System quirks (your favorite or least favorite)

[JmOz]

Yes they have. Noncombat Movement works differently for Leaping. Your total Noncombat Leaping is also your maximum leap distance, yet you only travel your Combat Leaping per Phase. Therefore a character with 200m (the 6th/CC/FHC equivalent of 100") of Leaping with x8 Noncombat Multiplier can leap up to 1,600m in a single bound, but completing such a leap would take 8 phases.

 

I wish for the sake of consistency that they had made Swinging work the same way.

 

Actually that is a little off, it takes a number of phases equal to the number of multipliers, that would be 3 phases not 8

[Joe Walsh]

Yes they have. Noncombat Movement works differently for Leaping. Your total Noncombat Leaping is also your maximum leap distance, yet you only travel your Combat Leaping per Phase. Therefore a character with 200m (the 6th/CC/FHC equivalent of 100") of Leaping with x8 Noncombat Multiplier can leap up to 1,600m in a single bound, but completing such a leap would take 8 phases.

 

What I mean is that if I buy 100m of Leaping, I'm buying 100m of Leaping in one Phase of combat. There's no clear way to buy a 100m (or 200m, or 1000m, or 1,000,000m) Leap that takes two or more Phases in combat. If I can leap across the city in one bound during combat, I can do it in one Phase. To me, even a leap across a warehouse in one bound should take more than one Phase by default.

[Hugh Neilson]

What I mean is that if I buy 100m of Leaping, I'm buying 100m of Leaping in one Phase of combat. There's no clear way to buy a 100m (or 200m, or 1000m, or 1,000,000m) Leap that takes two or more Phases in combat. If I can leap across the city in one bound during combat, I can do it in one Phase. To me, even a leap across a warehouse in one bound should take more than one Phase by default.

I don't think it would be fair to structure the rules so I pay 50 points for +50 meters of Flight, and get to move 50 meters in a phase (as well as all other advantages of Flight), but I would spend 25 points to Leap +50 meters and it takes a lot longer to get there. The movement rules are presently constructed around "this is how far you move in one combat phase". IOW, it is constructed so that, if I buy 100m of Leaping, Flight, Running or Swimming, I'm buying 100m of Leaping, Flight, Running or Swimming in one Phase of combat.

 

Want a 100 meter leap that takes two phases? Look at the Extra Time limitations, or look to non-combat multiples.

[Joe Walsh]

I don't think it would be fair to structure the rules so I pay 50 points for +50 meters of Flight, and get to move 50 meters in a phase (as well as all other advantages of Flight), but I would spend 25 points to Leap +50 meters and it takes a lot longer to get there. The movement rules are presently constructed around "this is how far you move in one combat phase". IOW, it is constructed so that, if I buy 100m of Leaping, Flight, Running or Swimming, I'm buying 100m of Leaping, Flight, Running or Swimming in one Phase of combat.

 

Right, I've always assumed that's why it is the way it is. But when I think about buying the ability to leap across a warehouse in combat, and by default ending up with my otherwise normal-speed character being able to do that in one Phase, it seems quirky to me. And the fact that the entry, to this day, does not talk about how to fix that (in fact, doesn't even acknowledge it as an issue), turns it into something that bugs me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Right, I've always assumed that's why it is the way it is. But when I think about buying the ability to leap across a warehouse in combat, and by default ending up with my otherwise normal-speed character being able to do that in one Phase, it seems quirky to me. And the fact that the entry, to this day, does not talk about how to fix that (in fact, doesn't even acknowledge it as an issue), turns it into something that bugs me.

It seems no more unusual to me than buying the ability to run across a warehouse in combat, and by default ending up with my otherwise normal-speed character being able to do that in one Phase. By purchasing the ability to leap across a warehouse, you have made the character able to leap across a warehouse, which normal people could not do, any more than they can run, fly or teleport across the warehouse in the same period of time.

 

To me, it would be more an oddity if Leaping worked differently than all other forms of movement than that it works the same.

[Brian Stanfield]

One of mine is falling damage vs move-through damage.

 

HERO assigns a max falling speed (terminal velocity) of 60 meters per segment for 30d6 damage. Oof.

 

The thing is... a move through attack that impacted at 60 meters per segment (ie: a character using  a movement power, a car, etc) inflicts strength + v/6.  So a car with a 'str' of 20 inflicts 14d6 if it moves 60 before hitting you.

 

That's half the damage of striking the ground after falling the same distance in the segment.

