Powers that add to existing damage.

[knasser2]

I want a power that lets a character ignite any weapon they pick up with Hellish flames (Lethal Energy Damage). I know how to build a HKA power. How do I cost it if it adds to an existing weapon that already does Lethal damage such as a sword? How do I add it to something that already does Normal damage such as a quarterstaff?

 

So for two examples: the character has a sword that already does 1d6(L). They also have a quarterstaff that does 4d6(N). I want to create a power that would let them pick up either and add 1d6 of lethal to it that is added alongside the rest when they hit. (Single hit roll - anything else will both add unnecessary dice rolls and also lead to weird results where they both hit and miss with their weapon).

 

Any help with how to build this, what limitations and what it costs gratefully received! Thank you!

 

K.

 

[Lucius]

 

I see three possiblities.

 

Use the Deadly Blow Talent.

 

Use the Aid Power with Set Effect to add +d6 Killing or +3d6 Normal damage.

 

The drawback to those first two is that they leave the damage as physical. There there is

 

Use a Naked Advantage: Attack vs Alternate Defense, with Defense defined as "lower of Resistant Physical or Resistant Energy Defense."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Chris Goodwin]

You could buy it as a 1d6 RKA, No Range, OIF Melee Weapon Of Opportunity, Trigger (when attacks with melee weapon).  

[Cantriped]

You can also purchase an RKA (Energy); Conditional (Only To Perform Combined Attacks With Weapons) and appropriate procedural modifiers (such as Usable By Other, or Extra Time (Only To Warm Up).

 

Sometimes people also use the rules for building a Damage Shield (RKA, Constant, Uncontrolled, AoE (Surface)) to build such effects, the Damage Shield automatically damages anybody struck by the weapon (although depending on your GM they might declare it also damages the wielder as they are also touching part of the surface).

 

There are lots of potential ways to represent this concept. However the mechanics of them aren't generally very efficient one because (unlike in D&D) they usually involve splitting the Damage across two separate defenses (Physical and Energy Defense) which most characters have equal amounts of.

[Hyper-Man]

Just build the HKA vs. Energy with an OIF focus of opportunity Limitation.

 

HM

[knasser2]

You can also purchase an RKA (Energy); Conditional (Only To Perform Combined Attacks With Weapons) and appropriate procedural modifiers (such as Usable By Other, or Extra Time (Only To Warm Up).

 

Sometimes people also use the rules for building a Damage Shield (RKA, Constant, Uncontrolled, AoE (Surface)) to build such effects, the Damage Shield automatically damages anybody struck by the weapon (although depending on your GM they might declare it also damages the wielder as they are also touching part of the surface).

 

There are lots of potential ways to represent this concept. However the mechanics of them aren't generally very efficient one because (unlike in D&D) they usually involve splitting the Damage across two separate defenses (Physical and Energy Defense) which most characters have equal amounts of.

 

In my game, Energy Defence is much harder to get hold of than Physical Defence. Everything in my game is done by defined class levels and lists of abilities you can choose from. One of the big advantages of the class that gives this ability is that it provides ways to add Energy damage so whilst the Fighter is wailing uselessly on the knight's plate armour, the wizard can zap her with a lightning bolt. It's all a bit Rock, Paper, Scissors by design.

 

But it's still a valid point that 2d6 and 1d6 are not as good as 3d6. However, it's less of a concern than you might think in my game.

 

What sort of value should I put on the Conditional Limitation? I definitely don't want to add a whole separate Hit Roll either which probably throws the maths out.

 

If I went with the Damage Shield approach (I am the GM so I hearby approve it not affecting to the subject) would it be something like this?

 

 

15CP    HKA 1d6 Energy
    -½    Linked (to Greater Power)
   +¼    Area of Effect (Personal Surface)
   -½    No Range
===================================
                                                              9 CP

 

I used the Electric Field example, 6E1,p385.

 

This sort of does what I want, I guess. It seems a bit wonky but I guess it makes sense. Just wasn't what I was expecting.

[Lucius]

 

It also makes a difference if you want to be able to hand the weapon off to someone else to use, and especially if you want to be able to make more than one at a time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a flaming palindromedary

[knasser2]

OIF?

 

Just build the HKA vs. Energy with an OIF focus of opportunity Limitation.

 

HM

 

 

You could buy it as a 1d6 RKA, No Range, OIF Melee Weapon Of Opportunity, Trigger (when attacks with melee weapon).  

 

So essentially like this?

 

 

15CP    HKA 1d6 Energy
      -1   Obvious Accessible Focus
============================
      8CP

 

Note, I went with Accessible because it seems to me that a weapon is something that opponents can disarm the character of.

