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Holy Crap, Disarm is overpowered!


knasser2

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I was just creating powers for a "Knight" character and wanted one of them to be an improved disarm that made it more feasible for her to disarm those she fought. So naturally the first thing I did was look up the standard disarm rules with the idea of maybe some PSL or something. But wow - all you have to do to disarm an opponent is a standard Attack Roll followed by winning an immediate Str vs. Str. It's not certain, but if your character is strong (as most PCs will be vs. standard opponents), you've a really good chance of taking their weapon from them.

 

That's REALLY powerful in a Fantasy game. You instantly turn your opponent into someone who can't hurt you. And they have to go and get it if they want to be able to continue fighting.

 

What do other people do for their games or have their players simply agreed not to abuse this? Or do they just mostly fight monsters rather than other characters who fight with weapons?

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Hasn't seemed overpowered in my experience.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary already seems to lack arms

 

Seriously? I do not at all mean to be confrontational and hope I'm not, but I'm staggered. The PC knight Hero McLightsword squares off against Baron Badness, Both have their sword and shield in hand and Baron Badness wields the Dread Darksword, the grand finalé villain is prepared in his platemail. He's got high PD, rPD, Body, Constitution and Stun. In short, McLightsword is going to have to work hard to whittle down the tough old baron. But then he rolls an Attack Roll and wins a Str vs. Str (about 50/50 chance) and suddenly the Baron cannot hurt our hero. Well, he can flap at McLightsword with his hands but realistically without a weapon he's not going to achieve much. So he'd better toddle off and get it whilst McLightsword wails on the poor Baron. When the Baron has his weapon back (which he has to use his Phase to both go and then pick up again), McLightfoot can go again. In a pure one v. one, the additional disarm actions reduce the amount of damaging hits McLightsword gets in but it repeatedly neutralizes the Baron.

 

Being able to render an enemy unable to damage you in exchange for giving up a single damaging blow is very powerful, imo. Especially given the subtle tactical benefits such as it opening up the ability to harm an enemy that would shrug off damage, to direct them where you want (you choose where to send the disarmed weapon forcing them to follow and it would be the easiest thing in the world to send it to a friend who could get it before the enemy's Phase), Plus it can be utilized against special items like a wizard's staff or wand, the Mighty Artifact of EndGame. It makes solo villains very hard to pull off with even two PCs vs. a single one because one can keep the enemy neutralized (and if the first fails one round the second can do it) whilst the second piles on damage.

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There's a reason that most online games either restrict disarm to fellow player characters (not monsters) or have the monsters do the same damage with or without weapons.  However, that said, disarm is not just a reasonable tactic, its real-world specific.  Taking a weapon away isn't easy but is very powerful in real life, too.  Guy with sword or guy with bare hands, which is less dangerous?

 

Its easy enough to get around disarm stuff.  Most martial arts make it easier to hang on to your weapon, extra strength just to prevent disarm is cheap, some foci cannot be disarmed despite looking that way (OIF), and you can always build people able to get their gear back instantly.  Remember: what you can use against others, they can use against you.

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There's a reason that most online games either restrict disarm to fellow player characters (not monsters) or have the monsters do the same damage with or without weapons.  However, that said, disarm is not just a reasonable tactic, its real-world specific.  Taking a weapon away isn't easy but is very powerful in real life, too.  Guy with sword or guy with bare hands, which is less dangerous?

 

Its easy enough to get around disarm stuff.  Most martial arts make it easier to hang on to your weapon, extra strength just to prevent disarm is cheap, some foci cannot be disarmed despite looking that way (OIF), and you can always build people able to get their gear back instantly.  Remember: what you can use against others, they can use against you.

 

Granted, it is realistic. There is a reason some knights had their weapon chained to their armour or belt. But that said, I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a player that the GM might use my own tactics back at me, I'm in the position of a GM that wants a variety of martial powers for characters and is trying to balance something and suddenly found the backdoor is open whilst I've been securing the front of the house. A melee focused character is likely to have a high strength, often higher than NPCs. Most characters, NPC or PC, will do their damage via a weapon. This is like in a Supers game being able to shut down an enemy's main power. I think I'll have to adjust it, maybe give a Strength boost to the defender somehow.

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A few levels to avoid being blocked or disarmed goes a long ways and is pretty cheap.  As you say, weapon chains aren't unheard of, and other devices were used as well.  That still allows a disarm, but the victim can re arm themselves with a half phase action.  The thing is, its not an easy maneuver to use, and even if you succeed, you have to defeat the target in strength battle, which is not a simple task either.  Even if you're 10 points stronger than your target (unlikely against a serious foe) that's just +2 to the roll, hardly certain.

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Keep in mind that a "standard Attack roll" often isn't all that standard. Defensive Combat Maneuvers, Combat Skill Levels, Martial Arts Maneuvers, and shields can all make an opponent more difficult to hit, especially considering the existing penalty for Disarm. As has been mentioned, Martial Maneuvers can also effectively make an opponent stronger versus a Disarm attempt. Extra Strength only vs Disarms, and Inaccessible Foci weapons, are valid tactics, especially if your foe has enchanted weapons. At worst, your enemy can carry more than one weapon -- real knights and other historical combatants often carried backups in case they lost their primary weapon. And instead of "flailing" at you, how about if your foe has the skill to trip or grapple you to the ground, or just bash you really hard with their shield, or an armored fist?