 

Why? What makes falling so much more dangerous than being hit by a car travelling at the same distance in that segment? Or a hero strong enough to lift the Statue of Liberty (70) with the same action (14d6 + 10d6 = 24d6)?

Dont forget that falling is acceleration per segment, not just movement. To be falling at terminal velocity, you shall have fallen at least 210 meters before you reach that velocity.

[Joe Walsh]

It seems no more unusual to me than buying the ability to run across a warehouse in combat, and by default ending up with my otherwise normal-speed character being able to do that in one Phase. By purchasing the ability to leap across a warehouse, you have made the character able to leap across a warehouse, which normal people could not do, any more than they can run, fly or teleport across the warehouse in the same period of time.

 

To me, it would be more an oddity if Leaping worked differently than all other forms of movement than that it works the same.

 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[Hyper-Man]

I think part of the issue is that Leaping (and Swinging) should have been mechanically folded into the cost structure of Flight the same way that Gliding was (they are  both essentially Limited Flight). Since that did not happen there is a major Active Point discrepancy which I think is the big source of the current issue.  I tend to include the Combat Acceleration Advantage* for characters with a significant amount of Leaping to address some of the issues but it was never completely satisfying.  Although I am not sure exactly how I would fold Leaping and Swinging into Flight I think Gliding gives a pretty good 'template' of how they should get a minor 'advantage' for free (like 0 End). In the case of Leaping I would officially give it Combat Acceleration for free.  It might also get an automatic Limitation similar to what is used on HA to address the Real Cost.  I'm not sure what the solution to non-combat movement would be (whether it should be changed as well or stay 'as-is'.

 

* Even though the official ruling is that this is not needed.

 

HM

[DasBroot]

I'm not sure why leaping is 2 m for 1 AP, to be honest.  To cover 30 meters as a full move you can pay 30 points (flight/teleport), 18 points (running), or 13 points (leaping).  To cover 60 it's 60, 48, or 30.  

 

Flight gives you 3d movement and can flat out remove you from melee reach so should be more expensive.  Teleport isn't affected by gravity on vertical moves and gives you unparalled freedom of movement (only special jail cells, barriers, or entangles can hold you.  Even a wall won't stop you if you're willing to blind teleport) -  that's a pretty good advantage too.

 

Running provides none of that but has 'no turn mode' baked in, which could be handy in certain situations (you know, like... indoors). It still costs 1/1, though - it's only cheaper because you have 12 'free' levels.

 

Leaping requires an attack roll and can't turn.  is that enough to justify the cost difference?

 

(Funnily enough, though, Leaping is sort of like Teleport with Restrainable, Must Pass Through Intervening Space, and Decreased Acceleration (you can't teleport as far if you can't teleport at least 3/4 meters).  - which does indeed give you the same pricing as Leaping, doesn't require an attack roll, and isn't affected by gravity - so... there's that.  It also doesn't have velocity and can't be used in /v maneovers ... so there's also that).

 

Quirk I love above all else - there's always more than one way to build a power.

[DasBroot]

Dont forget that falling is acceleration per segment, not just movement. To be falling at terminal velocity, you shall have fallen at least 210 meters before you reach that velocity.

 

Oh, I know... but it still comes down to 60 m/segment/phase at the hard stop at the bottom in the end.  Who's to say that hypothetical car or charging hero didn't also previously cover 210 m at 60 m/phase before hitting you?

 

I do get that you had to fall several segments to get up to that speed, whereas Ram-Man, the Man That Rams!, just bull rushed you in a single phase for +10d6 (whereas the most you'd take from falling is 5d6 if it was your first phase falling) - but it still bugs me that impacting/being impacted against at the same speed does different things.

 

Hence, a quirk. Not a deal-breaker.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh, I know... but it still comes down to 60 m/segment/phase at the hard stop at the bottom in the end.  Who's to say that hypothetical car or charging hero didn't also previously cover 210 m at 60 m/phase before hitting you?

 

I do get that you had to fall several segments to get up to that speed, whereas Ram-Man, the Man That Rams!, just bull rushed you in a single phase for +10d6 (whereas the most you'd take from falling is 5d6 if it was your first phase falling) - but it still bugs me that impacting/being impacted against at the same speed does different things.

 

Hence, a quirk. Not a deal-breaker.  

 

Sure.  The quirky part is that velocity per segment is different from velocity per phase.  Those formulas also existed from a time when the game was less rigorous about matching that stuff up.  And, I should add, from a time when vehicles also moved per segment rather than per phase.