 

Are there any concerns with this that the character is essentially getting to do two lots of damage with one Attack roll? Is that factored in? I suppose it's not different to the character having a power that just does 2d6 and doesn't need a weapon...

 

Thanks for all replies, btw! All appreciated!

[knasser2]

It also makes a difference if you want to be able to hand the weapon off to someone else to use, and especially if you want to be able to make more than one at a time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a flaming palindromedary

 

Definitely no to the first. If they drop it, it goes out., I suppose theoretically yes, to the second if they were a dual-wielder. I guess it would balance because now they'd be adding the extra endurane cost to their melee attack twice., And absolutely yes to Flaming Palindromedaries. That last one is definitely being added to my bestiary. It will surprise them if nothing else!

[Cantriped]

In my game, Energy Defence is much harder to get hold of than Physical Defence. Everything in my game is done by defined class levels and lists of abilities you can choose from. One of the big advantages of the class that gives this ability is that it provides ways to add Energy damage so whilst the Fighter is wailing uselessly on the knight's plate armour, the wizard can zap her with a lightning bolt. It's all a bit Rock, Paper, Scissors by design.

Your campaign is fairly unusual in those regards. By default Armor provides equal amounts of rPD and rED. Defining access to game elements by a class & level system is essentially heresy in Fantasy Hero.

 

Regarding your damage shield example:

It wouldn't be linked, because that requires you define what specific​ power you're linking it too (such as Joe's Rusty Broadsword, not any other broadsword, or dagger, or arrow, etc). Also you want to use RKA instead of HKA, because otherwise it lets players add their STR to damage twice. So an Example using the Damage Shield Method:

 

Hellfire Rune:  ​RKA 1d6 (Energy), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Half END (+1/4), Area of Effect (2m Surface; +1/4) (37 APs); Conditional (Can Only Be Applied To Metal Weapons; -1/2). Total Cost: 25 points.

Note: This "spell" can be cast on anyone's weapon, and can be cast multiple times, but you pay 1 END in advance per phase you want each casting of the spell to last (rounding works very well in the power's favor here).

 

OIF?

Obvious Inaccessible Focus; it is the value basis used to represent "Foci of Opportunity", or needing a class of common objects instead of a specific object to use your power. For example, a character that can hurl any pencil with deadly force would have an RKA with OIF (Pencils of Opportunity). The reason that it takes Inaccessible is that ostensibly taking the power away is harder than simply disarming them once (they can just pick up another pencil).

 

I prefer Inobvious Accessible for Foci of Opportunity (which has the same value so it is just a matter of semantics), on the grounds that you can still be disarmed normally, but that it isn't obvious that your power can be used with any old pencil (as opposed to that one pencil).

[Cantriped]

 

Are there any concerns with this that the character is essentially getting to do two lots of damage with one Attack roll? Is that factored in?

Not having to make two Attack Rolls isn't a problem. Characters can already inherently do that via the rules for Combined Attacks (assuming they can use both powers at once), that you are combining a weapon attack with a magical effect is entirely irrelevant. It isn't really advantageous or disadvantageous to combine the attacks, because regardless of how you do it, if the first Attack roll fails, all the subsequent ones would have failed too (because Multiple Attack and Autofire are cruel that way), and you still spend all the END/Charges.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just build the HKA vs. Energy with an OIF focus of opportunity Limitation.

 

HM

That's what came to my mind. The target gets to apply the defenses to it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Cantriped HKA can take the no STR bonus limitation.

[Cantriped]

Yes, and the two are basically the same, No STR HKAs and No Range RKAs that is; yet for whatever reason the latter is what is almost always used for such builds. Also the text I was replying too listed an HKA with No Range...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Damage Shield works, I like it for the side effect it gives.  A damage shield flaming sword you can cook s'mores over.

[Hyper-Man]

Your campaign is fairly unusual in those regards. By default Armor provides equal amounts of rPD and rED. Defining access to game elements by a class & level system is essentially heresy in Fantasy Hero.

 

Regarding your damage shield example:

It wouldn't be linked, because that requires you define what specific​ power you're linking it too (such as Joe's Rusty Broadsword, not any other broadsword, or dagger, or arrow, etc). Also you want to use RKA instead of HKA, because otherwise it lets players add their STR to damage twice. So an Example using the Damage Shield Method:

 

Hellfire Rune:  ​RKA 1d6 (Energy), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Half END (+1/4), Area of Effect (2m Surface; +1/4) (37 APs); Conditional (Can Only Be Applied To Metal Weapons; -1/2). Total Cost: 25 points.

