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4, 5 or 6?


GCMorris

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3rd edition didn't require a focus, just requirements of being aware of the attack and having the STR to lift the item deflected.  It notes that you cannot deflect area effect attacks unless the special effect is in a deflectable item like a grenade.

 

It does, however, have this line:

 

Often, Missile Deflection is bought through a focus like a shield or baton.

 

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It had definitely changed by 4e. Not sure if it was 2e to 3e or 3e to 4e as I never worked with 3e.

Looking at my copy of Champs 3e, the Missile Defection power had the following differences:

  • DEX roll rather than a Block roll.
  • Thrown objects at base, with Bullets and Any as adders (no mention of where shrapnel falls in that list).
  • Cannot deflect anything heavier than half max lift.

No mention of a required focus.

 

The write-up in Justice Inc. is similar but only allows "low-velocity projectiles like knives, arrows, spears, etc."  However, it does mention getting a size-based bonus for using an object to perform the deflection.  In 3e Star Hero, Missile Deflection is a Device power.  It does not show up under Alien or Mental powers.  I couldn't find it in Robot Warriors.  So, the rules for Missile Deflection changed from book to book prior to 4e.

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In 6e, Blocking Ranged Attacks has become something that anyone can do, with GM permission and if the conditions are right.  What if I want my character to be able to do it reliably?  I should be able to pay points for that, right?  To me, that's what the (Missile) Deflection Power is for.  

 

The Deflection Power in 6e means you can Block Ranged Attacks at range, and not require an object of some kind.  It essentially shortcuts the "GM permission" and "objects required" portions of the rules for Blocking Ranged Attacks.  That seems like the right Power to use... right?

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In 6e, Blocking Ranged Attacks has become something that anyone can do, with GM permission and if the conditions are right. What if I want my character to be able to do it reliably? I should be able to pay points for that, right? To me, that's what the (Missile) Deflection Power is for.

 

The Deflection Power in 6e means you can Block Ranged Attacks at range, and not require an object of some kind. It essentially shortcuts the "GM permission" and "objects required" portions of the rules for Blocking Ranged Attacks. That seems like the right Power to use... right?

It seems so but Chris how do you with sixth buy swordsman who can slice arrows with any sword but not magic. Kung Fu master who can bat away arrows barehanded and He-man whose swords allows to deflect any power? 5th was no problem. 6th with wide GM fiat is harder for me fathom.

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It seems so but Chris how do you with sixth buy swordsman who can slice arrows with any sword but not magic. Kung Fu master who can bat away arrows barehanded and He-man whose swords allows to deflect any power? 5th was no problem. 6th with wide GM fiat is harder for me fathom.

 

Swordsman:  Deflection, No Range, OIF Sword Of Opportunity, Arrows Only.  

 

Kung Fu Master:  Deflection, No Range, Arrows Only.  

 

He-Man:  Deflection, No Range, OIF, Sword Of Opportunity. 

 

As always, if you're the player, ask your GM.  If you're the GM, and you do it like this, make sure the players are getting what they pay for.  TBH, I think the "GM permission" part adds a lot of uncertainty to the mix that never existed throughout the last five editions.  Missile Deflection was always one of those things that if you want to do it, you buy the Power.  I'm inclined to continue in that way in games that I run.  

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Not much different than putting a warning icon or stop sign icon next to the power. Why add all the extra "with GM permission" caveats? Well, because it wouldn't be 6e if it didn't suffocate you with excess verbiage.

That's a big part of the problem - and also some second guessing by Steve Long.

 

We're going to ditch the "no more than double" rule for KA's. But maybe not - we'll put a sidebar to suggest putting it back.

 

We'll let characters block ranged attacks by default. But maybe not all ranged attacks, and maybe not always, and maybe not all characters, so we don't really have a rule at all, by the time we toss in all the "GM may decide's". Maybe Dodge should provide +3 DCV, but maybe only against those attacks where the GM thinks it should provide bonus DCV, and maybe a reduced bonus against some attacks, but sometimes it also affects DMCV, but only if the GM wants it to.

