How you recommend building D and D's Bag of Holding and similar artifacts?

[mrinku]

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Object cannot be used while in bag (-1), OIF (-1/2)

 

Change the limitation to something like "hand and held possession only". Normal EDM allows a character and their clothing and personal possessions to travel to the dimension. Leaving stuff there and coming back is already allowed, so this is just a limitation on that practice to what you can fit through the bag mouth. You don't need to mention that an object in another dimension can't be used by someone in the original one (And who knows? Maybe someone else *does* have a spell to visit the bag dimension... beware of cheap Bag of Holding salesmen...)

[Lucius]

 

mrinku: you do get to the solution but I wanted to show how and why that IS a solution and what the problem is to begin with.

 

 

I'm unsure why the owner's STR would be an issue.

Because firstly, the build is expressed as "+X STR" and secondly, because STR in Hero is geometric, not simply additive. Take a look at the build again:

 

Bag of Holding: Enhanced Strength +30, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) [45 Active Points]; OAF (-1), Limited: Only for purposes of Encumbrance (-1 1/2), Limited: Only for things that can fit through opening (-1/2) [11 RP]

 

There's my relatively simple build. If you want to place other restrictions on the bag (like extra time to store/retrieve items), then tack them on. +30 STR would upgrade a 10 STR normal to a 40 STR for encumbrance, allowing him to carry 640 kg without penalty, instead of 10 kg. +60 STR would let him carry 40,000 kg without penalty.

 

edit: had the wrong breakpoints for encumbrance.

 

This magic item is basically making objects disappear (up to a limit of +30 STR worth of encumbrance). Sure, a Hobbit is going to see a greater benefit from it and a Muscleman is going to see a lesser one,

You have that exactly wrong. The Hobbit gets a LESSER benefit and the burly barbarian gets a GREATER benefit.

 

The bag is defined as +30 STR. That gives a "normal" a STR for encumbrance purposes of 40 and it gives a weakling with STR 5 an effective STR of 35 and gives a strongman with STR 20 an effective STR of 50. The normal porter can now carry 640 kg without penalty but the weakling CANNOT. Sure everyone is better off than without a Bag of Holding, but the strongman is better off to the tune of carrying 2500 kg easily.

 

but the same applies to both of them owning an identical pack animal.

No, because the pack animal is not defined as "+30 STR" added to the characters.

 

 

I might be missing something there, but instead of basing it on encumbrance, maybe just make it an object with 30 STR that does its own magical carrying (like a horse) and just happens not weigh anything while doing so. Because magic.

This of course would make it like the pack animal and resolve the issue perfectly. I know I've seen a build of Bag of Holding that basically made it a Vehicle; that might be one way to go. Another is to use this build with a note that it's not really +30 STR but that the 30 STR is the bag's own carrying capacity. That should be worth a small Limitation actually.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary saddle bags of holding

[phoenix240]

Personally, I lean towards the Extra D movement through time option. Its elegant (if a bit pricey) and offers the side effect that variations on bags of Holding have that objects placed in them are preserved perfectly until  removed and objects 'in' the bag don't damage each other. The only minor hitch might come from one purpose Bags of Holding are sometimes used for: Disposals. Drop something unwanted to or dangerous in and just never get it out. 

 

Question: Since its built as Usable as Attack would that mean putting an object in the bag would take a Phase ending Half Phase action? 

[Armory]

Personally, I lean towards the Extra D movement through time option. Its elegant (if a bit pricey) and offers the side effect that variations on bags of Holding have that objects placed in them are preserved perfectly until  removed and objects 'in' the bag don't damage each other. The only minor hitch might come from one purpose Bags of Holding are sometimes used for: Disposals. Drop something unwanted to or dangerous in and just never get it out. 

 

Question: Since its built as Usable as Attack would that mean putting an object in the bag would take a Phase ending Half Phase action? 

 

I would think so.  Would it also take a Half Phase action to pull it back out?

