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Movement - how do you do it


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I have brought this here because I said I would not post in creat pit trap again! :-). But also as it is a discussion (probably) not core to that discussion.

 

My understanding of the rules as written, and I am poring through them just now trying to refine how I came to this understanding, is that your movement in a phase occurs within the segment you take that phase's action.

 

So, if you are SPD 4 with 8m running, your phases are on segments 3,6,9 and 12. On segment 3 you decide to half move and hit an opponent. That all happens in segment 3. If you decide to move 8m instead, then that too all happens in segment 3.

 

The SPD 6 opponent who decides to shoot you on segment 4 does not get to do so before you either punch him or run behind that wall 7m away.

 

Right?

 

Doc

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Yeah, that's how I understand it and have run things for decades now.

 

In order to have a game work, you have to make certain concessions to rules and technique versus reality or believability.  For Hero, the most obvious expression of this is the movement where you basically teleport around on the battlefield (because your phase originally was your frame in the comic book, one panel of action, frozen in time).  Its a bit awkward for some things but I think it works well enough.

 

I do think letting people move after attacking wouldn't be so game-breaking though.

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Thank Christopher.

 

To further refine my example, the SPD 4 character whose first phase kicks in on segment 3 could decide to do all that running in segment 3, segment 4 or segment 5, yes? Then could move the same in segment 6?

 

I have rarely had a game instance where thus might be important, but there is a tactical difference in the way this works.

 

Doc

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Doc i agree with you. And as concession, that is how Battletech works. Even though you move 67 kph, they have a movement phase then a shooting phase then a physical attack phase. Also being a tactical game, you actually off set the number of mechs per side to help a little with balance. I.e. if I have say 3 mechs to your 1 and I win initative, I still move one of my mechs first. And that works out ok.

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Doc i agree with you. And as concession, that is how Battletech works. Even though you move 67 kph, they have a movement phase then a shooting phase then a physical attack phase. Also being a tactical game, you actually off set the number of mechs per side to help a little with balance. I.e. if I have say 3 mechs to your 1 and I win initative, I still move one of my mechs first. And that works out ok.

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I have brought this here because I said I would not post in creat pit trap again! :-). But also as it is a discussion (probably) not core to that discussion.

 

My understanding of the rules as written, and I am poring through them just now trying to refine how I came to this understanding, is that your movement in a phase occurs within the segment you take that phase's action.

 

So, if you are SPD 4 with 8m running, your phases are on segments 3,6,9 and 12. On segment 3 you decide to half move and hit an opponent. That all happens in segment 3. If you decide to move 8m instead, then that too all happens in segment 3.

 

The SPD 6 opponent who decides to shoot you on segment 4 does not get to do so before you either punch him or run behind that wall 7m away.

 

Right?

 

Doc

 

Rules as Written, all of your actions within a phase occur during the segment which your phase took place. Because that isn't always convenient or realistic, we have rules for Holding Actions which allow characters to push the actions a few segments later to better line up with the actions of others. For example, Holding your Action to use your Healing power on a slower ally after they have come into the range of your ability. There are also optional rules for segmented movement in one of the APGs (IIRC), but they can really slow down the game, and don't add much to it in my opinion.

As Christopher points out though, Phases are simply the "panels" wherein events of the "comic" culminate. In terms of the narrative of the game, a character with SPD 2 isn't stationary during segments 1-5, and then suddenly runs 6m and punches a robber on the 6th segment... even though mechanically that is exactly what is happening.

While the rules in CC/FHC neither explicitly allow or prohibit doing so, I would probably allow a character to Hold a Partial Action. For example, a character with SPD 2 might want to move 6m as a Half-Phase Action during their Phase on Segment 6 to block a doorway, but then want to Hold their remaining Half-Phase Action to Strike an enemy with their sword as soon as the enemy with SPD 3 comes into range during the enemy's Phase on Segment 8 (long before the character would have had another chance to Strike the enemy on Segment 12). But since I am unsure the RAW supports that, it is a house rule.

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Bear in mind that your character is still considered to be moving or dodging or whatever in between his Phases. So, if your character flies 10" on his Phase, he still has a velocity of 10" until his next action. Likewise, whatever action was taken that affects OCV and DCV still continues to affect OCV and DCV until the character's next action (or an Abort). In effect, that move and/or attack is sort of still "happening" in those segments in between Phases.

