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What would Hero Lite be like?


IndianaJoe3

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I've been thinking a bit about what Hero Lite should be, if it existed. It has to let potential players enjoy the full Hero experience without overwhelming them. It's also OK if it has obvious missing pieces, because it's not supposed to be complete. It has to be a proper subset, in that every legal Hero Lite character is legal in the full rules as well. Understanding the Lite rules should mean the player has a good grasp of the system as a whole.

 

What I would include:

  • Standard Heroic (175/50) and low-powered superheroic (300/60) power level guidelines
  • All Characteristics, except OMCV/DMCV
  • Skills that follow the 9+(STAT/5) model (partial list)
  • Background skills
  • Martial arts (partial list)
  • Transport and weapon familiarities (partial list)
  • Attack Powers: Blast, Darkness, Entangle, Flash, Hand Attack, TK
  • Body Affecting Powers: Desolidification, Extra Limbs, Stretching
  • Defensive Powers: PD/ED, Flash Defense, Knockback Resistance
  • Life Support (partial list)
  • Movement Powers: Flight, Leaping, Swimming, Teleportation
  • Sense Affecting Powers: Darkness, Flash, Invisibility
  • Sensory Powers: Enhanced senses (partial list)
  • Advantages: AoE (radius, cone, Explosion), Armor Piercing, Autofire, Does Knockback, Indirect, Ranged, Variable Advantage, Variable SFX
  • Limitations: Charges (simple charges only), Focus (simplified), Range Limitations, Requires a Roll (simplified)
  • Multipowers
  • Complications: DNPC, Hunted, Physical Complication, Social Complication
  • Combat: Basic/martial maneuvers, knockback/knockdown, PRE Attacks, pushing

 

What I would not include:

  • Adjustment powers
  • Mental powers
  • killing attacks
  • Talents
  • Automaton Powers
  • Skills that don't require a roll (except martial arts)
  • Skill levels
  • Change Environment, Density Increase, Growth, Images, Luck, Multiform, Power Defense, Reflection, Regeneration, Resistant Protection, Shape Shift, Shrinking, Summon, Transform
  • Variable Power Pools
  • Combat: Most of the Grab options, optional maneuvers, Hit Locations/ Disabling/Impairment, Bleeding

 

These lists are not exhaustive. Generally, I'm trying to avoid the more complicated parts, and also to have deliberate omissions. I'm also trying to allow some cool builds.

 

The more I think about, these might also work as guidelines for a GM trying to introduce people to Hero.

 

What does Herodom at large think of this?

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I'd leave Multipowers out of it. If you're going to have powers in, keep it very basic.

 

On the other hand, I'd leave Killing Attacks in as they're pretty much baked into every genre bar the fluffiest 4-colour Superhero ones. Guns doing normal damage is just going to confuse everyone, especially when a 6d6 normal attack instead of a 2d6K for a powerful handgun has no chance of causing serious damage to a normal, let alone a Heroic. Naturally, that would need you to leave Resistant Protection in.

 

My advice would be to focus on a popular Heroic genre as the default (I'd go with Action Movies) and build for that without powers.

 

Don't need Transport Familiarites. Everyone drives cars by default and any Pilots or Wheelman types can just take the Combat Piloting/Driving skills. Likewise for Weapon Familiarites... just go with a version of everyman skills (people who you'd expect to know how to use guns and swords know how to use guns and swords).

 

I think you do need to keep Combat Skill Levels, but just use 3 point Small Group ones to keep it simple. Pure CV is all very well, but Heroic caps that out and skill levels help offset "1/2 CV" penalties better.

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ooh!  Well, I think you would have to take a real think about what you want to promote.

 

If you really want HERO Lite, then you want the play of the system to come into focus and provide a taster of the power building flexibility.  Personally I would leave characteristics out of it.  I would provide a couple of templates that cover the main archetypes of the genre the book was meant to reflect.

 

I would have a very cut down power building side to it.  Choose powers with add-ons - those add-ons would be altering the power (like AP) or  beefing it up (like additional DCs).  This would allow some customisation but not the mega-disorienting level of detail that it is in the main books.

 

I think everyone can handle skills but I might leave levels etc out of it - they conflate characteristics and powers and that is complexity that should not exist in a Lite product.

 

I would then have a bundle of weird talents or some other such thing that would be related colour to the genre being reflected by the Lite book.

