4, 5 or 6?

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw Tasha have you seen kids learn to play catch? It isn't natural, its a learned skill.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm familiar with WEG. I am discussing whether cinematic characters can Block in Hero, though. And regardless of how one explains the scene, would Joe Public suggest the droids were dodging in plain English, as opposed to us explaining that a mechanical Dodge need not look like (possess the SFX of) a plain English dodge?

[Netzilla]

Btw Tasha have you seen kids learn to play catch? It isn't natural, its a learned skill.

The same could be said of walking and talking.

[Ninja-Bear]

And whose job is it to note otherwise? Could it be that the rules leave that up to the GM?

Then why is the rule for deflect written the way it is? Why even charge points if the GM waves it? Why even mention that Deflect can remove the need for a focus?

[Netzilla]

Then why is the rule for deflect written the way it is? Why even charge points if the GM waves it? Why even mention that Deflect can remove the need for a focus?

 

You do realize that I'm not suggesting that "ususally' means "never", correct?  It's worded the way it is in case the GM does decide that the SFX you're attempting to use the Deflect power on would normally require an object.

 

1.  Pyro uses his fire power to attack Colossus.  Colossus wants to block but the GM states that blocking the attack would require a solid object.  Therefore, Colossus uses his casual STR to rip up a chunk of concrete to block the fire.

2. Later Pyro attacks Gene Grey.  Because she bought the Deflect power, using her TK as the SFX, she gets to use that instead of requiring a chunk of concrete.

3. Calisto throws a knife at Nightcrawler and he decides to Block (catch) it.  Even though he hasn't bought Deflection, he has superhuman reflexes, so the GM allows this without requiring the use of an object but at a -3.

 

The current wording of Deflection covers all three cases.  If it said "always" rather than "usually", then case 3 would not be possible.  If it said "never" Colossus would not need to rip up a chunk of concrete in case 1.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure they can. It's much easier to deflect something thrown at you than to hit it with a 3' long piece of wood less than 5" wide. People do it all of the time. It's called Catching.

 

 

You've never tried to teach a total novice baseball, I can tell.  Sometimes they roll a 3.  After a while they learn the skill (pay the points) and can do it.  But that's not all!  In Hero you can deflect an Arrow, which is nearly impossible for a human being even with massive training.  Oh, then there are things like missiles and bullets which is literally impossible for anyone to do at any level of training.  But hey, that's not a skill in 6th edition!  Its just something everyone can do!  If the GM says so -- no rules on what happens if he says "no" and you want special training to do it.

[Hugh Neilson]

So, is the infinitely preferable alternative "sorry, Nightcrawler cannot use his superhuman reflexes to catch a knife, or even a rock, and Colossus cannot even attempt to block a jet of flame by ripping the paving - you don't get to do anything unless you pay extra points for the privilege"?

 

I'd rather make the rule "it can be done - work out the SFX" rather than "well, you can do it sometimes if the GM says it is OK, but not all the time and maybe with a penalty, but perhaps not with an object".

 

What if I want special training to deflect an AoE? That's always been in "GM Option" territory.

 

Do I have to buy "transform building into flaming ruin", or can my FireBlast light a building on fire? Can it light a campfire, or must I purchase LS: Resist Cold, Usable by Others, OIF Firewood of Opportunity (expendable), Not Underwater or in a Vacuum, side effect: smoke? Will you then prohibit a fifth person warming themselves by the fire, since I paid for only four, or rule that it sheds no light without a Linked power?

 

I can't imagine how some gamers get the impression Hero is an incredibly complex, detailed game where everything needs to be written up and common sense never applies.

[Chris Goodwin]

So, is the infinitely preferable alternative "sorry, Nightcrawler cannot use his superhuman reflexes to catch a knife, or even a rock, and Colossus cannot even attempt to block a jet of flame by ripping the paving - you don't get to do anything unless you pay extra points for the privilege"?

 

I'd rather make the rule "it can be done - work out the SFX" rather than "well, you can do it sometimes if the GM says it is OK, but not all the time and maybe with a penalty, but perhaps not with an object".

 

What if I want special training to deflect an AoE? That's always been in "GM Option" territory.