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Swordsman: Deflection, No Range, OIF Sword Of Opportunity, Arrows Only.

 

Kung Fu Master: Deflection, No Range, Arrows Only.

 

He-Man: Deflection, No Range, OIF, Sword Of Opportunity.

 

As always, if you're the player, ask your GM. If you're the GM, and you do it like this, make sure the players are getting what they pay for. TBH, I think the "GM permission" part adds a lot of uncertainty to the mix that never existed throughout the last five editions. Missile Deflection was always one of those things that if you want to do it, you buy the Power. I'm inclined to continue in that way in games that I run.

That's what I was thinking too. Good I'm not alone : )

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Blocking ranged attacks. That's something that should be discussed with the GM during Session Zero. Find out what they think about the whole thing.

I think that the reason there are so many caveats is that Hero is also played at the non-superheroic level. So the rules always have to keep that in mind. For me if I were running Champions I wouldn't worry about it much. I would just flat allow any PC that wants to deflect a ranged attack to do it. For a Heroic level game, I would be less likely to allow it at all. It depends on the genre. For fantasy I might allow wizards to deflect spells if they had a spell with a similar effect (ie damage vs damage). For a Military Game, I probably wouldn't allow it at all, unless it really made sense or the character/campaign was built for it (ie an insane GunKata game I would allow it).

IMHO it makes sense to allow PCs to deflect without a special power. It's something that you see in a ton of different genres. I like that PC's don't have to spend points for it. I guess you COULD make a heroic character buy WF Deflection and For Martial arts. Weapon Element (ranged block). YMMV

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Tasha I feel that if want the ability, you pay for it. I believe that this will cause less headache for everyone involved. Again within the same genre like Fantasy where it could be expected that one could deflect magic and one could not, I seem the potential for more argument than before.

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One could also rule that a PC wanting the ability to perform a Haymaker or Dive for Cover should pay points for the privilege. The fact is that, in the past, "Deflect an incoming ranged attack" as been something the character had to pay points for, not a "basic maneuver". If the rules had been the same since 1e, I suspect it would get much less complaints than when we address it here.

 

Funny...6e also added some basic combat maneuvers which no one is complaining about. EVERYONE can Trip, or Choke, now.

 

Why, in my day, you needed to pay points for that - and you couldn't buy just that one maneuver, no sir, you had to invest 10 points in Martial Arts.

 

LUXURY! When I started out, if you wanted Martial Arts, you paid points equal to your STR for the privilege - and you got five maneuvers, not this posh list to choose from.

 

And you try to tell the young players that today, and they'll not believe you!

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One could also rule that a PC wanting the ability to perform a Haymaker or Dive for Cover should pay points for the privilege. The fact is that, in the past, "Deflect an incoming ranged attack" as been something the character had to pay points for, not a "basic maneuver". If the rules had been the same since 1e, I suspect it would get much less complaints than when we address it here.

 

Funny...6e also added some basic combat maneuvers which no one is complaining about. EVERYONE can Trip, or Choke, now.

 

Why, in my day, you needed to pay points for that - and you couldn't buy just that one maneuver, no sir, you had to invest 10 points in Martial Arts.

 

LUXURY! When I started out, if you wanted Martial Arts, you paid points equal to your STR for the privilege - and you got five maneuvers, not this posh list to choose from.

 

And you try to tell the young players that today, and they'll not believe you!

Ok but you can do all thise maneuvers with or without a focus and with Gm permission. Why is it free with a focus and gm permission but without a focus costs 20 cp?

 

And those maneuvers are consistant among genres. Blocking ranged attacks are not.

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For folks wanting to pay points in order to reliably block ranged attacks, you can also look into Combat/Penalty Skill Levels or OCV bought specifically to counter penalties for blocking ranged attacks.  Likewise for blocking armed attacks while unarmed.