[bigdamnhero]

The problem with the extra STR solution is

 

1. sure the character can now carry 600+kg without penalty, but the gear still weighs 600kg, which comes into play when they're being lifted/thrown or simply climbing a rickety staircase, and

 

2. technically if you hand the bag off to someone else it weighs 600kg for them.

 

You can of course hand wave both those points and call it sfx.

[DasBroot]

I think most of these solutions would fit the bill but  are really expensive - too expensive (aside from the one from APG built exactly because of this issue) - and so a sensible GM would have to decide exactly how to price it in addition to how to build it based on how useful the ability would prove in the game.  In my opinion If it's every bit as useful as the knight's heavy magic armor or the wizards most powerful spells then it should cost similar. If it's less useful then it should cost less. Regardless of what the RAW pricing is.

 

It's like building a smartphone - it *could* be worth over a hundred active points  but should it be?

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's why I like the APGII idea.  Its simple, straight forward, pretty inexpensive, and does the job nicely. It answers all the objections here and neatly handles the concept without a wall of text and over 100 active points to get the job done.

[phoenix240]

It is a pretty useful effect. The character can carry large (in some cases, essential;y unlimited) amounts of gear without weight or obvious signs (or possibly inobvious signs... would a metal weapon in the bag set off a metal detector?) In some cases the materials are perfectly preserved for an indefinite amount of time, immune to wear and tear and available practically at a moment's notice. It even useful for disposal of harmful items (bu them in, never take them out). If the bag is large enough, people could hide in it (more a sack of holding, I guess?).....

 

Of course, the expense might not matter as much in a Heroic game. 

[Durzan Malakim]

None of these builds address some of the more useful qualities of a traditional bag of holding:

• Objects in the bag don't interact with one another. For example, you can put a cask of gunpowder in first and then put in a lit torch without physics and chemistry producing a contents-destroying boom.
• You don't have to search for the items you want to withdraw. You just think about the item and you get it. Granted this is usually also hand-waved for normal non-magical backpacks, but it is undeniably convenient to never have to waste an action looking for what you need.
• Objects may not age or decay. This quality is usually up to the GM discretion. Some GMs rule that items in the bag are outside of time and space and some don't.
• It could be used as the world's best prison/entangle. Put an enemy in bag  and voila problem solved.

[Amorkca]

The D&D bag of holding didn't contain oxygen and people would die of suffocation when in the bag.  A least that's how i remember it!

[Christopher R Taylor]

None of these builds address some of the more useful qualities of a traditional bag of holding

 

 

The Extradimensional Space one does all that.

[Doc Democracy]

None of these builds address some of the more useful qualities of a traditional bag of holding:

 

• Objects in the bag don't interact with one another. For example, you can put a cask of gunpowder in first and then put in a lit torch without physics and chemistry producing a contents-destroying boom.
• You don't have to search for the items you want to withdraw. You just think about the item and you get it. Granted this is usually also hand-waved for normal non-magical backpacks, but it is undeniably convenient to never have to waste an action looking for what you need.
• Objects may not age or decay. This quality is usually up to the GM discretion. Some GMs rule that items in the bag are outside of time and space and some don't.
• It could be used as the world's best prison/entangle. Put an enemy in bag  and voila problem solved.

Lucius' solution also meets these criteria.

 

The bag is not actually holding them, simply represents a time portal to the time when the owner of the bag "removes" them. As such they do not interact with each other nor do they have to be searched for.

 

They will not decay or age as they are moved through time. Should be essentially instantaneous from the held object's perspective.

 

Lucius' build would indeed work for that or for sneaking a group of murder hoboes into a heavily guarded mansion....I think I might need that oxygen limit, or nothing living as a limitation...

 

Doc

[PhilFleischmann]

Emphasis Added

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Saddle Bag of Holding

That doesn't really tell us much.  And it doesn't prevent a person or other living thing from being put in the bag.  How big is the opening?  -1.5 is a pretty big limitation.  How big would the opening be for a -2 limitation?  For a -1 limitation?  For a -0.25 limitation?  For no limitation?

