Holy Crap, Disarm is overpowered!

[PhilFleischmann]

I'm not 100% on this but I think the added DCs you buy in martial arts can be used to resist disarms like they can be used with other exert maneuvers.

I don't know if that's the case, but it's a good idea.  Of course, those DCs should only help when they aren't being used for something else - like damage, or extra Grab/Grab Weapon/Disarm/etc. STR.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It makes sense to me conceptually, just skill to maintain your weapon beyond ordinary training.

[Beast]

what is to say your foe has a 2nd weapon should you take away his first
or they have a spike as a shield boss
drawing a 2nd weapon is a 1/2 phase action and you are right there
doing a trip maneuver to put you on the ground at 1/2 dcv

if you are in a dex off position you might lose this time and now your foe has an easier time with a called shot(high shot is a 3 in 6 for getting the head and is only -4

[Ninja-Bear]

Knasser2 I once used the martial arts rules to make a custom maneuver. I called it Resist Disar. I don't have it in front of me but it was based on block and have extra STR just to resist Disarm.

 

The easiest way might be +5 STR only to resist Disarm lim -1 . 3 real points

[Beast]

lanyard:  Clinging (+15 STR) (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (only holds on to weapon; -2), OIF (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4)

[Surrealone]

The easiest way might be +5 STR only to resist Disarm lim -1 . 3 real points

STR w/o limitations can be used for a lot, so you're really skimping on the limitation if you're only giving (-1) for ONLY being able to be used to resist Disarm.  I think that's a very reasonable (-2) given all the things that STR with such a limitation cannot be used for.

[Ninja-Bear]

STR w/o limitations can be used for a lot, so you're really skimping on the limitation if you're only giving (-1) for ONLY being able to be used to resist Disarm. I think that's a very reasonable (-2) given all the things that STR with such a limitation cannot be used for.

I won't argue that!

[Hyper-Man]

From 5er page 399 & 6e2 page 92:
 

MARTIAL DISARM
This Maneuver is identical to a normal Disarm, except that the character receives a bonus to his STR only for purposes of determining the outcome of the Disarm STR Versus STR Contest. The character has his normal STR for all other purposes. The character also receives a bonus to his DCV.

As an optional rule, GMs might allow characters with Martial Disarm to use the Maneuver’s STR bonus to resist being Disarmed. This option prevents fencers and similar characters from constantly Disarming each other.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I would only allow Martial Damage Classes to affect the Disarm attempt for either character IF they actually have the Martial Disarm Maneuver.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sounds like a good rule, to me.

[Surrealone]

I tend to agree.

[Hyper-Man]

On a somewhat related note I was reviewing the Grab rules (which Disarm is just a specific case) and was reminded of the OCV and DCV modifiers that are imposed when the Grab is successful.  It's not that big of a deal in a Fantasy Hero setting but in a Dark Champions setting with guns the penalties can be a very big deal.  See this thread if you are interested in seeing more.

 

LINK

 

HM

[Surrealone]

On a somewhat related note I was reviewing the Grab rules (which Disarm is just a specific case) and was reminded of the OCV and DCV modifiers that are imposed when the Grab is successful.  It's not that big of a deal in a Fantasy Hero setting but in a Dark Champions setting with guns the penalties can be a very big deal.  See this thread if you are interested in seeing more.

The penalties are only a huge deal if you don't use your grabbed opponent as jack armor/partial cover ... thereby offsetting the DCV penalty in a major way.  (Since you're a John Wick fan, pay close attention to how Wick manipulates grabbed targets when other opponents are present; he frequently uses them as jack armor.) 

[Hyper-Man]

The penalties are only a huge deal if you don't use your grabbed opponent as jack armor/partial cover ... thereby offsetting the DCV penalty in a major way.  (Since you're a John Wick fan, pay close attention to how Wick manipulates grabbed targets when other opponents are present; he frequently uses them as jack armor.)

 

John, when fully armed at least, is normally concerned with eliminating all recognized targets as quickly and efficiently (conserving ammunition) as possible. If someone is close enough that he can bring them down with some sort of grab or throw it then frees up his eyes and gun hand to focus on targets that are further away. Once the immediate far targets are eliminated he then can put head shots into the grabbed target.  While using some grabbed targets as shields occurs (the red shirts in the Red Circle?) it's not a main strategy.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

John, when fully armed at least, is normally concerned with eliminating all recognized targets as quickly and efficiently (conserving ammunition) as possible. If someone is close enough that he can bring them down with some sort of grab or throw it then frees up his eyes and gun hand to focus on targets that are further away. Once the immediate far targets are eliminated he then can put head shots into the grabbed target.  While using some grabbed targets as shields occurs (the red shirts in the Red Circle?) it's not a main strategy.