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Disarm is not permanent. How many times in movies has the Hero or the Villain been disarmed, only to leap over a table, swing across a chandelier or interpose another person between them and their opponent. If played right (IMO), Disarm (or any maneuver) is a great way to inject dynamic motion into a combat. Only if playing a "slug fest" should Disarm become too overpowering. 

 

Villains can also use Disarm.

 

I suggest that Extra DC for Martial Arts also works to help retain a weapon in a Disarm attempt. You can even build maneuvers that begin with Retentive (Retentive Strike, Retentive Block, etc) that are built to make sure you are not extending yourself too far and opening up yourself to being Disarmed. Would take a few minutes to design the maneuvers using Hero System Martial Arts or the Ultimate Martial Artist, but not that long.

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It's a -2 OCV maneuver, attacker has to get more BODY on the roll (not just equal, giving the advantage to the defender), it's not an ability exclusive to PCs, disarmed characters shouldn't be sitting ducks, etc.

 

And, HERO System is a toolkit. Don't like the way Disarm has been handled all these decades? Change it.  Make it a -3 or -4 OCV maneuver.  Make it a -2 DCV maneuver as well.  Make it harder to disarm based on weapon length and/or weight. Heck, make a matrix of weapon to weapon modifiers! Make the distance the weapon flies less or more. And so on.

 

How do you want Disarm to operate in your game? Do that.

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In an evenly matched scenario (same STR, even CVs), you've only got about a 25% chance of successfully disarming your opponent (about a 37% chance of making the Attack roll, due to the maneuver's -2 OCV penalty, and about a 68% chance of a win or tie in the STR vs STR). If you don't make both, you wasted your Phase. And if you pull off the maneuver, you still haven't won the fight; the weapon might be recoverable or they might have a backup weapon.

 

That's not a reliable win button; it's actually a pretty risky maneuver unless you've got the odds stacked in your favor, and if you do then you're usually better off just beating them up.

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Disarm isn't overpowered because it goes both ways. Not only can the PC disarm the NPCs, but they can disarm the PC right back. Plus there are any number of ways to generate a character who is effectively immune to the maneuver. The same goes for any of the "Control" maneuvers.

 

In a heroic campaign anybody who really needs a weapon to function likely has as much Strength as they can muster. So the maneuver is generally only useful if the attacker has invested more heavily into the tactic than the defender, or if the defender cannot Abort To Block for whatever reason (or isn't as invested in Block as you are in Disarm).

This is of course assuming the defender even uses weapons. Disarm is less than worthless against most Monsters because they've nothing to disarm, and often break the Strength Maxima as well; so you might not win even if they did.

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Try to think in terms of game entertainment value rather than a contest between your guys and the PCs.  What would be more fun: every fight being a bash fest until one falls down or having the PCs able to go "en garde!" and send the mook's sword flying away as they look on sheepishly?  Coolness factor.  If they can do it every time, then its time to mix things up, but being able to reliably disarm one of the many goblins facing the PCs is just cool, not broken.  The Goblin King, on the other hand, he won't let go so easily.

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Too many replies to respond individually but thank you to all for taking the time.

 

So the first thing to note is that I was unaware that there is a -2 OCV penalty for trying this. I looked up Disarm in the index and it said 6E2,60 so that was the page I went to and I read all the rules for Disarm under it. It only says "make an Attack Roll" and the penalties it does suggest are specific to circumstances such as two-handed weapons. Only after reading the replies here did I go back and look at what I thought was a summary table four pages earlier, but which actually turns out to contain vital information! Namely -2 OCV. I do seem to keep running into issues where the rules information is scattered.

 

Okay, so now it doesn't seem as bad. I think combining it with some abilities that help prevent disarming it might be okay. It does favour certain types of fighter though. The nimble duellist with his rapier is going to find himself rather easily disarmed by the burly thug who has far more Strength than the dextrous defender. I don't know if that's realistic or not but it's certainly something I have to anticipate and deal with if I don't want light and agile PCs to be victims of casual disarming. Or vice versa. It's going to suck if every time "Zorro" fights an orc he finds his rapier stuck in a nearby tree.

 

So how would I buy "Disarm Defense" for a character? And what would it cost?

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Also,

 

Something else worth noting.  If the character attempting the Disarm has a higher DEX/Initiative then they are also running a higher risk of the opponent winning the Initiative for the next Phase if they successfully Block the Disarm attempt.

 

HM

 

I'm probably being dense but could you explain what you mean by the above?

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IIRC, you can use appropriate Martial Maneuvers to resist similar ones. For example (again IIRC), you should be able to use your Exert Bonus STR from Martial Disarm to resist being disarmed yourself.

 

Otherwise you can just buy Limited STR as a power, with Only To Resist Disarm (-2) (and maybe Zero END). Or buy extra DCV/CSLs Only To Resist Disarm.