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For folks wanting to pay points in order to reliably block ranged attacks, you can also look into Combat/Penalty Skill Levels or OCV bought specifically to counter penalties for blocking ranged attacks. Likewise for blocking armed attacks while unarmed.

And how much cp? The answer depends on GM.

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To block ranged attacks with or without a focus only costs a penalty on the Block roll (same as for blocking a HtH weapon with your bare hands).  If you have an object to block with, that penalty will be less.  The amount of the penalty is assessed by the GM, just like with so many other penalties to attacks and skills.  If you want a power to allow you to block more reliably, you need to talk to your GM about what what would be sufficient to cancel these penalties.  That's no different than asking the GM what the CV, DC or DEF ranges are for a given campaign.  The option at the end of the Block rules on page 149 of CC suggests a starting penalty of -4 to block ranged attacks, so you'd want at least +4 OCV Only to Block Ranged Attacks (I'd rate that at -1 1/2 for 20 AP and 8 RC [2 CP per level, same as a CSL with Block would cost]).

 

Now, where I do disagree with the rules is the statement that CSLs bought with Block only ever apply to HtH.  I'd allow CLSs with Block to apply to both by default, just like CSLs with Dodge would apply to both, but that's a House Rule.

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Looking at my copy of Champs 3e, the Missile Defection power had the following differences:

  • DEX roll rather than a Block roll.
  • Thrown objects at base, with Bullets and Any as adders (no mention of where shrapnel falls in that list).
  • Cannot deflect anything heavier than half max lift.

No mention of a required focus.

 

It's the same in Champions 2e.

 

(I happen to have 2e with me, but I can check 1e when I get home, if anyone's interested.)

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It's the same in Champions 2e.

 

(I happen to have 2e with me, but I can check 1e when I get home, if anyone's interested.)

 

I suspect folks were thinking of the various non-champs genre books for Missile Deflection requiring a focus (Star Hero for example).  I am mildly curious as to if 1e had any further differences.

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Page reference?  The Block maneuver allows you to block both HtH and Ranged attacks aimed at you or someone adjacent to you (with an additional -2 penalty when blocking for someone else).  The GM might require you to have an object to block or they may just levy a penalty.  That's up to the individual GM based on the SFX and genre involved.  In my own examples, I illustrated how this varies from genre to genre (see post 54). 

 

As we seem to mainly be talking about Superheroes here, I would think most reasonable GMs would allow a Block roll at a penalty rather than flat out denying a block if you don't have an object of opportunity to block with.  There are many examples in superhero comics where heroes slap arrows aside and even catch bullets with their bare hands (never mind slapping aside gun barrels in close combat).  However, I have stated several times that all of this is a GM call, just as the rules state.  The rules do not state a hard requirement of needing an object to block with.  The rules clearly place that into the realm of GM call.  Feel free to post a question to the Rules Question forum to see if an object is required.  I strongly suspect that Steve Long will state that it's up to the GM.

 

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Netzilla reread CC. If you want to use powers like TK to deflect something without a focus you pay 20pts. Barehanded I would presume falls under this.

 

Page reference?  The Block maneuver allows you to block both HtH and Ranged attacks aimed at you or someone adjacent to you (with an additional -2 penalty when blocking for someone else).  The GM might require you to have an object to block or they may just levy a penalty.  That's up to the individual GM based on the SFX and genre involved.  In my own examples, I illustrated how this varies from genre to genre (see post 54).

CC p. 57.

 

 

As we seem to mainly be talking about Superheroes here, I would think most reasonable GMs would allow a Block roll at a penalty rather than flat out denying a block if you don't have an object of opportunity to block with.  There are many examples in superhero comics where heroes slap arrows aside and even catch bullets with their bare hands (never mind slapping aside gun barrels in close combat).  However, I have stated several times that all of this is a GM call, just as the rules state.  The rules do not state a hard requirement of needing an object to block with.  The rules clearly place that into the realm of GM call.  Feel free to post a question to the Rules Question forum to see if an object is required.  I strongly suspect that Steve Long will state that it's up to the GM.