 

Do I have to buy "transform building into flaming ruin", or can my FireBlast light a building on fire? Can it light a campfire, or must I purchase LS: Resist Cold, Usable by Others, OIF Firewood of Opportunity (expendable), Not Underwater or in a Vacuum, side effect: smoke? Will you then prohibit a fifth person warming themselves by the fire, since I paid for only four, or rule that it sheds no light without a Linked power?

 

I can't imagine how some gamers get the impression Hero is an incredibly complex, detailed game where everything needs to be written up and common sense never applies.

 

I agree with your reasoning, but I can point to at least two characters for whom Missile Deflection has always been part of their shtick (Wonder Woman and Captain America), and for which all known writeups up until 6th edition have relied on Missile Deflection.  My question is this: why does everyone now get to do for free what they've paid points for, or what they're known for?

[Netzilla]

I agree with your reasoning, but I can point to at least two characters for whom Missile Deflection has always been part of their shtick (Wonder Woman and Captain America), and for which all known writeups up until 6th edition have relied on Missile Deflection.  My question is this: why does everyone now get to do for free what they've paid points for, or what they're known for?

 

Is the question, "why should WW and Cap pay points under 6e" or "why was the rule changed for 6e"?

 

In regards to the first, they'd pay points to be able to have a more reliable ability to block ranged attacks.  They wouldn't have to worry about GM permission or assessed penalties to block they way someone who hadn't paid points would.

 

As for the second, I recall several reasons being discussed for the change during the pre-6e rules discussion on these forums

1) Dodge already works vs both ranged and HtH for free, so why shouldn't block?

2) Is the ability to catch a thrown baseball really worth more than Acrobatics (5 points to deflect thrown objects under 5e vs 3 points for Acrobatics)?

3) Missile Deflection's cost was tied to the SFX of the attack, which runs counter to the ideal of divorcing SFX and mechanics as much as possible (something that came up on the old boards and mailing lists regularly as I recall).

4) Likewise, it provided a mechanical advantage for simply writing "laser" on your character sheet instead of "thrown spear" even if both powers cost the same, which runs counter to the 'you get what you pay for' ideal.

 

Obviously the current solution isn't ideal, but IMO, it's a move in the right direction.  Perhaps we would have been better off with a default list of Block modifiers for dealing with unarmed vs armed and blocking ranged attacks with a toolkitting sidebar for how to adjust those modifiers for different genre considerations.  I suspect such a thing would have made Hugh happier.

 

I seem to remember some discussion of an idea of changing Missile Deflection to have the points cost based on the DC of the attack you can deflect but I don't think the idea gained much traction.

[Christopher R Taylor]

So, is the infinitely preferable alternative "sorry, Nightcrawler cannot use his superhuman reflexes to catch a knife, or even a rock, and Colossus cannot even attempt to block a jet of flame by ripping the paving - you don't get to do anything unless you pay extra points for the privilege"?

 

 

Are you sure you play the same game as me?  You know, Hero, where you get what you pay for?  You spend points to get abilities?

 

I'm sorry that was harsh.  Look, the game starts everyone out at a basic minimal level, then you add to that with your points.  I don't buy that deflecting arrows -- something virtually impossible for a human being except with very controlled, set up conditions -- is default for everyone in the game world, let alone thrown knives, etc.

 

Is the ability to catch a thrown baseball really worth more than Acrobatics (5 points to deflect thrown objects under 5e vs 3 points for Acrobatics)?

 

 

This baseball analogy really misses the point.  Nobody in the game other than Randy Johnson is using the baseball as a weapon.  They aren't throwing to harm you, they're throwing to be caught or get it past you.  There's a huge difference between catching a ball someone tosses to you and deflecting a javelin someone tries to impale you with.  

And when you add in the free ability for every character and NPC in the game including infants to bat aside arrows and bullets and stinger missiles, its turned from unlikely to ridiculous.

 

There's just zero equivalence between dodging and blocking ranged objects.  None.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

You do realize that I'm not suggesting that "ususally' means "never", correct? It's worded the way it is in case the GM does decide that the SFX you're attempting to use the Deflect power on would normally require an object.

 

1. Pyro uses his fire power to attack Colossus. Colossus wants to block but the GM states that blocking the attack would require a solid object. Therefore, Colossus uses his casual STR to rip up a chunk of concrete to block the fire.