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So the first thing to note is that I was unaware that there is a -2 OCV penalty for trying this. I looked up Disarm in the index and it said 6E2,60 so that was the page I went to and I read all the rules for Disarm under it. It only says "make an Attack Roll" and the penalties it does suggest are specific to circumstances such as two-handed weapons. Only after reading the replies here did I go back and look at what I thought was a summary table four pages earlier, but which actually turns out to contain vital information! Namely -2 OCV. I do seem to keep running into issues where the rules information is scattered.

 

Agreed, 6E1&2 aren't great at teaching the game. Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete handle that much better, IMO. In them, for example, the format of the manuever descriptions is like this:

 

 

DISARM (1⁄2 Phase; -2 OCV; +0 DCV)

Allows a character to knock a weapon or hand-held object out of another character’s grasp. With a successful Attack Roll, the two characters engage in a STR Versus STR Contest. If the defender’s BODY total is higher, the Disarm attempt fails. 

[...]

 

The vital info is right there in the section header. Same with Skills, which list the Characteristic they're associated with right in the section header. I wish someone had thought of that back in the 6E1&2 days.

 

Hopefully we'll be able to help you through the rough spots of learning the game from 6E1&2, though. :)

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Okay, so now it doesn't seem as bad. I think combining it with some abilities that help prevent disarming it might be okay. It does favour certain types of fighter though. The nimble duellist with his rapier is going to find himself rather easily disarmed by the burly thug who has far more Strength than the dextrous defender. I don't know if that's realistic or not but it's certainly something I have to anticipate and deal with if I don't want light and agile PCs to be victims of casual disarming. Or vice versa. It's going to suck if every time "Zorro" fights an orc he finds his rapier stuck in a nearby tree.

 

Remember the trade-off in combat. Presuming comparable Character Point totals, the nimble duelist has put more Points into CV than the burly thug, who bought up his Strength. So the thug has a harder time actually connecting to Disarm his opponent, particularly with the penalty, or hitting him at all for that matter; while the duelist is more likely to hit the thug in return. Statistically the nimble character is actually favored in this exchange. If there are a few points' difference in CV, like between a duelist and the above-mentioned gruntish orc, the orc will spend most of the fight swinging at air.

 

Good illustration of the tactical difference between such fighters in a scene from Game of Thrones, the Red Viper vs the Mountain. (A bit gruesome, but it is GoT.)

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I think the Hero System's intrinsic cinematic bias is sometimes forgotten when it is used for heroic level games. The system is by default going to favor combats that look like the duel in The Princess Bride, not something highly realistic.

 

If you want something more realistic, then you'll need to make some adjustments to the mechanics to account for details the RAW do not. Making Disarm harder to execute by giving it a larger OCV penalty is a good start. After all, you are targeting your opponent's weapon, not their body, which should presumably be more difficult. Also, you might only allow a Disarm to be performed after an opponent fails to hit with their own weapon. Etc. In essence, study the mechanics of real-world sword combat and determine what details you feel aren't being accounted for by the RAW and add them to your campaign as you see fit.

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In 'real-world sword combat' (to the limited extent I have been exposed to it) most Disarm attempts follow a successful Block, or sometimes Dodge. As a defensive combatant it is one of the few methods you have available for securing a decisive victory (that doesn't necessarily involve death).

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That makes sense when you want to represent a combatant who has trained themselves in the art of avoiding being disarmed. It doesn't really model the fact that actively disarming someone (trained to avoid it or not) is intrinsically difficult simply due to the fact that weapons are small (compared to a person) and move quickly (compared to a person's overall body). It's almost like the weapon should have its own DCV based on its size and general activeness in a combat situation, and the disarm attempt should be an attack on the weapon. A weapon used for attack might have its own DCV adjusted based on the type of strike used, making it easier or harder to "hit" (i.e., set up for a disarm). Even when you successfully Block, in actual sword combat, that doesn't automatically mean your weapon is in a position to follow up with an effective disarming attempt. And in some cases, disarm attempts make the attacker vulnerable to certain counter-attacks, for instance if the original attack was a feint, designed to attract a disarm attempt, and is in reality a sort of trap.

 

Fencing (and sword combat in general) is a complex phenomenon, and getting all its nuances modeled by a system like the Hero System, which is more geared towards abstraction and streamlined, cinematic action, is going to be problematic. The cure for a more realistic Disarm mechanic may not be worth the added (gameplay) complexity.

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I think combining it with some abilities that help prevent disarming it might be okay. It does favour certain types of fighter though. The nimble duellist with his rapier is going to find himself rather easily disarmed by the burly thug who has far more Strength than the dextrous defender. I don't know if that's realistic or not but it's certainly something I have to anticipate and deal with if I don't want light and agile PCs to be victims of casual disarming. Or vice versa. It's going to suck if every time "Zorro" fights an orc he finds his rapier stuck in a nearby tree.

 

So how would I buy "Disarm Defense" for a character? And what would it cost?

Cantriped has the right idea: STR, Only to resist Disarm (-2)

 

​How much it costs depends entirely on how much STR you wish to buy for this.  For example, 30 active points of STR for this purpose would only cost 10 real points, as I agree with Cantriped on the (-2) limitation value.

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