Note: This "spell" can be cast on anyone's weapon, and can be cast multiple times, but you pay 1 END in advance per phase you want each casting of the spell to last (rounding works very well in the power's favor here).

 

Obvious Inaccessible Focus; it is the value basis used to represent "Foci of Opportunity", or needing a class of common objects instead of a specific object to use your power. For example, a character that can hurl any pencil with deadly force would have an RKA with OIF (Pencils of Opportunity). The reason that it takes Inaccessible is that ostensibly taking the power away is harder than simply disarming them once (they can just pick up another pencil).

 

I prefer Inobvious Accessible for Foci of Opportunity (which has the same value so it is just a matter of semantics), on the grounds that you can still be disarmed normally, but that it isn't obvious that your power can be used with any old pencil (as opposed to that one pencil).

 

This would need some form of UBO to work as described (I recommend researching the rules for Differing Modifiers).  As built, only the owner of the "spell" could use it. 

 

HM

[Cantriped]

The Hellfire Rune doesn't need Usable By Others to function as noted.

You aren't granting the beneficiary the ability to place Hellfire Runes on their weapons. As far as the rules are concerned you are using an Attack Power on a legal target (a metal weapon with an area less than 2m) within range (150m) with an Uncontrolled duration dependent upon the amount of END expended, that causes damage to anyone who touches the designated surface. That somebody (anybody) can then pick up the target object and use it as a weapon while simultaneously delivering the effect of the Damage Shield on hit is completely irrelevant.

 

What you do need however is GM Fiat (or Independent Personal Immunity to Hellfire Rune​ which is​ Usable By Others) to allow a person to hold part of the target object without taking damage on every one of the Caster's phases (because otherwise even the hilt of a sword it part of the same surface as its blade, and therefore covered by the Damage Shield).

[Cantriped]

For shits and giggles; here is the Granted version:

 

​Hellfire Rune II:  Grant ​Hellfire Strike (see below), Usable Simultaneously (Up To 8 Recipients, Standard Range (100m); +1 1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (30 APs); Costs Half END (-1/4). Total Cost: 24 points.

Note:  As before, this Power costs the Grantor 1 END per Phase in advance, and remains in effect until all of the END is exhausted. Unlike before, this power is limited to 8 Recipients, and I would allow a single character to be granted this power multiple times, counting each weapon affected as a separate recipient.

 

Hellfire Strike:​  1d6 HKA (Energy), Zero END (+1/2) (22 APs); No STR Bonus (-1/2), OIF (Metal Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Linked (Metal Weapon of Opportunity; -1/4). Value:  10 points.

Note: Normally Linked requires to define the power it is linked to when purchased, but since the target is being granted the power, I think it is reasonable to define the Link-Target when the power is granted instead.

[knasser2]

Your campaign is fairly unusual in those regards. By default Armor provides equal amounts of rPD and rED. Defining access to game elements by a class & level system is essentially heresy in Fantasy Hero.

Well for Armour I am using a suggestion in Fantasy Hero that it only has half-effect against Energy Damage. This adds realism and tactical depth, imo. And the class / level is something very much wanted by me as GM. I find Hero very complex as is. Having players run loose through the rules system would create an unmanageable scenario for me. Additionally, the reduced choice adds depth to the game. Warlocks fight in one way, Fighters another... It doesn't all merge into one.

 

Sure, it flies against the design intent of "do anything", but I find my way easier to play and more fun. I can invite a friend round to try something called a "role-playing game" and let them choose to be a level one Druid that can turn into a bear. I can't invite them round and say "hey, here are two 400 page rule books, make a character."

 

I picked up Hero as a drop-in replacement for D&D because D&D 5e has numerous things I don't like and is balanced like a drunken hippo. The cost, of course, is the vastly greater complexity. By creating classes and levels, I get to have my cake and eat it. (For some considerable effort on the GM's part, anyway).

 

Regarding your damage shield example:

It wouldn't be linked, because that requires you define what specific​ power you're linking it too (such as Joe's Rusty Broadsword, not any other broadsword, or dagger, or arrow, etc). Also you want to use RKA instead of HKA, because otherwise it lets players add their STR to damage twice. So an Example using the Damage Shield Method:

 

Hellfire Rune:  ​RKA 1d6 (Energy), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Half END (+1/4), Area of Effect (2m Surface; +1/4) (37 APs); Conditional (Can Only Be Applied To Metal Weapons; -1/2). Total Cost: 25 points.

Note: This "spell" can be cast on anyone's weapon, and can be cast multiple times, but you pay 1 END in advance per phase you want each casting of the spell to last (rounding works very well in the power's favor here).