2. Later Pyro attacks Gene Grey. Because she bought the Deflect power, using her TK as the SFX, she gets to use that instead of requiring a chunk of concrete.

3. Calisto throws a knife at Nightcrawler and he decides to Block (catch) it. Even though he hasn't bought Deflection, he has superhuman reflexes, so the GM allows this without requiring the use of an object but at a -3.

 

The current wording of Deflection covers all three cases. If it said "always" rather than "usually", then case 3 would not be possible. If it said "never" Colossus would not need to rip up a chunk of concrete in case 1.

As a one time thing? That would have fallen under power skill roll. If you wanted tobdo that reliably then you bought missisle deflection (pre 6th). Now I see people getting into arguments over genre appropriate.

[Netzilla]

This baseball analogy really misses the point.  Nobody in the game other than Randy Johnson is using the baseball as a weapon.  They aren't throwing to harm you, they're throwing to be caught or get it past you.  There's a huge difference between catching a ball someone tosses to you and deflecting a javelin someone tries to impale you with.  

And when you add in the free ability for every character and NPC in the game including infants to bat aside arrows and bullets and stinger missiles, its turned from unlikely to ridiculous.

 

There's just zero equivalence between dodging and blocking ranged objects.  None.

 

Because the Hero System is so effective at modeling infants already. . .

 

Also, by the above logic, all combat maneuvers should cost points.  Not everyone Dodges equally effectively, not everyone throws punches equally effectively, not everyone grapples equally effectively yet the system still offers free versions of those maneuvers.  If you're going to argue that an infant can now block bullets just because 6e added the ability to block ranged attacks (pending GM approval and assessed modifiers), then I'll argue that babies have been able to Dodge them since 1e.  Your hyperbolic example cuts both ways.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Also, by the above logic, all combat maneuvers should cost points.  Not everyone Dodges equally effectively, not everyone throws punches equally effectively

 

 

As represented by their lower CV and strength, resulting in inefficient attacks and evasions.  There's a difference between "people don't do this well" and "this is something nobody can do without exceptional training."  The default, base level non-heroic person in a setting should not be able to do certain things, for free.  You have to train to do some things, which is why there are base combat maneuvers anyone can try, and then stuff that you have to train to try.  Everone can try a haymaker, but you have to buy martial arts to do a legsweep.  This is how the Hero system works.

 

If you want a game world where everyone can bat arrows aside with a slight modifier, knock yourself out, but the rules shouldn't presume that.

[Ninja-Bear]

Netzilla by your logic I shouldnt have to buy up csls or OCV or DCV because I'm a super and I should have that for free. Plus you analogy fir combat maneuvers is false becausr again if you want to be BETTER at them, you pay points.

[Netzilla]

As represented by their lower CV and strength, resulting in inefficient attacks and evasions.  There's a difference between "people don't do this well" and "this is something nobody can do without exceptional training."  The default, base level non-heroic person in a setting should not be able to do certain things, for free.  You have to train to do some things, which is why there are base combat maneuvers anyone can try, and then stuff that you have to train to try.  Everone can try a haymaker, but you have to buy martial arts to do a legsweep.  This is how the Hero system works.

Do those same factors no longer apply to Block? How much training do you think is required to block a sword slash, especially when bare handed? The rules have allowed you to do that since 1e, with penalties being an optional rule.

 

If you want a game world where everyone can bat arrows aside with a slight modifier, knock yourself out, but the rules shouldn't presume that.

Define "slight". A -4, the example minimum penalty suggested by the rules (when the GM allows the block in the first place) is equivalent to attacking someone you can't see.

[Netzilla]

Netzilla by your logic I shouldnt have to buy up csls or OCV or DCV because I'm a super and I should have that for free.

You're going to have to explain to me how you reached that conclusion, especially considering how consistently I've stressed the idea of GM assessed penalties.

 

Plus you analogy fir combat maneuvers is false becausr again if you want to be BETTER at them, you pay points.

