Gravity and Desolid

[CptPatriot]

This is based on a question I fielded with Steve @ http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92252-use-of-avad-with-tk-and-simulating-gravity/

 

Can a Change Environment set to simulate gravity affect a Desolid Target?

[Cantriped]

Sure, it is a given that certain special effects bypass Desolidification. For example, if you define an attack as a Gas Attack (using NND for example), it works against Desolidified Characters (that don't also have Self-Contained Breathing) regardless of whether or not the attack paid for Affects Desolid. The rationale being that by default you still have to breath even if you can pass through solid objects (CC 58 explicitly notes in the second to last bullet point).

 

Therefore, if a character can still Fall (take Falling damage) while Desolid, than they can also be subjected to any power which simulates that mechanic as well.

[mrinku]

Yes. There might be discussion about how Desolid might affect Terminal Velocity if it reduces density, but changing the force of gravity just alters how fast you reach Terminal Velocity (which is where your velocity (not acceleration) is balanced against drag.

 

It has a more dramatic effect on short falls.

[Lucius]

Can a Change Environment BE set to simulate gravity?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not an actual tagline, This is a simulated palindromedary.

[Cantriped]

Kind of... but not really by RAW. However Steve gave a suggested value in the link (which is highly unusually of him, he must be tired of all the gravity threads...) of 25 points per level (with 1 level being equal to 1 G).

 

Similarly I've written flat cost Change Environment combat effects for my house rules which allow the character to manipulate gravity in several ways (amplify it, reduce it, or change its vector).

[Amorkca]

Steve Gives a reference to p 218 in SH...  What is SH?

[Beast]

Star Hero

Steve Gives a reference to p 218 in SH...  What is SH?

[Doc Democracy]

Desolid is a strange beast because it causes issues in almost occasion when you come to think about it in strict terms.

 

If a desolid character is not affected by gravity then why do they walk on the surface like everyone else instead of bouncing up or simply flying off into space as the planet leaves them behind. If they are affected by gravity, then why do they not sink into the surface of the planet drawn ever downward, unhindered by the solid mass of the planet pushing back up at them...

 

Other questions like how do they see (interact with light) or breathe (interact with oxygen) etc all rear their heads as well. Desolid must be the ultimate handwave power simply because we all know what we mean - we want a character than can ghost through walls and ignores attacks as they pass right through them.

 

My take on gravity is that the character is affected because it makes most sense and that any desolid character has learned how to use residual surface tensions between the ground and air to resist being pulled into the planet's core. As such, gravity based environmental effects work (though, inconsistently, I do not allow gravity based attacks to affect unless they have bought "affects desolid").

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Cantriped]

It is weird to be having different parts of this discussion in two threads simultaneously

 

Desolid is a strange beast because it causes issues in almost occasion when you come to think about it in strict terms.

If a desolid character is not affected by gravity then why do they walk on the surface like everyone else instead of bouncing up or simply flying off into space as the planet leaves them behind. If they are affected by gravity, then why do they not sink into the surface of the planet drawn ever downward, unhindered by the solid mass of the planet pushing back up at them...

Other questions like how do they see (interact with light) or breathe (interact with oxygen) etc all rear their heads as well. Desolid must be the ultimate handwave power simply because we all know what we mean - we want a character than can ghost through walls and ignores attacks as they pass right through them.

My take on gravity is that the character is affected because it makes most sense and that any desolid character has learned how to use residual surface tensions between the ground and air to resist being pulled into the planet's core. As such, gravity based environmental effects work (though, inconsistently, I do not allow gravity based attacks to affect unless they have bought "affects desolid").

:-)

Doc

I agree that it is a very strange beast! It falls victim to being written to accommodate extant characters, as opposed to being written to serve a mechanical purpose.

 

The mechanical assumption seems to be that Desolidification is somewhat selective by default regardless of SFX.

Your mass doesn't actually disappear* (someone using Affects Desolid TK still has to be able to Lift your mass to pick you up), which is why normal Gravity still effects you (per RAW anyway). Although you cannot take falling damage if you never actually 'hit the ground', sans Flight that would require falling forever (since eventually you fall into the center of the earth and hang there, pulled along in its orbit until you starve or suffocate).

You can choose to interact with solids (to walk on the ground, or climb a ladder, for example). You can also choose to sink into the earth (at a rate up to terminal velocity, since you are effectively choosing to 'fall' a limited distance into the ground.

*Unless you use the variant Density Reduction/Desolidification rules from one of the APGs (which do explicitly affect your mass, until as Desolid it becomes 0 Mass).

 

As for how they see and breath. Breathing is necessary for character life by default (barring Life Support that Desolidifidation explicitly does not grant). The rules explicitly note that attacks which target your breathing bypass Desolidification (without needing Affects Desolid). So the mechanical assumption is that your lungs automatically choose to interact with gasses to that you can breath, and your eyes automatically choose to interact with reflected light so that you can see. The same goes for every other sensory organ except Touch, which it is explicitly noted doesn't function.

[Surrealone]

This is based on a question I fielded with Steve @ http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92252-use-of-avad-with-tk-and-simulating-gravity/

 

Can a Change Environment set to simulate gravity affect a Desolid Target?

Certainly -- if the Change Environment is purchased with the Affects Desolidified advantage ... or if gravity-based effects are one of the things defined as impacting the desolidified target while desolidified.

[Sean Waters]

All desolid does it allow you to pass through stuff and stuff to pass through you and you can ignore damage and effects from powers that are not built with the appropriate power modifier unless they affect your flavour of desolid anyway.  It does not mean you sink into the Earth (unless you do so deliberately), or that you can walk on air and it specifically (IIRC) does not prevent you falling.

 

You have to separate the perception of the power, the 'logical consequences' of whatever your SFX might be from the actual mechanics of the power.

 

In short if you were to (for example) buy Change Environment to reverse gravity locally, everything would then fall up, including desolid characters.  OTOH if you were to buy increased gravity to crush your enemies, it would not damage a desolid character unless you buy the appropriate power modifier.  The general effect of gravity is a meta-effect, the application of damage is a built effect.