Yea, we'll have to agree to disagree on that -- given that Wick often uses 3 shots where 2 will do (example: when attacked in his home in the first movie) ... and given that his use of grabbed targets for cover was necessary for his success in Red Circle.

 

But we're off topic, here...

[Old Man]

I think the main reasons I never had problems with disarm in FH were:

 

1. Why disarm the guy at -2 OCV when I can hit him for damage at full OCV?

2. Disarmed opponents may be harder to kill depending on PC and player psych lims.

3. Bad guys can disarm too.

 

Grab, on the other hand... halve target's DCV so your buddies can kill him, unless he can get out with casual STR.  -1 OCV, no weapon required.

[knasser2]

Sometimes these forums feel like some medieval court, with a group of learned judges chewing over some fine point of law with each other.

 

 

I think the Hero System's intrinsic cinematic bias is sometimes forgotten when it is used for heroic level games. The system is by default going to favor combats that look like the duel in The Princess Bride, not something highly realistic.

 

If you want something more realistic, then you'll need to make some adjustments to the mechanics to account for details the RAW do not. Making Disarm harder to execute by giving it a larger OCV penalty is a good start. After all, you are targeting your opponent's weapon, not their body, which should presumably be more difficult. Also, you might only allow a Disarm to be performed after an opponent fails to hit with their own weapon. Etc. In essence, study the mechanics of real-world sword combat and determine what details you feel aren't being accounted for by the RAW and add them to your campaign as you see fit.

 

Is it really intended that way? I always thought it was intended to be a very nitty-gritty realistic system what with hit-locations, weapon lengths and all that. Might explain some of my confusion if it's meant to be more of a Princess Bride, Errol Flynn affair.

 

 

I'm not 100% on this but I think the added DCs you buy in martial arts can be used to resist disarms like they can be used with other exert maneuvers.

 

That makes sense. But I steer clear of the Martial Arts rules as much as possible. That might be a huge mistake given I want a bunch of martial powers but I get confused by it for a number of reasons. Firstly it's written in places as if there are supposed to be named Martial Arts, as if a character will study Judo or Karate or Boxing but I don't really get how such things intersect with the Hero rules generally. The distinction between powers and martial manoeuvres is something I don't really understand either. So I've been trying to build martial powers as Powers. E.g. if I create a "Sweeping Blow" for a knight character that lets him knock all those around him prone, I build that as a power. I had initially thought that Martial Manoeuvres were simply pre-created powers but the interactions with CL and PSL sort of blurred the boundary for me. I don't think you can get CLs with Powers can you?

 

 

Yea, we'll have to agree to disagree on that -- given that Wick often uses 3 shots where 2 will do (example: when attacked in his home in the first movie) ... and given that his use of grabbed targets for cover was necessary for his success in Red Circle.

But we're off topic, here...

 

Two shots someone might still get up. Three, less so! Yes, it's off-topic but it's my thread and they're great movies!

 

I think the main reasons I never had problems with disarm in FH were:

 

1. Why disarm the guy at -2 OCV when I can hit him for damage at full OCV?

2. Disarmed opponents may be harder to kill depending on PC and player psych lims.

3. Bad guys can disarm too.

 

Grab, on the other hand... halve target's DCV so your buddies can kill him, unless he can get out with casual STR.  -1 OCV, no weapon required.

 

Hmmm. I had better have another look at Grab and how that might break my game as well, then. Thanks. Can you explain what you mean by #2 on your list. I don't understand.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that both grab and block are pretty potent, more so than disarm.  They all have their drawbacks and significant issues to deal with, so I wouldn't worry about any of their use.  Its just interesting to me that a lot of gamers don't and won't use the unarmed combat stuff.  I know why: in almost every other game system, unarmed combat is this bizarre, complex, byzantine alternate combat system that nobody really understands or likes.  In hero, its all one, armed and unarmed.

