Limitation cost?

[Doc Democracy]

OK, I am thinking of designing a character whose main role is backing up and enhancing others in the team.

 

To facilitate this I was wanting a bit more flexibility than normal. I was thinking of buying 12 Speed that would allow me to move on any segment but limiting it such that I can only act seven times in any turn.

 

I am not sure what limitation I would give it. +1/4? +1/2??

 

Would you allow it?

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Dropping from 12 phases to 7 is a loss of a bit more than a third, which I'd lean to being -1/2. It adds a serious toploading potential, though - move in Ph 12 at start of combat, then 7 consecutive actions for a total of eight. Then Abort to Dodge (and/or turtle-up defense powers) on Phase 8 to keep the bonus until next phase 1? Not necessarily your plan, but certainly a precedent that lays the groundwork for it.

 

With that in mind, I lean to not allowing it. It seems more reasonable to pay for the 7 SPD and rely on reserving to be able to act as needed in a support role.

[Doc Democracy]

So what do you think of fixing it as SPD 6 pattern with an extra phase somewhere? If bought as a limited SPD 12 then I am tending toward 1/2 limitation as it removes the ability to cluster and turtle.

 

It was where my dilemma was but I think this is the answer...

[dsatow]

I might allow allow it only if you could adequately explain why you need to have an alterable speed from a character concept/special effect form and not a rules mechanic reason.

[Doc Democracy]

I am building a speedster, we have had issues with SPD 12 characters. I was thinking that I dont need SPD 12, I just need that ability to squeeze in an "extra" action when it is necessary. That block to save my skin, that punch when the villain thinks I am out of options, that extra 20m of running that allows me to catch the DNPC rather than watch her crash to the ground.

 

My character is going to be support, enhancing the rest of the team rather than being a first liner. This gives him more flexibility in working with others, being able to do things "in the nick of time".

 

Doc

[JackValhalla]

Okay, I'm thinking of something that may be okay or may be too deep into "only at GM discretion" territory.

 

Multipower 30 active pts, Extra time 1 Turn, real cost 13 pts

Running 10" Trigger, real cost 1 pt

Martial Arts 20 pts worth of maneuvers, real cost 1 pt

 

Once per turn, defined as extreme need, you can use a combat maneuver or a burst of movement, outside your normal SPD progression. 

[dsatow]

I am building a speedster, we have had issues with SPD 12 characters. I was thinking that I dont need SPD 12, I just need that ability to squeeze in an "extra" action when it is necessary. That block to save my skin, that punch when the villain thinks I am out of options, that extra 20m of running that allows me to catch the DNPC rather than watch her crash to the ground.

 

My character is going to be support, enhancing the rest of the team rather than being a first liner. This gives him more flexibility in working with others, being able to do things "in the nick of time".

 

Doc

The next question is what problems did you have with the speed 12 character?  I can see a speed 12 character with 7 phases assignable at will having the same problems as a straight speed 12 character.

[Doc Democracy]

I think the big problem with the SPD 12 character was social rather than mechanical. The speedster got too much "screen time". When everyone else was in the SPD 4-6 window, the speedster was just acting too often. It was what brought home to me that SPD was much more about screen time than about moving and acting quickly.

 

The speedster player got to influence things 12 times a round whereas the team brick influenced things 4 times. Other players began to feel peripheral. SPD 7 does indeed have an element of that but nowhere near as much as SPD 12.

 

Doc

 

PS: I have moved away from the assignable at will to phases as if he was SPD 6 with one phase assignable at will.

[Hugh Neilson]

It seems like the desired mechanic is "I get reserved phases but I don't want to reserve phases", which I'm not sure is a desirable in-game effect. What if instead of "can only act in 7 phases", or "effective SPD 6 + 1 other phase", the mechanic were "must reserve at least 5 phases per turn"?

 

I'm not convinced that this cannot be adequately simulated with a high SPD and a lot of reserving of actions to be "proactively reactive".

[Lucius]

 

Give the character SPD 6, plus

 

Need Help?: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) +6 SPD (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 17)END cost 6

 

The character cannot just decide to use one of these "Extra" phases. Another player must ask for such a use, and the Game Operations Director must approve it. An unmodified +6 SPD could be used 6 times in a Turn, so if it's only used once or twice per Turn that justifies the -2 Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys 13 SPD

[Doc Democracy]

I'm not convinced that this cannot be adequately simulated with a high SPD and a lot of reserving of actions to be "proactively reactive".