 

What would need to be considered in advance would be, which genre, the point value of the characters to be created, the balance of lethality you want built into the game (reflecting the genre chosen) and the caps you would put on powers etc.  You would then need to decide the balance of powers, skills and talents for each archetype - they should (for interests sake) be different for each one (reflecting the archetype and the points spent getting to the right CV, STUN, BODY and END).

 

I would have a well-designed, colour character sheet for each archetype that shouted out the genre being reflected with all of the core system stats reflected there.

 

I would also have a chapter at the end explaining what HERO is, what has been done and how GMs and players might further customise these archetypes and powers using the full HERO System if they wanted and if they begin to chafe at the restrictions in the Lite rules.

 

 

personally I would go with superheroes as the first book, it is cool and where HERO first began - I think I would look to do a Teen Titans level game with at least one adventure, half a dozen fleshed out villains and at least one organisation.  

 

If I was to do a Greyhawk style game, then I would go to town on the skills but leave out the Powers build and get two or three magic styles (with a decent spell list for each) in there - one for wizards, one for clerics and another for the kind of charms and hedge magic that anyone could pick up.

 

That's what I would do...

 

 

Doc

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I'd leave Multipowers out of it. If you're going to have powers in, keep it very basic.

 

On the other hand, I'd leave Killing Attacks in as they're pretty much baked into every genre bar the fluffiest 4-colour Superhero ones. Guns doing normal damage is just going to confuse everyone, especially when a 6d6 normal attack instead of a 2d6K for a powerful handgun has no chance of causing serious damage to a normal, let alone a Heroic. Naturally, that would need you to leave Resistant Protection in.

 

My advice would be to focus on a popular Heroic genre as the default (I'd go with Action Movies) and build for that without powers.

 

Don't need Transport Familiarites. Everyone drives cars by default and any Pilots or Wheelman types can just take the Combat Piloting/Driving skills. Likewise for Weapon Familiarites... just go with a version of everyman skills (people who you'd expect to know how to use guns and swords know how to use guns and swords).

 

I think you do need to keep Combat Skill Levels, but just use 3 point Small Group ones to keep it simple. Pure CV is all very well, but Heroic caps that out and skill levels help offset "1/2 CV" penalties better.

 

Multipowers are in because they enable flexible builds. They're also (IMHO) not all that complicated, especially if they are only fixed slots.

 

I exclude Killing Attacks both to keep things simple (only one method of rolling damage), and to give players incentive to upgrade to the paid product. Skill Levels get left out for similar reasons.

 

I do see your point about Transport Familiarities, but Weapon Familiarities do get more use.

 

 

ooh!  Well, I think you would have to take a real think about what you want to promote.

 

If you really want HERO Lite, then you want the play of the system to come into focus and provide a taster of the power building flexibility.  Personally I would leave characteristics out of it.  I would provide a couple of templates that cover the main archetypes of the genre the book was meant to reflect.

 

I would have a very cut down power building side to it.  Choose powers with add-ons - those add-ons would be altering the power (like AP) or  beefing it up (like additional DCs).  This would allow some customisation but not the mega-disorienting level of detail that it is in the main books.

 

I left Characteristics in because they'll need to be explained anyway. Building your own character is (IMHO) an essential part of the Hero experience, so HL should let players do that. I'm also deliberately excluding any sort of setting, because this is intended as a free, promotional product. There's nothing wrong with a free setting or adventure, but I don't see it as being part of the same product.

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A "Hero Lite" should be a stripped down set of rules, a setting book, and an adventure all in about 50 pages.  Only include the powers and abilities you need for the adventure.  The idea is to get them playing, get them to understand the basics, and then get them to upgrade to the full rules.

 

I remember an old D&D starter set that had rules for going up to about 5th level.  They had some pregen characters, and only included the rules for those characters.  If there wasn't a pregen bard, then they didn't include any rules for bards at all.  Somebody who had never played an rpg before could pick it up and be playing in 10 minutes.  They had a few dungeon maps and some basic monsters to fight as well, including a very young dragon that you could take on once you hit 5th level.  It was a perfect starter set.

 

Let's say you had a Hero Lite book based around the X-Men (or some clear X-Men stand-ins).  Include half a dozen simplified character sheets of the most recognizable characters.  Include the rules for their powers.  Give a couple of maps, one for the X-Mansion, one for a villain base, one for a town, wherever the adventures are gonna take place.  Then you include stats for goons and robots, some throw-away villains, and then rules for Magneto, who you confront at the end.  You don't need to include the rules for any skill or ability that your pregens don't have.  It isn't important how Summon works if nobody has Summon.