 

Obvious Inaccessible Focus; it is the value basis used to represent "Foci of Opportunity", or needing a class of common objects instead of a specific object to use your power. For example, a character that can hurl any pencil with deadly force would have an RKA with OIF (Pencils of Opportunity). The reason that it takes Inaccessible is that ostensibly taking the power away is harder than simply disarming them once (they can just pick up another pencil).

 

I prefer Inobvious Accessible for Foci of Opportunity (which has the same value so it is just a matter of semantics), on the grounds that you can still be disarmed normally, but that it isn't obvious that your power can be used with any old pencil (as opposed to that one pencil).

 

Okay. I definitely do not want the power to function for anyone else. It represents the warlock channelling their power through the weapon the hold. I also want it to function for any weapon, not just metal ones. So yes, it burns everyone that is struck by it yet doesn't consume the quarterstaff that is on fire.

 

I like "Pencil of Opportunity". John Wick would approve. However, I'm still uncertain about the weapon being "Inaccessible". If someone disarms the warlock (quite possible), then they've lost access. The PCs are not typically walking around loaded with many weapons. For example, this character normally carries a quarterstaff and a knife. They could draw their knife but they'd hate not being able to use the power with the quarterstaff which does more damage. I guarantee the first thing they'd be trying to do would be to pick up their quarterstaff again! So wouldn't all this make the focus Accessible?

 

This would need some form of UBO to work as described (I recommend researching the rules for Differing Modifiers).  As built, only the owner of the "spell" could use it. 

 

HM

Thanks - it's good to know this stuff for learning purposes, but in this case Cantriped is correct - I actually don't want it to be useable by others. The only reason this is being done as a "Damage Shield" is because this is how people are suggesting I do it. The in-game fluff is that the character channels magical power out through the weapon they hold to burn those they strike.

[knasser2]

So does the basic HKA with OAF that I did not work? I appreciate the Damage Shield explanations and people seem to be suggesting that's the way to go, but I'm unclear if there's anything wrong with the simple HKA version I did above.

[Ninja-Bear]

So does the basic HKA with OAF that I did not work? I appreciate the Damage Shield explanations and people seem to be suggesting that's the way to go, but I'm unclear if there's anything wrong with the simple HKA version I did above.

Ok the only problem is that this is a separate attacks power. Usually you can't fire off two attack powers in same phase. That is why one suggestion is trigger adavantage on the power. Then it will work when the base power works. You know you could just on variable Sfx adavatge and that can change the nature of the attack from physical to energy. Since armor protects less, you are getting a bump in damage. P.s. I like that rule.

[NuSoardGraphite]

So does the basic HKA with OAF that I did not work? I appreciate the Damage Shield explanations and people seem to be suggesting that's the way to go, but I'm unclear if there's anything wrong with the simple HKA version I did above.

OAF works. You dont need the damage shield. Its just a lot of people are stuck on the idea of damage shield being an elemental aura surrounding something so tend to use that to represent an elementally wreathed weapon. Its not necessary though.

[Ninja-Bear]

D'oh why not just buy Aid? You can also put on variable effect (iirc) so it can affect either HKA or HA.

 

I would also buy the fade rate down to say 5 mins. Most combat doesn't take that long so you don't have to worry about fade rate during the game.

[Cantriped]

Well for Armour I am using a suggestion in Fantasy Hero that it only has half-effect against Energy Damage. This adds realism and tactical depth, imo. And the class / level is something very much wanted by me as GM. I find Hero very complex as is. Having players run loose through the rules system would create an unmanageable scenario for me. Additionally, the reduced choice adds depth to the game. Warlocks fight in one way, Fighters another... It doesn't all merge into one.

 

Sure, it flies against the design intent of "do anything", but I find my way easier to play and more fun. I can invite a friend round to try something called a "role-playing game" and let them choose to be a level one Druid that can turn into a bear. I can't invite them round and say "hey, here are two 400 page rule books, make a character."

I'm sorry, I wasn't attempting to criticize your GMing style. I was simply commenting that it is unusual, so many of our preconceptions will be inapplicable to your specific case.

 

 

Okay. I definitely do not want the power to function for anyone else. It represents the warlock channelling their power through the weapon the hold. I also want it to function for any weapon, not just metal ones. So yes, it burns everyone that is struck by it yet doesn't consume the quarterstaff that is on fire.

...

Thanks - it's good to know this stuff for learning purposes, but in this case Cantriped is correct - I actually don't want it to be useable by others. The only reason this is being done as a "Damage Shield" is because this is how people are suggesting I do it. The in-game fluff is that the character channels magical power out through the weapon they hold to burn those they strike.

