited by the nature of the being that grants the magic. For example the sun god is not likely to grant his followers a "darkness" spell. 3. Gift - This magic just sort of happens. Some people just have a natural ability to cause some kinds of magical effects. You might call it "wild" magic. There is no "theory" per se, to Gift magic - the only studying to do is to practice and learn control of the magic that is already within you. This kind of magic is fairly rare, and limited in the variety of effects. The usual kinds of effects are psychic - mental, sensory, nature-based, healing, etc. Gift mages may have just one specific "spell" available, or one magical ability that can be applied in a few different ways. Gift magic tends to be easier for the possessor to use, but less powerful overall than other types. In game terms, Gift magic has fewer active points, but fewer limitations. And there can be some specific types of magic that are a blend of the above types. Demon-summoning, for example may require Art to bind the demon to the mage's will, while the effects the demon allows are Favor magic. Magic powers do not get an automatic "spell" limitation, nor do they get an automatic reduction in cost. Magic can be bought in frameworks. And I do not want wizards in my games to be walking artillery platforms. If you want to kill something, just go ahead and use a normal weapon. Attack spells are for unusual circumstances, like if you have to kill something that can't be hurt by normal weapons, or you want to cause some attacking effect other than damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.