Something else I have consistently argued to be the case with blocking ranged attacks. At this point, I have to wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Chris Goodwin]

So I went back to the SETAC discussion, and reread some of those discussions, including Steve's draft text (which is a bit more extensive than the text in CC, not unexpectedly).  In light of this discussion I kind of wish I'd pushed back a bit more on it then, but hindsight being 20/20...  Right now I'm really pushing against the wishy-washiness of it; also the discussion back then did touch on the hinkiness of the GM permission part, and Geoff Speare suggested that the overall Block vs. ranged ability ought to be made an optional rule.  Which still puts it into GM discretion land... 

 

 

1) Dodge already works vs both ranged and HtH for free, so why shouldn't block?

 

 

Because I still want there to be a qualitative difference between the trained and experienced Jedi, who can block blaster shots with their lightsabers, and Han Solo who can just use Luke's saber to gut a taun-taun without dismembering himself.  Or a difference between the fantasy knight, who is trained and experienced in combat, and his squire, who is still learning the ins and outs.  Or Wonder Woman or Captain America, versus other supers who maybe rely on their agility to avoid the attack (Spider-Man) or on their invulnerability to bounce it (Superman, the Thing). 

 

 

2) Is the ability to catch a thrown baseball really worth more than Acrobatics (5 points to deflect thrown objects under 5e vs 3 points for Acrobatics)?

 

 

I think we're talking about more than catching a thrown baseball here, but as has been mentioned, even catching a thrown ball is a skill.  And there's a big difference between parent and child playing catch in the back yard, versus a trained and experienced pitcher blasting a fastball across the plate, past a trained and experienced batter armed with a club into a trained and experienced catcher wearing armor, both of whom are prepared. 

 

 

3) Missile Deflection's cost was tied to the SFX of the attack, which runs counter to the ideal of divorcing SFX and mechanics as much as possible (something that came up on the old boards and mailing lists regularly as I recall).

 

 

So let's fix that.  20 points for all attacks, and you can reduce that with Limitations: Only Vs. Muscle Powered Projectiles (arrows, thrown knives, sling bullets, etc.).  Or Not Vs. High Powered Energy Attacks (lasers and such). 

 

 

4) Likewise, it provided a mechanical advantage for simply writing "laser" on your character sheet instead of "thrown spear" even if both powers cost the same, which runs counter to the 'you get what you pay for' ideal.

 

 

I think there's more to the differences between a laser and a thrown spear than just what they're called.  The laser might have the No Range Modifier Advantage, among others; the thrown spear would definitely have the Range Based On STR Limitation. 

 

Anyway, the common thread above seems to be that some people with experience and training can do it.  Which is defined in the HERO System as a Skill.  Let me channel Hugh a bit.  20 points is how much the Deflection Power costs, which gives you Range, GM Permission, and effectively cancels the OCV penalties, which for the sake of argument can range from no penalty to -4.  4 PSLs with Block, versus penalties for Blocking ranged attacks, is 8 points.  20 minus 8 is 12; a 12-point (base cost) Power bought No Range is 8, or an 8-point (base) non-Ranged Power bought with Range is 12.  Our hypothetical Deflect Skill is now 8 points, comparable in cost with the Autofire Skills or various combinations of Defense Maneuvers, and lets you Block ranged attacks at No Range, but doesn't do anything about the penalties.  I'm happy with this.

 

And there's my house rule.

[Chris Goodwin]

Do those same factors no longer apply to Block? How much training do you think is required to block a sword slash, especially when bare handed? The rules have allowed you to do that since 1e, with penalties being an optional rule.

 

Define "slight". A -4, the example minimum penalty suggested by the rules (when the GM allows the block in the first place) is equivalent to attacking someone you can't see.

 

Per CC, the penalty for Blocking ranged attacks is -1 to -3 if armed, or -4 or more if not.  Players being players, they'll argue for that -4 when unarmed.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Because the Hero System is so effective at modeling infants already. . .

 

Also, by the above logic, all combat maneuvers should cost points.  Not everyone Dodges equally effectively, not everyone throws punches equally effectively, not everyone grapples equally effectively yet the system still offers free versions of those maneuvers.  If you're going to argue that an infant can now block bullets just because 6e added the ability to block ranged attacks (pending GM approval and assessed modifiers), then I'll argue that babies have been able to Dodge them since 1e.  Your hyperbolic example cuts both ways.