 

It was easy to not care because it was a comic book superheroes game.  Now it's more than just a comic book superheroes game...

[mrinku]

Re: Leaping

 

Keep in mind 6e is the first edition to detach Leaping from Strength and this is a relatively new version of the power. Previously it was the ONLY movement power that was a figured characteristic, aside from Running from Growth/Shrinking in some editions.

 

Also, everyone starts with 4m of Leaping, so there's a couple of points difference there with Teleport (though not much). 

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Leaping

 

Keep in mind 6e is the first edition to detach Leaping from Strength and this is a relatively new version of the power. Previously it was the ONLY movement power that was a figured characteristic, 

 

I guess... yeah, you could say that... I've never thought of Leaping as a figured characteristic based on STR any more than I ever thought of lift capacity or HTH damage as that.  

[Brian Stanfield]

Oh, I know... but it still comes down to 60 m/segment/phase at the hard stop at the bottom in the end.  Who's to say that hypothetical car or charging hero didn't also previously cover 210 m at 60 m/phase before hitting you?

 

I do get that you had to fall several segments to get up to that speed, whereas Ram-Man, the Man That Rams!, just bull rushed you in a single phase for +10d6 (whereas the most you'd take from falling is 5d6 if it was your first phase falling) - but it still bugs me that impacting/being impacted against at the same speed does different things.

 

Hence, a quirk. Not a deal-breaker.  

 

Understood. I guess I always just considered the fall to be "cumulative" damage over the course of the fall, which is simply a rationalization that has no basis in the rules, or physics for that matter. Quirky indeed.

[mrinku]

I guess... yeah, you could say that... I've never thought of Leaping as a figured characteristic based on STR any more than I ever thought of lift capacity or HTH damage as that.  

 

Well, those are more direct power effects. The trick is that Leaping/Superleap up until 6e had that figured base that was then modified by a Movement Power proper, which was a unique thing.

 

It took me by surprise, so used to the STR/5 base leaping amount as I was, but I'm now very much in favour of the figured characteristic purge. It's easy to add more Leaping (as it always was anyway) and makes for cleaner builds for conceptions that have arm strength but no great leaping abilities. I'm appreciating being able to tune OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV ratings to suit as well.

[mrinku]

Understood. I guess I always just considered the fall to be "cumulative" damage over the course of the fall, which is simply a rationalization that has no basis in the rules, or physics for that matter. Quirky indeed.

 

The falling damage rules are fairly solid physics. Phase based damage is the gameified thing that needs caution here. Since the moving character is assumed to stop between phases by default, it's not the same thing at all.

 

It's also worth pointing out that falls of 20m or less just take one segment and use a simplified damage rating. That will cover almost all Heroic and realistic campaign situations anyway, aside from skydiving without a parachute or jumping off a very tall structure or cliff... in which case its going to pretty much come down to noncombat matters for that character to survive at all.

 

For Superheroic, it's fine.

[Chris Goodwin]

Well, those are more direct power effects. The trick is that Leaping/Superleap up until 6e had that figured base that was then modified by a Movement Power proper, which was a unique thing.

 

It took me by surprise, so used to the STR/5 base leaping amount as I was, but I'm now very much in favour of the figured characteristic purge. It's easy to add more Leaping (as it always was anyway) and makes for cleaner builds for conceptions that have arm strength but no great leaping abilities. I'm appreciating being able to tune OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV ratings to suit as well.

 

Oh, this might count as a quirk.  In 3e, instead of Leaping, the Power was called Superleap, and you paid +10 points for every doubling of your base leaping distance from STR; I think it was all considered combat movement.  4e kept the name, but made it +1 point for +1" of leaping with 5 points for 2x Noncombat on top of a base of 2x.  

 

In 3e, Running and Swimming had a 2x noncombat multiple; Flight's noncombat speed was (points in Flight squared) / 5 inches per Phase.  Teleport let you double your distance per +5 points; this took an extra Phase, but didn't drop you to DCV 0 that I can tell.  Teleport was the only Movement Power that let you increase your noncombat movement.  (Flight's ridiculously high noncombat movement was the reason why speedsters took Flight, Must Touch Surface, to represent super speed; 30" of Flight could get you 720" per Phase Noncombat.)  4e gave Running and Flight the same cost per +1" and introduced the +5 points per 2x noncombat for all movement modes on top of base 2x that we all know and love.  

