Science Fantasy

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure but like a lot of quantum physics and high end astrophysics right now, there's a point at which a scientific theory becomes just goofy guesswork.

[zslane]

It would take a lot of study and probably one or two Newton/Einstein-like geniuses to intuit a theory that fit the observed phenomena. The scientific model would continually evolve over time, competing theories would emerge, etc. It is important to understand that science accepts as axiomatic that anything that can be observed/measured (consistently) can be studied and, ultimately, explained. Even if it appears to violate existing models of the universe. After all, a total solar eclipse can still be studied by science even though it only occurs once every 18 months, and only lasts a few minutes.

 

If something can't be observed/measured under consistent, controllable conditions, then the phenomena would most likely be categorized as improperly observed/measured and dismissed as a fluke (like Cold Fusion).

 

I would also point out that your scenario begs the question; it postulates a fact, and then denies it in the same breath. If magic users can consciously violate physics with deliberate intent, then their methods can be studied. On the other hand, if their methods can't be studied, then they aren't actually doing (or capable of doing) what they claim.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If magic users can consciously violate physics with deliberate intent, then their methods can be studied.

 

 

Not necessarily.  You're taking the statement that all things can be observed and explained, which may not be the case.  If that isn't true, then the rest follows.  

 

You can study Dr Strange's hand gestures and see the effects, but that doesn't mean you can comprehend why or how or what is going on.  If its irreproducible except for specific people with the gift of magical ability, and its doing things which cannot be done (something out of nothing, perpetual energy, destroying energy, etc) then science is going to reach a point where they have to go "uh, I have no idea how this works, it must be dealing with a realm of reality where science does not apply" or just start making crap up so they don't have to shift their worldview.

 

This could easily become a cultural clash, even wars, where some groups refuse to work with others, or even become violent.

[zslane]

Well, like I said, you're setting up a scenario which states a priori that the magical phenomena do not obey any known laws of physics (including basic thermodynamics, causality, etc.) as if that were possible and also not observable, measurable, and studyable. I perceive an inherent contradiction in your scenario and so reject your basic premise.

 

But even if I take the premise at face value, I guarantee that scientists would continue to pursue a working model of those phenomena until the heat death of the universe, even if they never come to realize their efforts are ultimately in vain.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 I guarantee that scientists would continue to pursue a working model of those phenomena until the heat death of the universe, even if they never come to realize their efforts are ultimately in vain.

 

 

Which would be interesting as a setting conflict, as the scientists and magicians clash and argue.

 

I perceive an inherent contradiction in your scenario and so reject your basic premise.

 

 

no more so than assuming the opposite, where you presume all is provable and knowable through science and nothing can possibly extend beyond it.  The very existence of magic, for it to be magical, requires it to break those laws or its not magic, its just another science.  Magic by its definition has to be something other than science or it ceases to be magical.

 

Clark's law isn't stating that extremely advanced tech actually is magical, only that it seems to be so to the unknowing, because of its astounding abilities.

[tiger]

Working on a campaign supplement that is across of FH and SH, best of both worlds

[zslane]

no more so than assuming the opposite, where you presume all is provable and knowable through science and nothing can possibly extend beyond it.  The very existence of magic, for it to be magical, requires it to break those laws or its not magic, its just another science.  Magic by its definition has to be something other than science or it ceases to be magical.

 

Clark's law isn't stating that extremely advanced tech actually is magical, only that it seems to be so to the unknowing, because of its astounding abilities.

 

I understand what you're saying.

 

Unfortunately, one can not simply unwrite the physical laws of the universe without replacing them with something equally stable. Otherwise your characters can't survive a day and expect gravity to work or food to sustain them or time to make things change, grow, and evolve (and otherwise provide causality and the commonly understood principles of past-present-future). These are all things which work because the universe is essentially a big machine that functions according to rules (even if not all of them are well understood).

 

If your magic also conforms to rules, then science can deduce them simply by observation, just as the adept uses essentially the same methods to learn to cast/control that magic. If your magic does not conform to rules, then all you have is a universe that makes no sense. I maintain that doesn't exist except within the fictional realms of incompetent fantasy and science fiction authors.

[Cantriped]

I much prefer Agatha Heterodynes "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indestinguishable from science!"

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081205#.WTtVibpFx_w

[Christopher R Taylor]

If your magic does not conform to rules, then all you have is a universe that makes no sense.

 

 

Well, that or it makes sense at a different level than we currently understand, that there's a metaphysical level things work at as well as physical, of which magic is a part.  Kind of like how math describes part of the world, and art another.  Related in some ways, but distinct and each has its own place.

[Spence]

Which would be interesting as a setting conflict, as the scientists and magicians clash and argue.

 

Or go to war.  The Mageworlds series by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald is a great series about a galaxy that had a war between the two civilizations and science won.  Great Space Opera/Science Fantasy.

[zslane]

Well, that or it makes sense at a different level than we currently understand, that there's a metaphysical level things work at as well as physical, of which magic is a part.  Kind of like how math describes part of the world, and art another.  Related in some ways, but distinct and each has its own place.

 

Regardless of how you wish to define this fictional (and I claim, non-sensical) universe, scientists would still strive to study it and explain it. It is no different than the real world. Some scientists, misguided though they may be, try to study "paranormal" phenomena in the real world. The fact that they obtain no usable results doesn't stop them from the pursuit. I maintain that would be as true in a world where such phenomena were real as it is in our own.

[PhilFleischmann]

*cough* Jedi *cough*

Weirding Way / The Voice / Spice Prescience from Dune

Bejoran "prophets" and "mystic orbs" from DS9

Charlie X / Q / etc.

Doctor Strange & Thor live in the same world as Iron Man and the Fantastic Four and Henry Pym.

Zatana & Doctor Fate & Captain Marvel live in the same world as Batman and Superman and Steel.

 

It's not easy to find an extensive sci-fi setting that doesn't eventually throw in some magic.

[JohnBear]

Author: Melissa Scott

Books: The Silence Leigh Trilogy ( Five-Twelfths of Heaven, Silence in Solitude, The Empress of Earth)

 

Highly recommend.