 

We have a number of combat maneuvers that do cost points, and are defined as Skills.  As I mentioned, the Autofire Skills, or Defense Maneuver, or Fast Draw.  Or Martial Arts.  We have a difference between a regular Dodge (+3 DCV) and a trained and experienced Martial Dodge (+5) for which you pay points. 

 

At any rate, that's my GM option right there.  8 points as a Skill to do it at no range, with penalties.  

[Hugh Neilson]

Is the question, "why should WW and Cap pay points under 6e" or "why was the rule changed for 6e"?

 

In regards to the first, they'd pay points to be able to have a more reliable ability to block ranged attacks. They wouldn't have to worry about GM permission or assessed penalties to block they way someone who hadn't paid points would.

Even with the complete removal of any penalty for blocking ranged attacks (or a consistent penalty that applies to every attempt to block ranged attacks), I suggest they would pay points for the skill to be better at blocking ranged attacks. Skill levels, penalty skill levels and Martial Block are all examples of paying points for being better at blocking.

 

Obviously the current solution isn't ideal, but IMO, it's a move in the right direction. Perhaps we would have been better off with a default list of Block modifiers for dealing with unarmed vs armed and blocking ranged attacks with a toolkitting sidebar for how to adjust those modifiers for different genre considerations. I suspect such a thing would have made Hugh happier.

Agreed on both counts – it could be better, but it is still an improvement.

 

Are you sure you play the same game as me? You know, Hero, where you get what you pay for? You spend points to get abilities?

 

I'm sorry that was harsh. Look, the game starts everyone out at a basic minimal level, then you add to that with your points.

Please explain how the following is consistent with getting what I pay for:

 

- I define my attack as a thrown object. I get no point break over the guy who defines his attack as a laser beam, but it costs less for people to be able to block my attack.

-

- I define my attack as a weapon, and get a Focus limitation, saving points. It is now MORE difficult for unarmed opponents to Block my attack because I am armed, and easier for me to block attacks by armed opponents.

 

 

I don't buy that deflecting arrows -- something virtually impossible for a human being except with very controlled, set up conditions -- is default for everyone in the game world, let alone thrown knives, etc.

 

 

But you are OK with everyone being able to dive a meter or two away and completely avoid any attack aimed at them, with a 50% (or higher) success rate. Let’s compare:

 

- Everyone can block – when Captain America hurls his mighty shield, they have to roll using their OCV against his OCV. Good luck, Normal Guy!

 

- Everyone can Dive for Cover - when Captain America hurls his mighty shield, they have a 50% chance of avoiding it. No amount of additional skill will give Cap a better chance of connecting.

 

This baseball analogy really misses the point. Nobody in the game other than Randy Johnson is using the baseball as a weapon. They aren't throwing to harm you, they're throwing to be caught or get it past you. There's a huge difference between catching a ball someone tosses to you and deflecting a javelin someone tries to impale you with.

People have died from thrown baseballs. People can deflect thrown baseballs.

 

A HTH Block against a club is no tougher than one against a knife, so why is range different?

 

 

 

And when you add in the free ability for every character and NPC in the game including infants to bat aside arrows and bullets and stinger missiles, its turned from unlikely to ridiculous.

 

That infant can, however, Block a Bruce Lee strike in every edition. The game is not designed around accurately simulating the abilities of non-combatant NPCs.

 

There's just zero equivalence between dodging and blocking ranged objects. None.

There is nothing wrong with the SFX of Blocking an attack being defined as getting out of the way of the attack. Or do you think Han Solo blocking a Lightsaber (not a ranged attack) involves him deflecting the Lightsaber with his arm?

 

If a Block cannot be avoiding the attack, do you also prohibit defenses defined as avoiding the attack? That is, Combat Luck.

 

Can I buy Defenses through a Shield, or only Block levels? Funny…by RAW, shields add to DCV, so am I parrying or dodging? Or is there an element of both?

 

You are imposing a single special effect in a game which does not link mechanics to special effects – so maybe we are NOT playing the same game. You know, Hero, where mechanics are separated from special effects? Or am I being harsh?

 

And I do not think your comment was unreasonable, FWIW. Or at least any more unreasonable than my own comments.

