Creating a Chamber

[Durzan Malakim]

Its pretty much cross-genre.  When the sci fi device digs a tunnel, it doesn't need to worry about shoring things up (or does it automatically).  The dirt is 'disintegrated' or used for fuel or something.  In magic, it just makes a tunnel, magicking away problems.  We're trying to simulate a game world here, not create reality on paper.

 

Tunneling is one of those powers where I personally have a hard time suspending my disbelief the more I think about it. The cognitive dissonance is just made worse when people use the default disintegration special effect as the basis of their builds, even though it is a perfectly legal build with the rules as written.

 

It just feels like someone is exploiting a technicality and then conveniently ignoring other technicalities that could be used against them such as:

• Will the tunnel collapse and if so when?
• Will you hit a dangerous obstacle?
• Will you need flight or climbing to tunnel vertically?

I suppose these are issues between GM and player though. Live by the technicality; die by the technicality.

[Lucius]

 

Bigger, Cheaper, more outrageous by an order of magnitude:

 

Big Hole, Munchkinized: (Total: 40 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost)

Growth (+15 STR, +5 CON, +5 PRE, +3 PD, +3 ED, +3 BODY, +6 STUN, +1m Reach, +12m Running, -6m KB, 101-800 kg, +2 to OCV to hit, +2 to PER Rolls to perceive character, 2-4m tall, 1-2m wide) (25 Active Points); Limited Power Does not add to characteristics (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/2), Limited Power only to make a bigger tunnel (-1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Instant (-1/2), Limited Power No reach. (-1/4), Limited Power No knockback resistance (-1/4), Limited Power "Extra Running" only usable as Tunneling (-0) (Real Cost: 3)

plus

Usable [As Tunneling] (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) for up to 12 Active Points of Running (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

In just one Turn, create a Tunnel that is 2 kilometers wide, 2 kilometers tall, and 3 kilometers long!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises is not responsible for personal injuries to characters resulting from tunnel collapse or to players from trying to convince someone to permit this power in their game.

[Beast]

SO growth could be used to create a lager tunnel from the start

Citation Provided Below:

 

Champions Complete 94

The definitions of Target [self Only], and Range [self] can be found on CC 44.

 

Champions Complete 97

 

Just putting AoE on Tunneling allows it to "affect all [self Only]s in an area" with a Range of [self]... In other words it does nothing by itself.

 

In order for Tunneling to affect any target other than [self] you need to use some form of Usable On Others (CC 119) to change the Target from [self Only] to [Target's DCV] and the Range from [self] to [No Range] (I.E. Your Natural Reach) ... Standard UBO restricts the Target to [One Willing Recipient], and Standard UAA restricts the Target to [One Unwilling Recipient]. Since Objects and Unconscious Characters are considered Unwilling Recipients of powers which don't benefit them, and I don't consider having chambers and corridors drilled into it beneficial to a mass of stone, you would need Usable As Attack in my campaign.

 

In addition... in order for Tunneling to be a legal target for any of the forms of the Ranged Modifier (CC 109, 112, or 113), it cannot have a Range of [self], you have to use some form of Usable By Other to change its Range to [No Range] first.

[Cantriped]

Usable [As Tunneling] (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) for up to 12 Active Points of Running (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

Usable As Tunneling (+1/4) isn't a legal modifier for Running because the modifier only allows the base Movement Power to mimic a less expensive Movement Power (CC 119), and 12m of Tunneling has a minimum of 14 Active Points versus 12m of Running's 12 Active Points (CC 83 & 94).

 

Also, Megascale only applies to a single aspect of the power it is applied to (such as the velocity of a Movement Power). So while the Tunnel would be 12km long, it would still only be roughly the user's size (~4m in Diameter).

 

 

SO growth could be used to create a lager tunnel from the start

Yes, and technically it is the most/only legal way to do so in CC/FHC short of having the appropriate Size Complication, or a Size characteristic like Vehicles do.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The rules don't really say, there is no definitive size of a hole.  Further while the rules seem to imply that you would use UAA to get the area effect, that isn't clear or certain, particularly in this case, since you aren't actually using the power to move anything other than yourself.  So, in the end its up to the GM.

