How you recommend building D and D's Bag of Holding and similar artifacts?

[phoenix240]

Of course if you're running the game and you want the objects in a bag of holding to bang together, damage each other, get stale, rust, or for that matter turn a shocking pink, then that's exactly what they'll do.

 

If you'd rather that such objects in such containment do none of the above, they don't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says bag of holding or not, the Game Operations Director is left holding the bag

 

Yes, I saw your above post after I'd sent the question. But I still prefer your time travel build the  most. It answers many of the issues directly without touching on the hand wave aspect of Extra Dimensional Movement/Spaces. that I'm not entirely comfortable with. I feel more comfortable handwaving the "instant destruction via never intending to remove the item" issue via handwave as its very situational. But that personal preference, nothing more. 

[Durzan Malakim]

I agree that @Lucius has the coolest approach to building a bag of holding using a power. Who doesn't love a time-travel-wormhole/TARDIS? If you go this route you can play around with seeming paradoxes such as being able to withdraw items you don't remember putting in. Do you eventually travel to the past and put items in the bag? Perhaps you can withdraw any item someone else has put in provided you can think about it with sufficient detail. Who knows what could come out of that bag because its time has come.

 

You might also consider modeling the bag as a perk using the vehicle and base rules. This has the advantage that in heroic campaigns you could buy the bag with money rather than spend character points. Since the game effects are holding your stuff and giving it back to you when you ask for it, the only characteristics you need are STR for carrying capacity and INT to understand what you ask for. Typically a bag of holding is an unbreakable magic item, but you can provide BODY and defenses if you want to make it breakable.

[mrinku]

Some of the discussion didn't quite match up with my dim memories of this item from my occasional D&D play. This is what Wiki says:

 

"A bag of holding appears to be a common cloth sack of about 2 by 4 feet (0.61 by 1.22 m) in size. It opens into a nondimensional space (similar to a magic satchel) or a pocket dimension, making the space larger inside than it is outside. Each bag of holding always weighs the same amount, between 15 and 60 pounds (6.8 and 27.2 kg), regardless of what is put into it. It can store a combined weight of up to forty times its own weight, and a combined volume of 30 to 250 cubic feet (0.85 to 7.08 m³). A living creature put in a bag of holding will suffocate after about 10 minutes."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding

 

Nothing about putting things in stasis, very definite weight and volume limits, and a surprisingly heavy inherent weight. 2' x 4' is a fairly sizable sack, too.

 

Of course you can define a make-you-own magic item however you damn like. But the above seems to be the "classic D&D bag of holding".

[g3taso]

They actually have a variety of sizes, with Pathfinder having I-IV and the TSR (oops, showing my age) Dungeons and Dragons having various ones.

 

An nice variation is the Handy Haversack:

     "A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

     While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action"

 

Don't know if that greater power applies in Hero. 

[PhilFleischmann]

Actually, it does.

 

 

That is one of the things it's telling you. That yes, it does prevent exactly that.

 

 

Now that, admittedly, is something it does not explicitly tell you. Feel free to use whatever answers suit you, although for no Limitation I submit it is no longer a Bag of Holding at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to get an enormous Bag of Holding to go sack Rome.

I see, so your limitation specifically is intended to prevent that, without any SFX or logical justification - which is perfectly OK from a game rules standpoint, but what about the logic within the game world?  It seems that by "object" you mean to specifically exclude anything living.  But how does that work within the game?  I can put a man-sized mannequin in the bag, but not a man-sized man.  Why not?  How does that look to the character using the bag (or the person that would be going in)?

[mrinku]

If it's just a bag that's bigger on the inside than out (which is how the traditional RPG one appears to work) there shouldn't be any real issue with putting livestock in there over and above what you'd have to deal with by putting them in a regular bag.

 

Make it airtight and they suffocate. Put in a rabbit and expect it to panic and possibly die of stress, and at the very least to relieve itself over the other contents of the bag. Put a cat and mouse in and the latter will likely kill the former. Throw in a brace of trout and never get the stink of it out (good luck with the rabbit, too...).

[Lucius]

Who doesn't love a time-travel-wormhole/TARDIS?

I used the game mechanic effect of time travel, but the "special effects" don't have to be time travel.

 

If you go this route you can play around with seeming paradoxes such as being able to withdraw items you don't remember putting in. Do you eventually travel to the past and put items in the bag?