If the goal is to create a "Warlock Spell" that allows them, and only them, to add Hellfire Damage to their strike; you can use a much simpler construct to do so. For example:

Hellfire Strike II​:  HKA 1d6 (Energy) (15 APs); No STR Bonus (-1/2), OIF (Melee Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Conditional (Only To Make Combined Attacks With A Melee Weapon of Opportunity; -1/4). Total Cost:  7 points.

Note:​ If you want this power to apply to ranged weapons too, change the base power to RKA, remove No STR Bonus, and remove the term "Melee" from both OIF and Conditional. The cost will go up to 8 points, and its maximum range will be 150m (if an arrow flew further than that, it would go out before hitting the target. Either way the power costs 1 END per strike.

 

I like "Pencil of Opportunity". John Wick would approve. However, I'm still uncertain about the weapon being "Inaccessible". If someone disarms the warlock (quite possible), then they've lost access. The PCs are not typically walking around loaded with many weapons. For example, this character normally carries a quarterstaff and a knife. They could draw their knife but they'd hate not being able to use the power with the quarterstaff which does more damage. I guarantee the first thing they'd be trying to do would be to pick up their quarterstaff again! So wouldn't all this make the focus Accessible?

Foci of Opportunity are treated like Accessible Foci for the purpose of being grabbed or disarmed (which is why I prefer IAF to OIF for them). What is important is that the value is reduced because the power can be used with any of a class of objects instead of just one particular object. For example, you can take away one of Pencilman's #2 Pencils fairly easily. However, pencils are so common he can carry dozens of them on his person, or go buy more if he runs out; effectively making it much harder to deprive him of his focus for any length of time. Depending on the location of the battle (such as a department or office supply store), he might even find one or more  replacement Foci in the environment.

The gist being that having to choose between your dagger or stave is less of a limitation than only being able to use your stave, but it is still a limitation because both could be taken away or even destroyed (depriving the character of the ability to use their power).

[knasser2]

I'm sorry, I wasn't attempting to criticize your GMing style. I was simply commenting that it is unusual, so many of our preconceptions will be inapplicable to your specific case.

 

 

If the goal is to create a "Warlock Spell" that allows them, and only them, to add Hellfire Damage to their strike; you can use a much simpler construct to do so. For example:

Hellfire Strike II​:  HKA 1d6 (Energy) (15 APs); No STR Bonus (-1/2), OIF (Melee Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Conditional (Only To Make Combined Attacks With A Melee Weapon of Opportunity; -1/4). Total Cost:  7 points.

Note:​ If you want this power to apply to ranged weapons too, change the base power to RKA, remove No STR Bonus, and remove the term "Melee" from both OIF and Conditional. The cost will go up to 8 points, and its maximum range will be 150m (if an arrow flew further than that, it would go out before hitting the target. Either way the power costs 1 END per strike.

 

Foci of Opportunity are treated like Accessible Foci for the purpose of being grabbed or disarmed (which is why I prefer IAF to OIF for them). What is important is that the value is reduced because the power can be used with any of a class of objects instead of just one particular object. For example, you can take away one of Pencilman's #2 Pencils fairly easily. However, pencils are so common he can carry dozens of them on his person, or go buy more if he runs out; effectively making it much harder to deprive him of his focus for any length of time. Depending on the location of the battle (such as a department or office supply store), he might even find one or more  replacement Foci in the environment.

The gist being that having to choose between your dagger or stave is less of a limitation than only being able to use your stave, but it is still a limitation because both could be taken away or even destroyed (depriving the character of the ability to use their power).

 

Thanks for all that. Very helpful, very complete.

 

And no worries about the side-discussion on classes and levels. I didn't take it as a criticism and it is very different to the general Hero ethos. I'm just used to people saying it so I tend to be able to blast out a response pretty quickly. I actually am finding it tremendously positive to do classes and levels in Hero. I've worked out a rough path of where characters CV's should be at different levels (with adjustments for whether they are combat focused classes or not and whether they favour attack of defence). I've created four tiers of powers that you get at different levels (Minor, Lesser, Greater, Major) and create class related powers that are thematically appropriate. It actually lets me subtly add the flavour to my game that I want which is a sort of half-way house between Warhammer Fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons. By crafting the powers myself I can ensure my game feels more like A Wizard of Earthsea than a Tom Holt novel, etc. Plus I can do nice things with the tiers of power levels creating pre-requisite paths. So Greater Familiar follows on from Lesser Familiar and leads to characters (PC and NPC) whose abilities tie together nicely. I should post up a few pages from my rule book sometime. I think it would be worth any number of posts about "I'm doing this.".