[zslane]

I always thought it was intended to be a very nitty-gritty realistic system what with hit-locations, weapon lengths and all that. Might explain some of my confusion if it's meant to be more of a Princess Bride, Errol Flynn affair.

Can't tell if serious. 

[Lucius]

I had initially thought that Martial Manoeuvres were simply pre-created powers but the interactions with CL and PSL sort of blurred the boundary for me. I don't think you can get CLs with Powers can you?

Yes, as a matter of fact, you can.

 

Think about it. You can buy Combat Skill Levels with a weapon, and you know a weapon is basically an Attack Power on a Focus, right?

 

 

Hmmm. I had better have another look at Grab and how that might break my game as well, then. Thanks. Can you explain what you mean by #2 on your list. I don't understand.

I don't mean to speak for Old Man, but I think he means something like this: If your character is a chivalrous knight with a Code of Honor and faces an unarmed opponent, the knight can't kill them. Striking down an unarmed warrior is dishonorable! If the character has no such Complication but the player has a hang up about it, then again, there will be a reluctance to kill the disarmed foe.

 

 

Try thinking of Martial Arts this way. EVERY character has access to standard maneuvers - anyone can Strike, Dodge, Block, Grab, Disarm, etc. What Martial Arts does is extend that list of options in combat for a given character, with a cost associated with each added maneuver beyond the standard. Basically, they intersect with the rest of the rules at much the same point the standard maneuvers do.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary intersects itself

[Lord Liaden]

Sometimes these forums feel like some medieval court, with a group of learned judges chewing over some fine point of law with each other.

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome to Hero System fandom. Chewing over fine points of "law" has been a tradition and passion of Hero wanks for decades.

 

When you really know the system has you hooked, is when you watch an action sequence in a movie or television show (any genre), and start imagining how you'd model it in Hero.

[Vondy]

Another thing to keep in mind is that martial arts can be purchased with multiple weapon elements including barehanded.

 

If you have the drive back maneuver, for instance, in your sword-fighting "MA" package along with the "barehanded" weapon element, you can shove the attacker who disarmed you back to gain space to recover your weapon. If you have the trip maneuver (its in sword-fighting in HSMA) then you can knock them down to gain that same time... or switch to "put the boot in" while they are prone (+4DC) and start face stomping for 6-8d6. Alternatively, drop down on top of them (grab) so they can't effectively use their weapon (you are too close), snatch up a rock, and start in helmet-bashing! By that same token, who said the opponent you disarmed doesn't have unarmed martial arts separate from their weapon fighting. A simple "Knockout Punch" (+1 OCV, -2 DCV, +4DC) and Steel Gauntlets (+1DC) could result in a nasty 7-9d6 surprise. The list continues...

 

SHWING!  "Ha! Take that! You are disarmed! Yield I say!"

"Foolish Knave!" KA-POW! 

CRASH! "I yield! I yield! For I am stunned and prone and... wait! Get off of me! What are you....?!"

"Die you lame-arsed Oedipus wannabe! Die! Die!" Klang! Klang! Klang!

Spurt! Spurt! "Drat! He is more proficient with a rock than a sword! Why didst I disarm this savage foe...."

"He lies dazed. I shall recover my sword for the coup de grace!" 

 

The thing about Hero is: you've got options.  

[Nolgroth]

Ah ha, Vondy is back! Good to see you.

[knasser2]

Can't tell if serious. 

 

I regret to inform you, I was. If I look at a system and it has detailed rules for hit locations, differentiation of armour values between physical and energy damage, rules for growing tired and other such nittiness and grittiness, I think of realism.

 

Fooled, I have been, then!

[Hyper-Man]

I regret to inform you, I was. If I look at a system and it has detailed rules for hit locations, differentiation of armour values between physical and energy damage, rules for growing tired and other such nittiness and grittiness, I think of realism.

 

Fooled, I have been, then!

 

Many of those 'detailed' rules you speak of are considered optional. At its core with no options in play HERO is quite forgiving (characters are very hard to kill) and is considered 'cinematic' by some as a result. With most if not all of the options active it can become very detailed (or nity grity),  If you don't already have one I strongly suggest getting a version of the martial arts rules to match the core rules you already own as they are probably the second best purchase in the game [The Ultimate Martial Artist (4e or 5e) and Hero System Martial Arts (6e)].  They are useful for both superheroic and heroic games.

 

HM