 

Champions Complete is simple enough for people to upgrade to.  You just have to get people used to some of the game mechanics and the concepts first.  Having something they can pick up and play is much more important than giving them a partially simplified version of the game system.

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Thinking about this overnight, I think you do have to cut loose *either* Heroic or Superheroic.

 

If you stick to Superheroes you can lose a lot of skills, since the focus is basically on powers. Possibly take pre-4e versions of Champions as a model? 3e gets everything into less than 100 pages and can definitely be condensed - it's a nice open layout with a lot of art and you won't need some sections. 

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IMHO,

 

Hero Zero Calorie would have to be so light that you wouldn't be able to build your own character to suit which is a fundamental advantage of HERO.  For a supers realm, you would get pre-constructed characters to play.

 

Hero Light would probably be not supers, but heroic level and have a limited subset of characters and equipment.  This is probably be the best way to show off HERO's capabilities while still leaving a strong desire to buy the core product.  The game would probably be stand alone and based on a horror movie(Friday the 13th or Dawn of the Dead) or action film (Hunger Games or Maze Runner).

 

Sidekick is closest to Basic D&D back in the day.

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OK, since I guess I'm the illegitimate father of this thread ;) I'll toss in an opinion.

 

Let's take something most people can relate to regardless of their tastes in gaming genres: say a special forces, elite commando squad with cutting edge gear and skills. No powers per se', but maybe little edges or advantages. Call it ESWAT, seal team 7, special agents, etc.

 

You get some characters with a few options to swap skills and stats around, some modern gear, basic combat, stealth, action rules and some missions like rescue hostages, find and neutralize a bomb, kill or capture a terrorist leader, or just capture or kill a criminal gang on their turf.

 

No full, custom character creation, but bits of buying skills and advantages/disadvantages. No real powers creation but some limited powers like "danger sense" or "lightning reflexes".

 

But yes, some skill use rules, combat, etc. Enough of the system to serve as a rules sampler and an example of how powers rules are used to make some special abilities.

 

Maybe throw in a few pregenerated full characters from SF, fantasy and superhero genres so people who have absorbed the herolite rules fan get some idea of what a full hero character from various genres can be and do.

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There's at least two discussions going on here.

 

1) HERO Lite in the same vein as GURPS Lite - a streamlined version of the core rules with enough rules to get you going in a historical setting. I think the current GURPS lite is 32 pages, which is a good print on demand page count.

 

2) A convention handout to let you play an introductory scenario with pre-generated characters. That can be MUCH smaller as it only needs to explain the powers and gear used.

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I think mnriku has got it: a "conventional hero" book that gives basic system mechanics. This might be a free printed product and would be paired with convention packs of characters and basic scenarios mean to be ran in 4-6 hours. A convention pack could contain some characters and a modular scenario a gm can mix n match to make it uncertain to anyone familiar with the pack.

 

Scenarios would be PDF and the gm could print the character sheets and maps. They could be for various genres. Fantasy, hero, sf, modern, etc.

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A true HERO Lite, IMO, would have no powers creation. It might have powers, but they'll be pre-fabs and the like. It might have some base pre-gens/archetypes, but then have customization options for them.

 

Honestly, the base mechanics are pretty easily, but the overall presentation is what freaks people out. I'd happily kickstart alternative character creation method books if the option came up. A simplified method book would compliment the main books nicely, since sometimes you want a nice and easy front end (like a smartphone) instead of REAL ULTIMATE POWAH (Unix command line).

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Comic book instructions FTW. Especially for Champions :)

 

And seriously, why did Hero ever stop with that? The silly Foxbat strips in Champions II and Champions III were a real highlight! And they do it a bit in M&M. Illustrations with word balloons and captions work SO much better for a superhero game/genre book/supplement.

 

Though... I have to admit to not having too much confidence with the current standard of art direction. I've said this before, but IMHO it has gone downhill a lot since 3e and 4e. 

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It would be like Champions 2nd edition.

 

Honestly, Champions 2e is essentially "Hero Lite" by 6e standards (rules changes notwithstanding).