 

The point was the Active Points, that an earlier poster complained about.  When you have to put a huge advantage like UAA, and then limit it with a limitation that takes away most of the advantage, you wind up with a power with a much higher active point value than the utility of the power warrants.  IMO, the better solution would be a smaller advantage that doesn't need to be almost entirely canceled out by a limitation.

[dsatow]

Ah, but because of its special effects (magical frikkin bag) the volume gets hand waved away. Because magic.

 

Volume of a container is nebulous at best anyway. You can strap things onto a pack, for example. The rules use weight to determine encumbrance and doing the magic bag this way addresses that game mechanic.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree.  I feel special effects should not do away with general combat related issues.  Size affects awkwardness of carry (DCV), Perception rolls, positioning in space, etc.  Its too big a characteristic to just wave away in my opinion.  Smaller items and fewer in number, volume generally does not affect play.  But one of the uses of a bag of holding is to contain lots of items, so I would GM volume does matter.  Of course, as a GM, you can wave anything you want.

[phoenix240]

 

None of these builds address some of the more useful qualities of a traditional bag of holding:

• Objects in the bag don't interact with one another. For example, you can put a cask of gunpowder in first and then put in a lit torch without physics and chemistry producing a contents-destroying boom.
• You don't have to search for the items you want to withdraw. You just think about the item and you get it. Granted this is usually also hand-waved for normal non-magical backpacks, but it is undeniably convenient to never have to waste an action looking for what you need.
• Objects may not age or decay. This quality is usually up to the GM discretion. Some GMs rule that items in the bag are outside of time and space and some don't.
• It could be used as the world's best prison/entangle. Put an enemy in bag  and voila problem solved.

 

 

The Extra D Time travel covers some of them. The object aren't "in" the bag so they won't interact but sent forward in time to when you're reach in for them. No time passes for the object so there is no decay. Remove the Only Object Limitation and I suppose you could stuff somene in it but that runs into the question of can you use this build if you never intend to remove the item. 

[mrinku]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree.  I feel special effects should not do away with general combat related issues.  Size affects awkwardness of carry (DCV), Perception rolls, positioning in space, etc.  Its too big a characteristic to just wave away in my opinion.  Smaller items and fewer in number, volume generally does not affect play.  But one of the uses of a bag of holding is to contain lots of items, so I would GM volume does matter.  Of course, as a GM, you can wave anything you want.

 

I take the point, but the normal rules actually *don't* dictate object dimensions except in the most loose manner anyway. You buy a 1d6+1 HKA with "STR Min", "Real Weapon" and OAF and call it a sword but that could be any length and weight within a reasonable range. Leave out the "Real Weapon" and "STR Min" limitations and you can literally say the now fantastic sword has no effect on encumbrance, or weighs 100 grams or something. Even the size classes are very loose. One level of Shrinking could be any where between 1 metre tall and 1.9 m (which is frankly a bit silly, since that technically includes anyone under 6' 3" or so. But you do really need to shrink down to 1m to get the full DCV bonus I guess).

 

A normal container (bag, backpack) has limits because it's a mundane object you don't pay points for, even in Superheroic. A magic container that inherently defies normal physics and which you would pay points for even in a Heroic campaign (the normal rule for magic items) is another matter. Its special effects literally define it. Like any power you state what the desired effect is and then work out how to build it. Ignoring the volume as well as the mass is built into the definition - anything you can put into the mouth of the bag is gone until you reach in and pull it out. There IS a size limit built into that, and it's significant enough to count for a Limitation on the power.

[Lucius]

None of these builds address some of the more useful qualities of a traditional bag of holding:

Of course they do.

