You can burn fast, but I can burn faster...?

[knasser2]

Hi! Hopefully a simple one.

 

I'm looking at the fire, acid, et al. rules (6E2,p147) and I can't find anything that explicitly states when you take damage from a harmful environment but the acid damage example seems to imply that a character takes damage on each of their phases. However, surely this must be wrong as it results in the following:

 

Nimblus the Nimble, Elven Rogue, has Speed 4.

Chunketta the Dwarven Warrior Maiden has Speed 2.

 

Both are trapped in a burning room. Numblus the Nimble burns to death twice as quickly as Chunketta, (we'll assume the unlikely chance that rED and BODY are the same for both).

 

As this doesn't make sense, I feel I must have gone wrong somewhere but I can't find anything saying "Environmental damage occurs at the end of the Turn" or similar anywhere.

 

Thanks for any answers!

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't deal this kind of environmental damage by character phases, I assign the damage a speed based on its intensity and circumstances: it has speed 4, so everyone in the room takes x damage every 3 segments.  Sometimes it makes sense to be on character phases -- inhaled gasses, for instance.  But fire, its outside your metabolism.

[knasser2]

I don't deal this kind of environmental damage by character phases, I assign the damage a speed based on its intensity and circumstances: it has speed 4, so everyone in the room takes x damage every 3 segments.  Sometimes it makes sense to be on character phases -- inhaled gasses, for instance.  But fire, its outside your metabolism.

 

Thanks. That sounds sensible. Actually it allows for some considerable nuance in having environmental effects that run fast or slow  - for example, navigating through some ice caves where movement sets off flurries of falling ice shards (high Speed) or the booming of some terrible titanic bell that feels like a body blow (low Speed). I like it. But is this a rule from the book anywhere or just something you came up with? Because I've been unable to find a RAW answer to this.

[Christopher R Taylor]

To the best of my knowledge, the rules never officially state when and how fast environmental effects take place (other than "when encountered" like touching a hot coal).

[knasser2]

To the best of my knowledge, the rules never officially state when and how fast environmental effects take place (other than "when encountered" like touching a hot coal).

 

Thanks. That would explain why I couldn't find it. For a rule-system that comes in two 400 page volumes, that sounds like an amazing oversight.

[Brian Stanfield]

Steve Long answered a similar question in the rules forum: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95584-environmental-fire-damage-rate/

 

He says every segment for a fire, but other environmental effects aren't discussed.

[knasser2]

Steve Long answered a similar question in the rules form: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95584-environmental-fire-damage-rate/

 

He says every segment for a fire, but other environmental effects aren't discussed.

 

Thanks. I didn't spot that previous thread. I'm going to maintain that if that's official rules then it's pretty bonkers. I can't imagine it flying with my players.

[Doc Democracy]

Thanks. I didn't spot that previous thread. I'm going to maintain that if that's official rules then it's pretty bonkers. I can't imagine it flying with my players.

I don't understand why you think it is bonkers. The environment does not stop dealing damage. It does not have a SPD characteristic and so the smallest quantum of time is 1 segment. It definitely makes sense. It might be harsh but it is not unfair if the damage rule is known ahead of time.

 

Personally, I have been looking at having a campaign Speed. So all characters and the environment would begin on the same SPD and characters could buy their SPD up and down from that point. There is a thread on the 6th Edition where I have been discussing this. Would that make more sense to you?

(http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95652-campaign-settings-speed/)

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Bearing in mind that the per segment damage is also the "per meter moved through the fire", this does not seem wholly unreasonable. You are effectively taking the damage from moving 6 meters per phase if you have a 2 SPD.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, lets take some examples of damage from the book, fires only:

 

Lantern, flaming Oil 1 body to d6+1 Killing

Molten metal 4d6 k

Burning oil 2-4d6 k

Superheated Steam 2-3d6 k

wood or house fire: 1 body to 2d6 killing

 

So if you fall into a campfire, you're taking minimum 1 body per second, burned to a crisp by the end of the turn assuming minimum damage.  A character has a 3-4 speed on average for most games (probably 4-5 in superheroic but you'll ignore that kind of damage at the superhero level anyway), so that means they take 3 increments of damage minimum before moving again.  Running through a burning area means you take 3-4 hits of up to 2d6 killing?  That seems excessive to me.

 

You either need to really reduce the damage to its minimum, which makes people just shrug it off with the least level of protection, or you gotta slow the increments of damage.