No time travel to the past required. Perhaps you forgot, or there could be a reason you forgot. Perhaps it's from a time before you had the bag and a prior owner put the item in. Perhaps it was put in at some point you did not have the bag under your personal control. It's even possible some pickpocket, unaware of the bag's nature, slipped an item there because they were afraid of getting caught with the item they were ditching on you.

 

Perhaps you can withdraw any item someone else has put in provided you can think about it with sufficient detail. Who knows what could come out of that bag because its time has come.

 

You might also consider modeling the bag as a perk using the vehicle and base rules. This has the advantage that in heroic campaigns you could buy the bag with money rather than spend character points.

Whether or not something is built as a Perk is irrelevant to the question of whether it can be bought with money. Thousands of heroic level characters have spent money on things like weapons and armor which are built with Attack and Defense Powers, not with Perks. Conversely, lots of Perks have been bought with Character Points.

 

But buying the Bag of Holding as a Vehicle may well be a superior option to my "time travel" build. I should probably try it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary tagline? It's in the bag.

[Lucius]

I see, so your limitation specifically is intended to prevent that, without any SFX or logical justification - which is perfectly OK from a game rules standpoint, but what about the logic within the game world?  It seems that by "object" you mean to specifically exclude anything living.  But how does that work within the game?  I can put a man-sized mannequin in the bag, but not a man-sized man.  Why not?  How does that look to the character using the bag (or the person that would be going in)?

To one of them, it looks like their friend(?) with a bag pulled over their head. To the other, it looks like the inside of a bag. Probably dark.

 

You didn't ask what it sounds like, but I imagine it sounding like someone saying "Okay, why did you just pull a bag over my head?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pulling bags over the heads of a palindromedary

[PhilFleischmann]

Put a cat and mouse in and the latter will likely kill the former.

What changes in the extra-dimensional space that enables mice to kill cats?  

 

To one of them, it looks like their friend(?) with a bag pulled over their head. To the other, it looks like the inside of a bag. Probably dark.

 

You didn't ask what it sounds like, but I imagine it sounding like someone saying "Okay, why did you just pull a bag over my head?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pulling bags over the heads of a palindromedary

Don't be obtuse.  You said your build prevents people and other living things from being put in the bag.  What happens when someone tries to do this?  How is it that a person-sized statue can be put in the bag, but a person-sized person cannot? 

[Doc Democracy]

I think the easiest answer to this is....magic.

 

It is often the case that we expect magic to be reasonable and consistent when the epitome of magic is unreasonable inconsistency. :-)

[Lucius]

Don't be obtuse.

Well, you start by asking this question

 

Based on Lucius' build, can he trap someone in the bag indefinitely?

which I answer

 

Emphasis Added

 

Not necessarily the best, certainly not the only, but here is one way.

 

Bag of Holding: (Total: 124 Active Cost, 27 Real Cost) Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Points in Time, Physical Location Same As Starting Location), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (124 Active Points); Conditional Power Only on objects that fit in the mouth of the bag (-1 1/2), Limited Power To send object forward to when it is removed from bag (-1), OIF (-1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2) (Real Cost: 27)

Which at first you deny then acknowledge is an answer, then you ask another question

 

 How does that look to the character using the bag (or the person that would be going in)?

Which I also answer 

 

To one of them, it looks like their friend(?) with a bag pulled over their head. To the other, it looks like the inside of a bag. Probably dark.

 

You didn't ask what it sounds like, but I imagine it sounding like someone saying "Okay, why did you just pull a bag over my head?"

And now you accuse me of being obtuse, but you ask what amounts to a restatement of the same question I had just answered 

 

 What happens when someone tries to do this?

Which I suppose I could answer by saying that what happens is that one person pulls a bag over another's head and tugs down on it while the other person is standing there confused and unable to see. Or maybe one person is standing with feet in a bag and another is holding the bag's mouth at the first person's knees and tugging up on it. But if I actually answer any of your questions, I begin to suspect that will only lead to further questions, or the same ones over and over. So I will try to do as you suggest and stop being so obtuse as to remain trapped in your Bag of Questioning here. And I will try to remember to specify "Inanimate object" when that's what I mean in a Limitation or description.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I actually DID answer that last question, and I guess I did. The Bag of Questioning is hard to escape!