 

This is where we run into the problem.  What if Wonder Woman's player has bought Bracelets (Deflection, OIF, No Range), which in previous editions she has bought as Missile Deflection (OIF)?  She kind of expects that deflecting missiles is going to be one of the things she's known for.  Except now anyone can do it, even with bullets?  Why is she paying points for this?  

 

Missile Deflection was one of those Powers that was in the system from 1e that you could look at and knew which character it was meant for.  

 

I don't like the GM call.  I really, really don't.  Either someone is going to pay points for a thing anyone can do, or no one is going to pay points for it, and it becomes a GM "Mother May I".  Players are going to push:  "My concept says that I should be able to deflect bullets with my bare hands!"  

 

Now I gotta write a house rule.   :tsk:

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Here's the Champions Complete entry on Deflection

 

Expands a character’s ability to Block Ranged attacks. Examples include telekinetically knocking missiles out of the air, or a laser point-defense system that can shoot down missiles and energy beams.
 
Deflection allows a character to use the rules for Blocking Ranged attacks (page 149) to Block attacks against targets at Range (not just attacks made against him or someone adjacent to him), and to disregard the usual need for a shield or similar object. Otherwise, all standard rules for Blocking Ranged attacks apply. If a character Deflects a Constant attack, the first roll Deflects it entirely; it’s as if the attacker missed the target.

 

 

Now it doesn't say specifically that you must use deflect to block things at range with telekinesis, but its pretty strongly implied that with any method, you can only block attacks at range with Deflect, including telekinesis.

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CC p. 57. 

Here's the Champions Complete entry on Deflection

{Snip book text}

Since the text for Deflection references page 149, let's also look there:

 

To Block a Ranged attack, the character must be the target of the attack, or must be adjacent to the target. The GM may also require that a character attempting such a Block have a shield or some other appropriate means of blocking, depending on the Special Effects involved.

 

In Ranged combat, an unarmed Blocker is at -4 or more (if allowed to Block at all).

 

That clearly puts this in GM call territory rather than being a hard requirement.

 

Now it doesn't say specifically that you must use deflect to block things at range with telekinesis, but its pretty strongly implied that with any method, you can only block attacks at range with Deflect, including telekinesis.

Blocking things at range is not the same as blocking ranged attacks. Blocking things at range means blocking attacks made against a target outside your reach (including HtH attacks).

 

This is where we run into the problem.  What if Wonder Woman's player has bought Bracelets (Deflection, OIF, No Range), which in previous editions she has bought as Missile Deflection (OIF)?  She kind of expects that deflecting missiles is going to be one of the things she's known for.  Except now anyone can do it, even with bullets?  Why is she paying points for this?   

 

To do it without a -4 or greater penalty.

 

Missile Deflection was one of those Powers that was in the system from 1e that you could look at and knew which character it was meant for.   I don't like the GM call.  I really, really don't.  Either someone is going to pay points for a thing anyone can do, or no one is going to pay points for it, and it becomes a GM "Mother May I".  Players are going to push:  "My concept says that I should be able to deflect bullets with my bare hands!"   Now I gotta write a house rule.   :tsk:

  

 

Why, then, does anyone pay points for CSLs with block if anyone can block? Why pay for a Hand Attack if anyone can pick up a stick? Why pay points for running when everyone can run? Why pay for WF:Small Arms when anyone can pull a trigger? Because you want to do these things better/without penalties.

 

Also, are GMs no longer looking over character sheets before the campaign? Are they failing to notice these supposedly superfluous Deflection builds or are they just being dicks and not saying anything? Perhaps the GM actually understands the intent is to be able to blocked ranged attacks at no (or a reduced) penalty and will either allow it or work with the player to come up with better use for their points.

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