 

• Objects in the bag don't interact with one another. For example, you can put a cask of gunpowder in first and then put in a lit torch without physics and chemistry producing a contents-destroying boom.
• You don't have to search for the items you want to withdraw. You just think about the item and you get it. Granted this is usually also hand-waved for normal non-magical backpacks, but it is undeniably convenient to never have to waste an action looking for what you need.
• Objects may not age or decay. This quality is usually up to the GM discretion. Some GMs rule that items in the bag are outside of time and space and some don't.
• It could be used as the world's best prison/entangle. Put an enemy in bag  and voila problem solved.

 

 

Lucius' solution also meets these criteria.

 

The bag is not actually holding them, simply represents a time portal to the time when the owner of the bag "removes" them. As such they do not interact with each other nor do they have to be searched for.

 

They will not decay or age as they are moved through time. Should be essentially instantaneous from the held object's perspective.

Nor is mine the only build that does.

 

The Extradimensional Space one does all that.

Lucius' build would indeed work for that or for sneaking a group of murder hoboes into a heavily guarded mansion....I think I might need that oxygen limit, or nothing living as a limitation...

 

Doc

 

My specific build would NOT work for that. It could however be tweaked to do so, if you really want to.  

 

 

That doesn't really tell us much.

Actually, it does.

 

And it doesn't prevent a person or other living thing from being put in the bag.

That is one of the things it's telling you. That yes, it does prevent exactly that.

 

How big is the opening?  -1.5 is a pretty big limitation.  How big would the opening be for a -2 limitation?  For a -1 limitation?  For a -0.25 limitation?  For no limitation?

 

Now that, admittedly, is something it does not explicitly tell you. Feel free to use whatever answers suit you, although for no Limitation I submit it is no longer a Bag of Holding at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to get an enormous Bag of Holding to go sack Rome.

[phoenix240]

Extra Dimensional Spaces prevent decay and damaging interaction in the contents?

[phoenix240]

 

 

Now that, admittedly, is something it does not explicitly tell you. Feel free to use whatever answers suit you, although for no Limitation I submit it is no longer a Bag of Holding at all.

 

 

 

Or one that can open wide enough to hold anything? Sack of Enveloping.... might have to use that. 

[Lucius]

Extra Dimensional Spaces prevent decay and damaging interaction in the contents?

Yes, because you get to define the properties of the "dimension" in question.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to design a Bag of Devouring, which would have very different properties....

[mrinku]

Yes, because you get to define the properties of the "dimension" in question.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

Assuming the GM agrees on that point, of course. And in particular with magic items that a character has not designed and created themselves, that little aspect is pretty much out of your control. As is the supposed exclusive access to the dimension. One whole mini dimension for each bag, or maybe just a warehouse run by HoldBagCo^TM Deveels? Any customer complains can be referred to our Lawyer Things.

[Lucius]

Assuming the GM agrees on that point, of course. And in particular with magic items that a character has not designed and created themselves, that little aspect is pretty much out of your control. As is the supposed exclusive access to the dimension. One whole mini dimension for each bag, or maybe just a warehouse run by HoldBagCo^TM Deveels? Any customer complains can be referred to our Lawyer Things.

Of course if you're running the game and you want the objects in a bag of holding to bang together, damage each other, get stale, rust, or for that matter turn a shocking pink, then that's exactly what they'll do.

 

If you'd rather that such objects in such containment do none of the above, they don't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says bag of holding or not, the Game Operations Director is left holding the bag

[phoenix240]

Yes, because you get to define the properties of th

 

But I'd imagine that's subject to GM approval like Extra Dimensional Movement?

[Lucius]

But I'd imagine that's subject to GM approval like Extra Dimensional Movement?

 

Of course if you're running the game and you want the objects in a bag of holding to bang together, damage each other, get stale, rust, or for that matter turn a shocking pink, then that's exactly what they'll do.

 

If you're running the game and you'd rather that such objects in such containment do none of the above, they don't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary experiences deja vu

[Christopher R Taylor]

I envision a dimension of nothing but these pockets like a vast honeycomb, with creatures that do nothing but organize, categorize, and keep things tidy.