[mrinku]

What changes in the extra-dimensional space that enables mice to kill cats?  

 

 

D'oh!

[phoenix240]

Seems like this is case where the definition of "object" just needs to be clarified. Does it mean non living things or object in a more general sense (not a person) or what exactly? The question could come up in a some circumstances. For instance if a party member is killed and his companions need to transport their remains somewhere to be Raised. Can they now be stored in the bag of holding (assuming they'll fit)? 

[PhilFleischmann]

Which I suppose I could answer by saying that what happens is that one person pulls a bag over another's head and tugs down on it while the other person is standing there confused and unable to see. Or maybe one person is standing with feet in a bag and another is holding the bag's mouth at the first person's knees and tugging up on it. But if I actually answer any of your questions, I begin to suspect that will only lead to further questions, or the same ones over and over. So I will try to do as you suggest and stop being so obtuse as to remain trapped in your Bag of Questioning here. And I will try to remember to specify "Inanimate object" when that's what I mean in a Limitation or description.

So your interpretation (which you're certainly entitled to, since it's your build) is that when you try to put a living person in the bag, they get stuck with just their head or feet in the bag, and somehow won't be able to go all the way in.  Which is fine, I suppose.  It just looks a bit odd if you just put a mannequin in the bag all the way with no problem.

 

So the bag can then be used as a "Detect Living Thing" item.  A corpse will go all the way in, but a character Simulating Death will get stuck somehow.  And there are all kinds of other questions that might be raised:  What about AI robots?  What about really small living things?  Insects?  Bacteria?  Can the bag be used to knock germs off of whatever is put in it?  An empty birdcage can be put in the bag, but what if it has a live bird in in?

 

Your original Limitation was really two Limitations in one:  "Inanimate Objects Only" and "Only what will fit through the mouth of the bag."  Builds are more confusing this way, more prone to misinterpretation.  Especially when the two different properties being specified have nothing to do with each other directly.  Something's size is not related to whether it is alive.

[Doc Democracy]

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!

[g3taso]

All this over what appears to be a dispute of SFX.

 

Turning back to this extradimensional space (or whatever). In the D&D original item this space had the air you bring in with you. Does HERO leave this to the talespinner, or is there particular guidance on whether the extradimensional space this thread is actually talking about contains air or not, stands outside time, etc?

[Lucius]

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!

Take the bag, please

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Before I feed it to a palindromedary

[mrinku]

All this over what appears to be a dispute of SFX.

 

Turning back to this extradimensional space (or whatever). In the D&D original item this space had the air you bring in with you. Does HERO leave this to the talespinner, or is there particular guidance on whether the extradimensional space this thread is actually talking about contains air or not, stands outside time, etc?

 

Totally up to the GM to decide, though a player creating the item can pitch whatever they like as well. In essence all HERO special effects are negotiations with the GM having the final word.

 

And especially so when dealing with completely made up stuff like bags of holding. A player might rightly point out that the "distance fallen" column of the falling table is actually wrong, or that the real mass of a sword of lower than the GM always thought, and that sort of discussion deserves a fair hearing. But if they try to claim that a made up magical bag has to or does not have to have air in it they are on pretty shaky ground.

[PhilFleischmann]

If you boys don't stop squabbling I am going to take this bag away from you and then neither of you will get to play with it!

I'm not squabbling.  I'm asking for clarification.

[Doc Democracy]

I'm not squabbling.  I'm asking for clarification.

 

:-) Yeah, I know but both you and Lucius are having the kind of 'discussion' that makes me pleased you are not in the same room.  I dont think that Lucius is interested in providing the kind of clarity you are looking for and, given that you are not likely to be playing in the same game, each of you is quite entitled to a different detail or reality as far as these bags go.  

 

Lucius seems quite content that for people, the bag is simply a bag but for objects it is a magical thing that makes them vanish from reality to appear when someone reaches in their hand to take them out.

 

Both of you would probably have different discussions with your players on exactly how that might be used and probably only when the player decided he (or she) decided to use it as more than an unlimited backpack.  

 

Lucius offered up a build that works for the unlimited backpack in quite an unusual mechanical way and was broad with his advantages and limitations.  he seems content with the build as is.  Why not provide an alternate build for the rest of us to look at, one that you might be more content to use?  

 

I am pretty certain you are going to need to paint inside the lines all by yourself coz it looks like Lucius has packed his drawing stuff away...