[Hugh Neilson]

As represented by their lower CV and strength, resulting in inefficient attacks and evasions. There's a difference between "people don't do this well" and "this is something nobody can do without exceptional training." The default, base level non-heroic person in a setting should not be able to do certain things, for free. You have to train to do some things, which is why there are base combat maneuvers anyone can try, and then stuff that you have to train to try. Everone can try a haymaker, but you have to buy martial arts to do a legsweep. This is how the Hero system works.

 

If you want a game world where everyone can bat arrows aside with a slight modifier, knock yourself out, but the rules shouldn't presume that.

Why should they let anyone block a Lightsaber, but not a thrown rock? Sorry, but I do not find your version of Cinematic Reality superior to that where anyone* can attempt a Block against a ranged attack

 

* Anyone not necessarily including NPC noncombatants - there is no reason they have to be treated the same as PCs, even PCs who spend no points on an ability. That's no different than the suggestion mooks don't recover from a KO, or die on reaching 0 BOD.

 

Netzilla by your logic I shouldnt have to buy up csls or OCV or DCV because I'm a super and I should have that for free. Plus you analogy fir combat maneuvers is false becausr again if you want to be BETTER at them, you pay points.

And if we accept that blocking ranged attacks is a standard combat maneuver, you still get BETTER at blocking ranged attacks by paying points. Everyone gets OCV 3 and DCV 3 by default, and can buy improved CVs. They get to Dodge (+3 DCV) and Block HTH weapons (+0 OCV, +0 DCV). And they can pay points to get better.

 

How is that on a completely different level than allowing everyone to Block ranged attacks (+0 OCV, +0 DCV, or whatever standard you want to apply), and they pay points to get better?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Why should they let anyone block a Lightsaber, but not a thrown rock? 

 

 

...because you can?  I mean, other than the lightsaber cutting everything in half, and me not being any good at it, its something a regular average person can do.

 

That infant can, however, Block a Bruce Lee strike in every edition.

 

 

He can try, yeah, but Bruce has incredible OCV and will hit anyway.  Especially with the  penalty to OCV for a block.  Because the regular person can do it.  But they cannot without great luck block something thrown at them.

 

I know we're all gaming geeks and stuff but really didn't you ever play around as a kid and try this stuff out in real life with friends??

[Hugh Neilson]

As for the second, I recall several reasons being discussed for the change during the pre-6e rules discussion on these forums

1) Dodge already works vs both ranged and HtH for free, so why shouldn't block?

Because I still want there to be a qualitative difference between the trained and experienced Jedi, who can block blaster shots with their lightsabers, and Han Solo who can just use Luke's saber to gut a taun-taun without dismembering himself.

But Han Solo can TRY to block a Lightsaber swing, can’t he? And, since he neither paid points to own a Lightsaber nor paid for WF: Lightsaber, he is at a -3 OCV penalty using it, so he is nowhere near as good at using it as “Luke on the Death Star”, who has basic training, much less “Luke in Jabba’s Palace” who has invested in skill levels with the Lightsaber.

 

But does he really Block? Does he have so many levels that the -10 penalty for the sixth blaster bolt doesn’t even phase him? Or does he get a massive DCV bonus in a Multipower slot, versus ranged attacks only, defined as “Lightsaber Block”? Or maybe several levels of Damage Negation, sufficient to eliminate any damage from a blaster bolt?

[Hugh Neilson]

Or a difference between the fantasy knight, who is trained and experienced in combat, and his squire, who is still learning the ins and outs.

Oh look – knights have higher CVs than squires!

 

Or Wonder Woman or Captain America, versus other supers who maybe rely on their agility to avoid the attack (Spider-Man) or on their invulnerability to bounce it (Superman, the Thing).

OK, I am trying to stop laughing as I remember the write-ups I have seen of Spider-Man with Missile Deflection defined as “Super-Dodge” and Bricks with Missile Deflection defined as “Bullets Bounce Off”.

 

And I have seen Cap and WW written up with abilities that provide massive Rpd/Red to simulate their nearly infallible ability to “deflect” attacks.

 

Same mechanic, different SFX. Welcome to Hero.

 

2) Is the ability to catch a thrown baseball really worth more than Acrobatics (5 points to deflect thrown objects under 5e vs 3 points for Acrobatics)?