[massey]

Having fallen into a campfire before (I was drunk), I didn't take anywhere near 7 Body.  And drunk me does not have a particularly high Speed.  I am still posting here, so obviously I didn't die.  I don't think I took damage per segment.

 

This is clearly one of those things that is for GMs to adjudicate.  I still think associating Speed and Phases with a particular amount of time does a disservice to gameplay.  A Phase should be thought of as a panel in a comic book.  It's when you get to do your thing, however long that would take in real life (hello, soliloquy).  It isn't one second.

 

In that regard, for somebody who is running around in a fiery building, getting multiple panels to do their thing, it makes a degree of cinematic sense for them to take damage each phase.  And for gameplay reasons, you don't want some Spd 7 guy standing there in the fire shooting at people, not worried about burning because it's not the end of the Turn yet.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well I mean,  what's the fire doing to the fuel?  If a house ablaze does 2-4d6 damage every SECOND to a building, its not going to last more than a turn or two.

[Nolgroth]

This is another area where Hero breaks. In the fantasy thing I am (occasionally) working on, only Dragon's Fire, Hellfire, and some really powerful spells have Killing damage. All other fires, cold and other elemental effects are Blast, so that normal PD provides its defense against both the Body and Stun of an attacks. I think that models most "real" world examples, like Massey falling into a fire, pretty well. Somewhere along the line, Hero (and I) started leaning towards Killing attacks for many things, when Normal damage is sufficiently effective and scary all on its own. I can't speak for Hero, but I am starting to pull back from that. Besides, it gives the warrior some benefit when he can do Killing damage with his weapons while the wizard "only" does Normal damage.

 

In regards to segmented damage, that's about as efficient as segmented movement. It is probably more accurate, but the net effect is much more bookkeeping time. I would give all constant, uncontrolled effects their own speed. On those phases, those caught in them take damage. It is not as "realistic" perhaps, but it is very much more efficient. You can even rule that if a character were in the burning zone for any segment between the last phase and the current one, they take half damage or something. I personally wouldn't bother.

 

You can get into a huge calculation to find the most appropriate figures, but I think most of us can "eyeball" what's appropriate for the tone and relative realism of our games. The Hero rulebooks provide a baseline, but as we have discussed in other topics, the Hero baseline is geared towards Champions.

[Doc Democracy]

 A character has a 3-4 speed on average for most games (probably 4-5 in superheroic but you'll ignore that kind of damage at the superhero level anyway), so that means they take 3 increments of damage minimum before moving again.  Running through a burning area means you take 3-4 hits of up to 2d6 killing?  That seems excessive to me.

No argument here, I think it is an issue of perceived damage. I think this exposes HERO's superhero roots as damage is often scaled to be a concern to superheroes rather than benchmarking to a normal level. It is prevalent in many aspects of the game.

 

I do think that if you are going to damage that SPD 3 person on a segmented basis you need to turn to segmented movement for that character. How many segments is the character within the fire assuming constant movement rather than saying "tough luck you ended your move there, you'll be taking damage until you can move again...."

[Hugh Neilson]

Giving the environment a SPD can also work. Constant powers and Continuing Charges already do so, relying on the SPD of the character with the power.

 

There's a tradeoff here. Does my Fantasy character hit a Ghoul with a flaming torch? The Club aspect does 2d6 and the fire does 1 pip to 1d6. If it does 1 pip when I hit the ghoul with it, just momentary contact, shouldn't it inflict more damage if I hold my hand in the flame for a turn? Or do we want a smack with a flaming torch to do no fire damage at all, because it's too brief? How long does the Evil Villain have to press the branding iron into Our Hero before the damage is more than cosmetic?

 

Maybe environmental damage should be modeled on Damage over Time, doing minor increments of damage every segment, but defenses applying only once per turn, or minute, or some such? Make the damage Standard Effect and we can conveniently assess the damage on the character's phase, just before his action, based on how many segments have passed since his last phase.

 

This is easier in a game without the SPD chart, as everyone moving at the same pace makes it easy for everyone to suffer environmental effects at the same rate.

[Blazmo]

I believe this issue is actually covered in Advanced Players Guide, in the chapter on environmental effects. It uses a similar method to Nolgroth's which is to say that the fire is assigned a speed which affects how fast it spreads and deals damage. Also, fire starts off dealing very low killing damage and slowly ramps up that amount based on flammability tests. The section on fire is much longer and more detailed than what I've described here but I think it mostly follows similar lines to Nolgroth's way of handling fire which he describes in this thread.