[PhilFleischmann]

The fact that it is a principally a Movement Power is exactly why it needs UAA. The issue is with Targeting and Range. Tunneling's Target is "Self Only" and it's Range is "Self", and Area of Effect merely allows the power to affect every legal Target within the defined Area. Being able to Target every [self Only] within a 4m radius of a Range of [self] doesn't actually make the Tunnel larger than "roughly your size".

 

You need UAA in order to change Tunneling's Target to [unwilling Target's DCV] and its Range to [No Range] (i.e. Reach) so that when you apply Area of Effect the power grants every "unwilling target" (such as the molecules making up the surface of the medium to be tunneled through) within the defined Area Tunneling, and then forces them to use it at your direction.

 

Logic aside, Hero Designer supports my case. It will not allow you to place Area of Effect on Tunneling unless it already has some form of Usable On Others (such as UBO or UAA).

 

Rules as Written aside... if all a player wanted to do was make the tunnels left behind by their power as they moved larger, I would probably allow them to do so within reason as a +1/4 Advantage per doubling of the size of the tunnel as a house rule (but it wouldn't be called Area of Effect, most like it'd be called Larger Tunnel or something).

No.  The target is still "you", not anyone else.  Tunneling creates a tunnel, even though the Target of the power is not the ground/material tunneled through.  We're not trying to drag unwilling people into the tunnel with us, we're just trying to make a bigger tunnel.

[Lucius]

Usable As Tunneling (+1/4) isn't a legal modifier for Running because the modifier only allows the base Movement Power to mimic a less expensive Movement Power (CC 119), and 12m of Tunneling has a minimum of 14 Active Points versus 12m of Running's 12 Active Points (CC 83 & 94).

So I can't get 3 meters of Tunneling for 12 meters of Running? I'd have to check the rules but you're probably right about that.

 

 

Also, Megascale only applies to a single aspect of the power it is applied to (such as the velocity of a Movement Power). So while the Tunnel would be 12km long, it would still only be roughly the user's size (~4m in Diameter).

About this, however, you're overlooking that the Tunnel isn't getting its Megascale Diamaeter from the Naked Advantage. That's from the Megascale applied to Growth.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sarcasticaly asks, like that's better??

[Cantriped]

The rules don't really say, there is no definitive size of a hole.

CC/FHC explicitly states the size of the tunnel is relative to the size of the tunneler.

 

No.  The target is still "you", not anyone else.  Tunneling creates a tunnel, even though the Target of the power is not the ground/material tunneled through.  We're not trying to drag unwilling people into the tunnel with us, we're just trying to make a bigger tunnel.

RAW, there is no legal and appropriately priced method for simply increasing the size of the tunnel you create as you move. However, Like I said at the end of the post you quoted I would probably allow, as a house-rule, a player to use Area of Effect to define the tunnel size, or a custom Larger Tunnel advantage to increase the size of the tunnel by double per +1/4 in advantage value (precisely because having to put UAA Tunneling simply to make it a legal target for AoE, when all you want is a larger tunnel as you move, doesn't seam very fair).

 

About this, however, you're overlooking that the Tunnel isn't getting its Megascale Diamaeter from the Naked Advantage. That's from the Megascale applied to Growth.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sarcasticaly asks, like that's better??

You didn't apply Megascale to Growth, so no...  I'm overlooking anything.

But more importantly, Growth isn't a legal target for Megascale, which only applies to "Area-affecting powers; Powers that work at Range; [and] Movement Powers...". Further, there are only 3 legal forms of Megascale: Megarange, Megaarea, and Megamovement. None of which apply to tunnel size, which is a factor of the user's actual size (as determined by the character's Size Characteristic, level of Growth, or Size Complication), not the Range, Area, or Combat Velocity of the Tunneling Power.

 

Although I suppose if a GM allows you to take Area of Effect to define a larger Tunnel than your character size, than they should also allow you to take Megaarea to megascale the area of that tunnel. I would be disinclined to allow Megaarea on Larger Tunnel (see above)... but the Value of megaarea is usually pretty close to the cost of buying that large an area outright, so it doesn't really matter.