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm pretty sure all the examples of the bag require whatever you put in it to fit through the opening, so it doesn't matter if they are alive or not.  A mannequin, a human being: only the parts that fit through that opening get in.

[PhilFleischmann]

:-) Yeah, I know but both you and Lucius are having the kind of 'discussion' that makes me pleased you are not in the same room.

If we were in the same room, we could probably get to a point of clarity a lot quicker.

 

Lucius offered up a build that works for the unlimited backpack in quite an unusual mechanical way and was broad with his advantages and limitations.  he seems content with the build as is.  Why not provide an alternate build for the rest of us to look at, one that you might be more content to use?

I have no such build, that's why I'm interested in this thread.  I want the bag to:

 

* Do what you'd normally want it to do.  That is, hold a bunch more stuff than an ordinary bag.

* Have some sufficient degree of consistency.  That any restrictions on what can be placed in the bag make some kind of sense in the game world.  If you can't put living things in the bag, it looks really weird to be able to put an empty birdcage in, but not be able to put in the exact same birdcage if there's a live bird in it.

* It could have restrictions on living things or not.  A bag of holding is intended for cargo, not for passengers.  But players may think of creative and unintended uses, like hiding themselves inside, or trapping an enemy inside.  Should this be allowed or not?  What happens to living things inside the bag?  Is there air to breathe?  As an animate, free-willed creature, can they simply leave the bag whenever they want to?  Or are they trapped there until the bag holder reaching in for them?  Does a living being in the bag have access to all the other things in the bag?

 

As I write this stuff, I think that the best way to restrict "non-cargo" uses might be to say that there is no air in the bag, but that the open is easily visible and accessible from the inside.  If you're in, you can't breathe, but you can leave any time.  So you can't use it to trap someone or to hide yourself (unless you don't need to breathe).  A bird in a cage in the bag will die, since the bird can't breathe or leave the cage.  A bird not in the cage can simply fly or walk out.

 

But such a restriction isn't even necessarily the "right" build.  A GM might be perfectly happy with creative, unintended uses of a bag of holding.  But you do have to consider whether the players can simply pull the bag over the big boss villain and trap him in there forever, without ever having to fight him.

 

I'm pretty sure all the examples of the bag require whatever you put in it to fit through the opening, so it doesn't matter if they are alive or not.  A mannequin, a human being: only the parts that fit through that opening get in.

That was my original understanding of Lucius' build as well, but I was wrong. In Lucius's build, it does matter.

[Doc Democracy]

All those questions 'could' be encompassed in Lucius' build but it would appear that, if he was running the game, they would not. That would be a conversation he would have with his table.

 

What I am saying, is tell us what you think the Bag of Holding should be able to do and not do. I think that all we are talking about is the frills. The core mechanic works brilliantly and could be enlarged or diminished in function to taste. Then the discussion is all about numbers and how much you think it should cost.

 

What I meant was, give us your take on the Bag of Holding (mechanics free) and then what limitations you might place on the Lucius build to achieve that. We can agree or critique from there....

 

:-)

[phoenix240]

IMO, In setting, the bag is going to look unusual in any case. Its a magical bag that holds an incredible perhaps unlimited amount of stuff as longs as you can fit it through the opening. Its might literally look like the 5 pd sack that holds 10 pds of stuff...or 100 or a 1000. Its magic, magic is weird, often with weird limits that aren't consistent. But all that would be (to me) stuff to work out if it came up in the game, sfx and gm discretion. 

 

For example my call would be if "object" means nonliving things only putting a bird cage with a bird in it in the bag would result in a bag with an inhabited Bird cage in it like any other bag. The magic fails to work. Trying to stuff a person in it gets you, at best, a person with a bag over how ever much of them can fit inside.

 

Other odder things, I'd have to make a call based on the intent of the bag and how I treat things like animate but not technically alive things in that campaign like golems and undead (or intelligent robots, if such things exist). 

 

But we allot of things like pretty fast and loose. For people that like tighter definition, work it out before hand and definitely defining terms would probably be better. 

[Armory]

I'm pretty sure all the examples of the bag require whatever you put in it to fit through the opening, so it doesn't matter if they are alive or not.  A mannequin, a human being: only the parts that fit through that opening get in.

Stick your hand in the bag, shake hands with your future self taking something out!