By that reasoning it should be no more expensive to buy SPD 6+1 than SPD 7, I don't believe that is true. Even if it is mostly true it should probably cost the same as buying SPD 8 to gain SPD 7 where one phase was floating....

[Doc Democracy]

Give the character SPD 6, plusNeed Help?: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) +6 SPD (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 17)END cost 6The character cannot just decide to use one of these "Extra" phases. Another player must ask for such a use, and the Game Operations Director must approve it. An unmodified +6 SPD could be used 6 times in a Turn, so if it's only used once or twice per Turn that justifies the -2 Limitation.Lucius AlexanderThe palindromedary buys 13 SPD

I kinda like this, it puts my character's services on tap for people that pro-actively want it, avoiding the horrid situation where Doc Democracy gets to talk on every segment of every turn! :-)

[Ockham's Spoon]

I personally find messing around with SPD a headache, so I would buy this as a Trigger on whatever power he is planning to use, and let it reset once per turn.  If he can use it with multiple powers, the GM might allow a naked Trigger Advantage, Usable on Any single power up to X Active points (+¼).  Or just make him buy the Trigger on all appropriate powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Give the character SPD 6, plus

 

Need Help?: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) +6 SPD (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 17)END cost 6

I like this, but I wouldn't call it No Conscious Control, I'd give it "Only Once Per Turn" (-2 - or more).

[massey]

The problem is that it's hard to determine a good limitation value for this because we can't really predict how it will be used.  It takes the one facet of the game that many people have the most trouble wrapping their heads around (the Speed chart), and it requires them to calculate (in a vacuum with no playtesting) how abused it can be.  So the instinctual response is to just say "no".

 

So the first thing is, by buying a 12 Speed (only to go when you feel like it), you get the ability to go on Segment 1.  No other Speed can do that.  Speed 11 characters don't even go on 1 unless they hold their 12.  So you've got the ability to act on 12 and then act on 1 again.

 

Likewise you can take a Recovery, or recover from being Stunned, or let your maneuver bonuses reset, at any time you want.  That's pretty powerful.

 

Also you make it hard for opponents to tactically use the Speed chart in combat with you.  If I'm going to throw a haymaker at you that lands on segment 5, you might just decide to take an action on 5 and move out of the way.  If we're in any sort of martial-artsy combat where we are blocking and counter-striking and moving our combat levels around, you've got a great trump card with a free phase any time you want it.

 

Is this as powerful as just having a Speed 12 all the time?  No.  But it's clearly got benefits that people may not think about when they go to assign a limitation value. 

[Doc Democracy]

You have exactly why I struggled. It is obviously not worth 60 points (the cost of going from SPD6 to SPD12).

 

Obviously it is worth more than 10 points (cost of going from SPD6 to SPD7).

 

Now Hugh reckoned most of what could be achieved by my construct could be achieved through delays etc. (Which suggests the cost is closer to 10).

 

I am with you in that it could cause huge disruption and provide advantage, though it does not give the additional five action phases SPD 12 does. But I am trying to think what I would actually suggest. I am currently leaning toward a +2 limitation. That would mean the +1 would cost 20 points. I would not however use that as a precedent. The flexibility is greater as the base speed decreases so I think it is right a SPD 4 character would pay 27 points for the +1. That calculation doesn't work for SPDs above 8 though as the cost drops away below 10 per +1.

 

It is always going to be a judgement call, just thought I would canvas the collected wisdom...

 

:-)

[dsatow]

OK, as a GM I would be much more inclined with a Spd 6 + 1 assignable speed. To me that would be worth a -2 limitation.

 

The next part is how I would GM it.  Your GM might allow something different.

 

I would warn you that the bonus speed isn't a delay.  You would need to declare on your action segment whether you are going to use the phase.  Per RAW, you need to declare an action that you are holding to or a Dex value you are holding to.  I allow generic holds but they lose out if a generic held action is used to interrupt another action except for things that are abortable (blocks, dodge, dive for cover).  If you never trigger your held action, then you lose the phase which means that the +1 assignable speed would be lost if it was used as a delay and the delay is never taken.  If the bonus speed costs end, the end must be paid for when activated which would probably mean every phase 12.