[Christopher R Taylor]

CC/FHC explicitly states the size of the tunnel is relative to the size of the tunneler.

 

 

Which is not a definitive size, its just a general concept.  There's no rule stating "a tunnel is .5m diameter wider than the height of the character using the power" for example.  Its up to the GM exactly how big the tunnel actually is, relative to the character.  Hence: there is no definitive size of the hole, its vague and abstracted, as it should be.

[Cantriped]

Which is not a definitive size, its just a general concept.  There's no rule stating "a tunnel is .5m diameter wider than the height of the character using the power" for example.  Its up to the GM exactly how big the tunnel actually is, relative to the character.  Hence: there is no definitive size of the hole, its vague and abstracted, as it should be.

I think you are using a slightly different definition of "Definitive" than I.

​I don't think the fact that Tunneling gives a relative metric makes it vague, or any less definitive. Although I admit it would be nice if it were more explicit, like "The tunnels diameter is equal to the character's height.", that wouldn't always be appropriate. I frequently see characters in anime that turn themselves into "drill-bits" when they tunnel, entering the ground feet first. In such cases the tunnel should only be as wide as they are wide, their height is irrelevant in that instance. 

[Lucius]

You didn't apply Megascale to Growth, so no...  I'm overlooking anything.

You're absolutely right. I seem to be the one overlooking something.

 

Big Hole, Munchkinized: (Total: 65 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost)

Growth (+15 STR, +5 CON, +5 PRE, +3 PD, +3 ED, +3 BODY, +6 STUN, +1m Reach, +12m Running, -6m KB, 101-800 kg, +2 to OCV to hit, +2 to PER Rolls to perceive character, 2-4m tall, 1-2m wide), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) (50 Active Points); Limited Power Does not add to characteristics (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/2), Limited Power only to make a bigger tunnel (-1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Instant (-1/2), Limited Power No reach. (-1/4), Limited Power No knockback resistance (-1/4), Limited Power "Extra Running" only usable as Tunneling (-0) (Real Cost: 7)

plus

Usable [As Tunneling] (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) for up to 12 Active Points of Running (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

Now it's there.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how we managed to overlook something as big as Megascale.

[Cantriped]

Growth still isn't a legal target for Megascale. It doesn't meet the "Applies To" conditions of Megascale, nor does it have a Range, Area, or Combat Velocity to affect. To make yourself bigger you have to buy more Growth. Of course, Colossal is 215 APs and only makes you 128m tall, so you'd have to make a custom Size Template 4 steps larger and divide it's total cost by 2.25 to determine the active point cost of that level of Growth.

 

If you really wanna be a Munchkin I'm sure it would be cheaper just to buy a Summon that creates a Size 26 Vehicle (Length 3,200m, Width & Height 1,600m, 140 STR; 36 BODY costs 130 CP) (Sell Back its Ground Movement and Swimming for +14 CP) with Megascale Tunneling (5km through 10 PD costs 50 CP) for a total of 166 CP.

 

Summon Munchkin Tunneler (166-point Vehicle), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (66 APs); Time-Limit (1 Turn; -2 1/2). Total Cost: 19 points.

[IndianaJoe3]

The palindromedary wonders how we managed to overlook something as big as Megascale.

 

Couldn't see the tunnel for the holes in the ground.

[dsatow]

So I ask Steve Long about some of the conditions on Tunneling.  This is his answer:

 

Steve Long

Decuple Millennial Master

Administrators

 

16,712 posts

Posted Yesterday, 06:29 AM

 

The rules for Tunneling state:  “Unless filled in by the character when made, a tunnel remains in existence until filled in, collapsed, or otherwise changed or destroyed. Tunneling works a lasting physical change on the environment, in much the same way that a Blast used against an inanimate object can inflict lasting destruction. Deactivating Tunneling doesn’t cause a character’s tunnels to vanish.”

 

I think that says all that needs to be said regarding the permanency of spaces created with Tunneling; to the extent any other rulings are needed, they’re left for the wise and insightful GM.

 

When a character Fills In the tunnel he creates, he fills it with the same substance he Tunneled through, so it has that substance’s PD/ED and BODY. If the GM wants to reduce any of those Characteristics on the grounds (NPI) that the material’s already been “weakened,” that’s up to him.