I think we're talking about more than catching a thrown baseball here, but as has been mentioned, even catching a thrown ball is a skill. And there's a big difference between parent and child playing catch in the back yard, versus a trained and experienced pitcher blasting a fastball across the plate, past a trained and experienced batter armed with a club into a trained and experienced catcher wearing armor, both of whom are prepared.

Yeah. The pitcher has higher OCV, and is using it. But, under pre-6e rules, no one without Missile Deflection can even TRY to deflect that weekend warrior’s softball, nor the major league pitcher’s fastball. In 6e, you can, but one requires a much greater degree of skill (OCV) than the other. The skill is not in being able to attempt, but likelihood of success.

 

3) Missile Deflection's cost was tied to the SFX of the attack, which runs counter to the ideal of divorcing SFX and mechanics as much as possible (something that came up on the old boards and mailing lists regularly as I recall).

So let's fix that. 20 points for all attacks, and you can reduce that with Limitations: Only Vs. Muscle Powered Projectiles (arrows, thrown knives, sling bullets, etc.). Or Not Vs. High Powered Energy Attacks (lasers and such).

And we are back to needing 20 AP to be permitted the chance to deflect a thrown rock. Better, I’ll admit, but not, objectively, superior to “anyone* can try”.

 

* again, the cinematic Anyones.

 

4) Likewise, it provided a mechanical advantage for simply writing "laser" on your character sheet instead of "thrown spear" even if both powers cost the same, which runs counter to the 'you get what you pay for' ideal.

Yup. I lost count of how many players had NND’s using skin absorbed gases (didn’t cost any more than inhaled gases) and focuses carefully defined as non-ferrous so magnetic powers would not affect them.

 

I think there's more to the differences between a laser and a thrown spear than just what they're called. The laser might have the No Range Modifier Advantage, among others; the thrown spear would definitely have the Range Based On STR Limitation.

The Stormtrooper blaster is just a Blast, I think, and the bow and arrow has no special range-limiting modifiers. But this is beside the point – Missile Deflection cost less for spears and more for lasers, not less for range with limitations and more for range with advantages, so you are no longer discussing the pre 6e RAW.

 

Maybe the thrown object is Rogue hurling a Susan B. Anthony dollar. Is that a lot harder to deflect than a laser? Even if the person trying to deflect it has a mirror?

 

Anyway, the common thread above seems to be that some people with experience and training can do it. Which is defined in the HERO System as a Skill.

And some people can throw a haymaker or dodge effectively.

 

Making the base ability cost 8 points, or setting a -4 standard penalty, is in no way superior to requiring a point expenditure for the base ability, or having no standard penalty. You can buy your Laser with “CE: -4 penalty to Block, Laser only” linked to it, if you want your attack to be especially difficult to block. That’s no less reasonable than requiring points be spent for the ability to deflect a thrown rock.

 

Hero has Everyman Skills (including Everyman Maneuvers) for things any action character can attempt too.

 

We have a number of combat maneuvers that do cost points, and are defined as Skills. As I mentioned, the Autofire Skills, or Defense Maneuver, or Fast Draw. Or Martial Arts. We have a difference between a regular Dodge (+3 DCV) and a trained and experienced Martial Dodge (+5) for which you pay points.

We could make people pay for Dodge too, or make the base Dodge +1 DCV (free), Expert Dodge +3 DCV (4 points) and Martial Dodge +5 DCV (8 points). The only difference is we accept the current free Dodge because anyone can dodge AND we have always had it, while we debate blocking ranged attacks for free, despite the fact anyone can do it (at least to the same extent that anyone can Dodge a bullet or a laser beam).

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm leaning toward the penalty being more for an unarmed Block rather than Blocking a ranged attack.  I would say that Blocking with a comparable weapon (e.g. sword vs. sword) or appropriate defense (shield vs. sword or arrows) would reduce or eliminate the penalty.  But unarmed vs. a sword?  Should definitely be at a penalty, and would be another one of those things that experience and training (in the form of PSLs) would counteract.  

 

I'm also a little more adamant about a Block being specific to using your offensive ability (your OCV) to actively defend from an attack by "attacking it".  Getting out of the way of an attack wouldn't be a Block IMO.  Cyclops blasting an incoming blast with his eyebeams would be (and would also count as an appropriate "weapon" for that).