 

I thought the same in regards to 3e. Never did own 2e, though my old GM had it (and possibly 1e).

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There's at least two discussions going on here.

 

1) HERO Lite in the same vein as GURPS Lite - a streamlined version of the core rules with enough rules to get you going in a historical setting. I think the current GURPS lite is 32 pages, which is a good print on demand page count.

 

2) A convention handout to let you play an introductory scenario with pre-generated characters. That can be MUCH smaller as it only needs to explain the powers and gear used.

 

 

I think mnriku has got it: a "conventional hero" book that gives basic system mechanics. This might be a free printed product and would be paired with convention packs of characters and basic scenarios mean to be ran in 4-6 hours. A convention pack could contain some characters and a modular scenario a gm can mix n match to make it uncertain to anyone familiar with the pack.

 

Scenarios would be PDF and the gm could print the character sheets and maps. They could be for various genres. Fantasy, hero, sf, modern, etc.

Ever since I read GURPS Lite I've been thinking HERO really ought to create something like this, just for an easy, no frills introduction to the system. Something playable right away, but with only a limited number of options, etc., so there is incentive to dive into all the other source material HERO is selling.

 

What's new to me is this idea of a "Convention HERO" package. It would be very genre-specific for the particular adventure presented for the convention, and there could be different packages for different genres and conventions. The more I think about it, the more I like this. The best way to learn the game is by playing it, and the quicker people can get to the playing and not the reading, the easier it will be to learn.

 

I can see a 10-page summary of the rules, description of a pre-gen character's characteristics/abilities/powers (probably even a different packet for each character), and some suggestions for how to use the character. Maybe there could be a very simplified character creation process with some pre-fab options offered for the players, with a minimum of details about the rules regulating those choices. There should be lots of references to the larger rules as an incentive to branch out and pick them up to learn more. Perhaps there could even be a few plot seeds if people want to continue playing with their characters after the convention.

 

I keep using this as a model, but imagine showing up to a convention with Justice Inc. and playing for 4 hours, and then sending them home with that book? It's a complete game in the 1e/2e model (as zslane points out) and does a great job of glossing over the basics and getting the player started. The Empire Club alone is a great campaign "home base" for any future adventures a player may want to run, so all they really need is that little book for the next few weeks or so.

 

Once people become comfortable with the basics, they'll be looking for more possibilities with the Complete books or the full 6e rules and all the sourcebooks that go with them.

 

This sort of thing is of course just a fantasy, and likely wouldn't ever get approval from DOJ. But I think at the very least very basic "Learn to play HERO" events could be held at conventions. I plan on doing something like that as soon as I feel a little more ready to take it on.

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There's at least two discussions going on here.

 

1) HERO Lite in the same vein as GURPS Lite - a streamlined version of the core rules with enough rules to get you going in a historical setting. I think the current GURPS lite is 32 pages, which is a good print on demand page count.

 

2) A convention handout to let you play an introductory scenario with pre-generated characters. That can be MUCH smaller as it only needs to explain the powers and gear used.

 

I was thinking more the former (although I would like to include sample characters as well). I'd probably go with superheroic instead of historical. Maybe call it Champions Lite? Now that I think about it, that does sound like a better name, and it synergizes nicely with Champions Complete.

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I really reckon you could squeeze an updated 3e Champions/6e Champions pruned back to 3e content into 32 pages (aside from anything else, the word count per page in 3e is quite low, with a relatively large font size). Be ruthless with what skills to include for a start. Leave out almost all campaigning text. People know how superheroes work!

 

You'd be looking to allow people to build a basic superhero to fight others with and not too much else. Carefully designed sample characters to act as build examples (on ONE page each WITH character portrait!). Since the character builds largely ARE the scenario for a basic super-fight you'd not need much column space to describe the sample adventure.

 

Brick. Energy Projector. Martial Artist. Gadgeteer.

 

Fighting against VIPER mooks led by one tough villain designed to be able to beat any of the individual heroes one-on-one, but who would go down in a two on one battle. Call it a scenario for 2-4 players and adjust the number of mooks accordingly. Probably two plus two per extra hero.

 

Probably tune Speeds to be factors of 12, avoiding 5 and 7 in particular. No point in telegraphing quirks... SPD 3 VIPER goons, SPD 6 Villain, Martial Artist and Energy Projector, SPD 4 Brick and Gadgeteer. No one has the same DEX except the mooks.

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