 

 

 

[Lucius]

Growth still isn't a legal target for Megascale.

Hm. I know Steve Long has described applying Megascale to Stretching as "Silly, but Legal." I don't know if he's ever ruled on the legality of Megascale Growth.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a silly but legal palindromedary tagline

[Cantriped]

Hm. I know Steve Long has described applying Megascale to Stretching as "Silly, but Legal." I don't know if he's ever ruled on the legality of Megascale Growth.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a silly but legal palindromedary tagline

Steve won't touch CC/FHC with a 3.3m Pole, but according to the most literal interpretation of its rules, Stretching isn't a legal target for Megascale Either. However, Stretching does have both Range and Movement like elements, so I could see myself allowing Megascale Stretching if it were reasonable as a house-rule.

[DasBroot]

The most legal but silly Mega-movement has to be swinging.

 

"I attach my hook to a satellite in low earth orbit and jump off the top of Mt Everest, I guess."

 

"HAAAAY YOOOO GUYYYYYSSS!"

 

Not that swimming is much better.

 

"Side effect: You created a tidal wave that destroyed Hong Kong. Again."

 

... ok, they're all pretty silly.

[Cantriped]

Swinging is just plain weird to start with. Realistically when you swing from a line you are basically performing a controlled fall. So unless you have some sort of rocket/retractable swing-line to accelerate you, your speed should be fairly consistent with the effects of gravity. Then there is the fact that the standard rules don't define Swing Distance at all.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Teleportation is really the only megascale movement that makes sense to me, even flight gets ridiculous.  Swinging, I loved a Spider-Man comic that had him go to the suburbs with all these tract houses on cul-de-sacs, and he couldn't find anything to swing from.  A lot of the time Spidey is shown swinging miles above a city.  What is he swinging from?  A blimp?

 

[bigdamnhero]

Spidey did like to swing from police/news helicopters now and then. But yeah.

 

Add Swinging to the list of May Not Be Appropriate For Non-Spandex Genres. Ditto for a lot of Megascale movement.

[Cantriped]

Attack on Titan has probably the best presentation and usage of Superheroic Swinging in a story that I've ever seen.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That was one thing in the Raimi Spider-man movies I really did like: he showed how swinging actually would work.  Up to that point I was a bit confused sometimes how Spidey could move like he does.

[PhilFleischmann]

Remember that the purchased Swinging distance is the distance traversed per phase, not necessarily per swing.

[DasBroot]

That just makes it worse when combined with Megascale!

 

"YYyyyyeeeaaaahhhhhhhHHHhhhH!" *bursts into flames seconds after jumping off the top of Mt Everest*

 

I wonder if the altitude you drop using Gliding would also be subject to the Megascale effect if you used Megascale gliding?  I'm thinking 'yes'.

[Ninja-Bear]

Citation Provided Below:

 

Champions Complete 94

The definitions of Target [self Only], and Range [self] can be found on CC 44.

 

Champions Complete 97

 

Just putting AoE on Tunneling allows it to "affect all [self Only]s in an area" with a Range of [self]... In other words it does nothing by itself.

 

In order for Tunneling to affect any target other than [self] you need to use some form of Usable On Others (CC 119) to change the Target from [self Only] to [Target's DCV] and the Range from [self] to [No Range] (I.E. Your Natural Reach) ... Standard UBO restricts the Target to [One Willing Recipient], and Standard UAA restricts the Target to [One Unwilling Recipient]. Since Objects and Unconscious Characters are considered Unwilling Recipients of powers which don't benefit them, and I don't consider having chambers and corridors drilled into it beneficial to a mass of stone, you would need Usable As Attack in my campaign.

 

In addition... in order for Tunneling to be a legal target for any of the forms of the Ranged Modifier (CC 109, 112, or 113), it cannot have a Range of [self], you have to use some form of Usable By Other to change its Range to [No Range] first.

Good catch. Helping my brother convert from 4th to 6th, I screwed up Resistant Protection because in 4th the spell was listed as force field which naturally has an END cost, resistant protection does not. Anyways in CC i am learning to double check.