[Brian Stanfield]

The falling damage rules are fairly solid physics. Phase based damage is the gameified thing that needs caution here. Since the moving character is assumed to stop between phases by default, it's not the same thing at all.

I may have not been totally clear: I was accusing myself of not making legitimate physical sense, not the rules. Even though I understand the physics, and even have this awesome formula from a state trooper for calculating vectors in a head-on collision, I still have a hard time comprehending terminal velocity. Or the fact that a pen and a bowling ball fall at the same rate!

 

The quirky part has already been presented as why a head on collision of a particular net velocity is not calculated the same as a fall of the same velocity. I just never put too much thought into this particular case, and always rationalized it with my own half-baked assumptions!

[Lucius]

. Since the moving character is assumed to stop between phases by default,

Why do you say that the moving character is assumed to stop between phases by default?

 

By default, I usually assume the opposite.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary calls that assumption about stopping an unfortunate misconception but it's nobody's default.

[mrinku]

Technically a character accelerates and decelerates as they wish during their movement, but the default (based on the combat move of a character on foot) is that you simply move them from A to B up to the limit of their half move or full move as desired. That assumes acceleration from and deceleration to zero.

 

If you assume the opposite, anyone who ran 12m (and is now moving at a velocity of 12m per phase) would have a compulsory move of 3m in their next phase before they were able to stop.

 

But both are valid choices. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I find that you can usually figure out from context whether they are keeping velocity or stopping in between.  Like, if a character is making a half move to get to cover behind a wall, then they shoot from there, it's probable that they've stopped.  If they're moving in a straight line in a wide open space, they're probably keeping velocity.  If the GM anticipates that it might matter between now and their next phase, they can ask.  Otherwise, the 5/1 acceleration to movement ratio means it's more or less meaningless anyway; I can move 2" out of my 6", or 3m out of my 12m, and be at full velocity.

[mrinku]

Chris, I guess my view is that it has to be the default from how the original rules worked. The acceleration/deceleration thing I'm pretty sure came in with 4e. Before that it was just inches of combat movement.

 

But I agree that if it comes up as mattering, to check on it. But I've never had anyone using combat movement carry over velocity, or ask that they do so.

 

The key point, which I mentioned before, is if you assume everyone retains their last move's velocity for Combat Movement by default, there will be a lot more characters having to burn a half move on the phase they want to stop. There's no real advantage to that, so it's easier to assume they don't retain velocity between phases.

 

Normal 1: Phase 6 - Moves 12m and stops. Phase 12 decides to brace and set.

Normal 2: Phase 6 - moves 12m (or 6") and retains velocity. Phase 12 would LIKE to brace and set, but has to spend 3m of movement (or 2") coming to a stop and only has a half move left.

 

Another way to look at it is that to keep your full CV you have to move within your ability to stop on a dime (movement power limitations permitting... a "can't hover" flyer clearly DOES usually retain some velocity between phases... unless they're doing a stall turn or something).

 

Once you go to noncombat, keeping track of current velocity does become a requirement.

 

Edit: The fact we're even DISCUSSING all this counts as a niggle Damn acceleration rule! 

[Surrealone]

Ok, another quirk that bugs me:

6e2 p140 deals with 'damage from falling'.  This is also commonly referred to as 'falling damage'.  Other rules versions have some similar reference to this sort of damage, as well.

 

The problem:
That's quite a misnomer, since falling typically hurts/damages no one.  i.e. It's usually the sudden impact at the end of a fall that tends to do the damage ... not the fall, itself.

 

The solution:

What is commonly referred to as 'falling damage' or 'damage from falling' should really be referred to as "gravity-induced impact damage" (or similar) ... in order to be accurate/correct about the source/cause of the damage.

 

The devil's in the details, right?

[Christopher R Taylor]

The main quirk that annoys me right now is the cost of combat skill levels; you're almost always better off buying OCV and DCV and limiting them instead of buying levels.

 

Also, the "you can lose character points permanently" aspect of Deep Cover and Duplication is just not well considered.

[mrinku]

There are a few things you still need actual CSLs for, like Bouncing, but I see the point. On the other hand, CSLs can be used to boost damage, which CV can't. And the three point CSLs are still a pretty good deal.

 

Captain Bounce with +4 CSLs (Limited group - Shield) 12 pts can have +4 OCV, +4 DCV or +2DC, or use them to bounce.

 

Mister Rigid can buy +3 OCV, +3 DCV (only with Shield use, -1.5) for the same price (assuming you agree with that limit cost).

 

Seems fairly equivalent.