 

In the case of an attack or other Instant power, you have to imagine that it was fired off at the end of the Phase, but the character is still "following through" in whatever way you can imagine it making sense for the action taken. It isn't as though time/action freezes in between Phases. It is all supposed to be thought of as continuous and on-going at all times.

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So, if your character flies 10" on his Phase, he still has a velocity of 10" until his next action.

Not necessarily. Activating your Movement Power, Accelerating to your maximum velocity, Performing a Full Move, Decelerating to zero velocity, and then Deactivating your Movement Power all in the same phase is explicitly called out as being permitted by CC/FHC. Because you cannot shut off a Movement Power until you've decelerated to zero velocity, anyone who still has Velocity remaining from the previous phase would be forced to spend at least a Half-Phase action moving the minimum distance required to decelerate to zero velocity before they could turn off their Movement Power.

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To be fair to zslane, he did not say you HAD to gave the same velocity, he was pointing out that the movement effects linger through a phase even if the actual movement happens in a single segment (good and bad).

 

Personally, the acceleration/deceleration rules were too much bureaucracy for my group, we ignore them.

 

 

Doc

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Thank Christopher.

 

To further refine my example, the SPD 4 character whose first phase kicks in on segment 3 could decide to do all that running in segment 3, segment 4 or segment 5, yes? Then could move the same in segment 6?

 

I have rarely had a game instance where thus might be important, but there is a tactical difference in the way this works.

 

Doc

Technically their phase is whatever segment they take it in. That phase could be on Seg3,4,5 and yes they could move up to their max on Seg 5 and then move the same on seg 6. That movement isn't fluid is kind of weird when looked at from a metagame perspective, but it's supposed to look more fluid than it plays.

 

BTW I have played in a game where taking a combat action didn't end a PC's phase. It wasn't game breaking. Players had to rethink their tactics a bit. It became more like 3.x D&D which wasn't good or bad. It may be time to let that sacred cow go.

 

Acceleration in Hero only really matters in closed spaces or when making move by and move through maneuvers.

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I use the velocity rules as written... but in practice you can entirely ignore the velocity rules most of the time because of the clause allowing you to accelerate and decelerate in the same phase. The only reason to maintain velocity between phases is to take advantage of the optional Velocity Based DCV rules.

The most frequent example where velocity really matters is when you need to determine how much space you need to accelerate for a Move By/Through or Passing Strike style maneuver; and people going for that tactic usually take Combat Acceleration/Deceleration on the mode of movement they are using for that purpose. The next most common example being canceling a fall, which simply requires you have enough space to decelerate given the amount of flight you purchased.

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(because your phase originally was your frame in the comic book, one panel of action, frozen in time).

That's a good way of thinking of it, and just like in comics the characters are assumed to be moving in between panels. That's hardly unique to Champions/Hero of course, tho it's perhaps a little more obvious due to the nature of the SPD Chart.

 

While the rules in CC/FHC neither explicitly allow or prohibit doing so, I would probably allow a character to Hold a Partial Action.

Yes, that's explicitly permitted in the 6ed core rules, and has been the rule since at least 4ed. 

 

Personally, the acceleration/deceleration rules were too much bureaucracy for my group, we ignore them.

Same here. I think the only time I've ever used them has been with Vehicle chase scenes.

 

Technically their phase is whatever segment they take it in. That phase could be on Seg3,4,5 and yes they could move up to their max on Seg 5 and then move the same on seg 6.

I think technically semantically pedantically your Phase is whatever Segment you have an Action on based on your SPD; you can choose to Hold that Action until a different Segment, but you're Holding your Action, not your Phase. Tomayto-tomahto. :)

 

BTW I have played in a game where taking a combat action didn't end a PC's phase. It wasn't game breaking. Players had to rethink their tactics a bit. It became more like 3.x D&D which wasn't good or bad. It may be time to let that sacred cow go.

Yeah, I've allowed people to move after attacking for 30+ years and I don't think it's ever been a problem.

 

For one gun-heavy heroic campaign I ran, we had a house rule where if someone did a half or full move, and you had a readied gun you could essentially Abort to shoot them before they completed their move. It was basically an attempt to recognize that charging someone with a gun is generally a bad idea. It worked fine for the tenor of that particular game, but I've never felt the need to bring it back for any other campaigns.

 

The only other movement variation I ever tried was to break down characters' movement so that characters continued moving every Segment, but could only attack on their Phases. It was a total PITA, didn't add anything but complexity, and we ditched it after one session.

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I think technically semantically pedantically your Phase is whatever Segment you have an Action on based on your SPD; you can choose to Hold that Action until a different Segment, but you're Holding your Action, not your Phase. Tomayto-tomahto. :)

I try to communicate to new players that each turn is broken up into a number of action phases based on your SPD. You can act at any time within each of these action phases but you cannot save them up and act twice within a single phase (obviously I get onto aborting to defensive actions a bit later on...)

 

 

Doc

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I try to communicate to new players that each turn is broken up into a number of action phases based on your SPD. You can act at any time within each of these action phases but you cannot save them up and act twice within a single phase (obviously I get onto aborting to defensive actions a bit later on...)

That's a good way of describing it. I don't actually use the word Segment at all. "A Turn is 12 seconds long, and is broken up into 12 one-second Phases."

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I do think its worth bringing back the "-1 OCV for half move" penalty if you let people move after they attack.  I like the Savage Worlds approach: you can break your movement up however you want but if you move at all, its a small penalty to your skills and attacks that phase.

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I do think its worth bringing back the "-1 OCV for half move" penalty if you let people move after they attack.  I like the Savage Worlds approach: you can break your movement up however you want but if you move at all, its a small penalty to your skills and attacks that phase.

While that makes sense realistically, from a gamist & narrativist standpoint I'd much prefer to have characters moving around the battlefield rather than just standing still and punching/shooting each other, so I'd rather not discourage that. That's partly why I allow movement after attacking: too often players' first thoughts when their Phase comes up is to attack, and moving is an afterthought; I'd rather they move as an afterthought than not at all.

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My understanding of the rules as written, and I am poring through them just now trying to refine how I came to this understanding, is that your movement in a phase occurs within the segment you take that phase's action.

 

So, if you are SPD 4 with 8m running, your phases are on segments 3,6,9 and 12. On segment 3 you decide to half move and hit an opponent. That all happens in segment 3. If you decide to move 8m instead, then that too all happens in segment 3.

 

The SPD 6 opponent who decides to shoot you on segment 4 does not get to do so before you either punch him or run behind that wall 7m away.

 

Right?

 

Doc

No.

 

First lets assume that all characters have the same Dex and for some reason the Spd 6 character goes after the speed 4 character.

 

A speed 6 character goes on 2,4,6,8,10,12.  A speed 4 character goes on 3,6,9,12.  If a speed 3 character moves and attacks, on segment 3.  The speed 6 character can attack on segment 4.  Now the speed 3 character can do a move by or move through and finish their move behind some barrier or they can abort to do something defensive on segment 4 but the speed 6 character will get to act first.  In a turn the speed 6 character will have had their action on segment 2 which they can hold till the bottom of segment 3 or use their segment 4 action to attack.

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I think you misread my question.

 

It was basically saying that the SPD4 character moving on segment 3, and making a full move, gets to do that whole move is segment 3. He is not still moving in segment 4, allowing the SPD 6 character to shoot him before he gets to cover or gets close enough to deliver a punch.

 

Like I said, don't think we are disagreeing, but you might disagree. :-)

 

Doc

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There are things in Hero that you have to really tweak to work right, like an attack that hits someone then you teleport away, for example.  Or Nightcrawler's "bamf all over with someone causing them to pass out".  You end up with triggers and all sorts of odd things such as area effect, autofire, etc.  Letting people do something after attacking seems reasonable to me, but the game could use a solid "interrupt" function to pair with this.  A way to stop people from doing things.

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I think you misread my question.

 

It was basically saying that the SPD4 character moving on segment 3, and making a full move, gets to do that whole move is segment 3. He is not still moving in segment 4, allowing the SPD 6 character to shoot him before he gets to cover or gets close enough to deliver a punch.

 

Like I said, don't think we are disagreeing, but you might disagree. :-)

 

Doc

Yup, I misread the post.  However, while I do agree for the most part, the Spd 4 character still has an option.

 

See Snap Shot 6E2pg88.  Full phase maneuver, -1 OCV.  Lets you start from behind cover, fire, and return to cover on the next segment.  Hardly ever seen it used but it's there in the core system.  I am assuming you return to cover on your segment on 4, so if the Spd 4 character has a higher initiative, they can attack and get to cover before the Spd 6 can react.

 

Note also Blocks can alter when people can attack/respond.

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