Stretching and Neck as Limb

[massey]

Of course you can look around a corner with Stretching.  One of the biggest problems with the Hero system is that somewhere along the way, people started thinking you had to pay a lot of points for every damned thing.

 

I can look around a corner without buying a power at all.  

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, massey said:

Of course you can look around a corner with Stretching.  One of the biggest problems with the Hero system is that somewhere along the way, people started thinking you had to pay a lot of points for every damned thing.

 

I can look around a corner without buying a power at all.  

True. One thing that I like though about buying powers is that then a certain effect is defined and less likely (and I said less) to be argued. 

 

( For my self, I don’t mind paying for full indirect on stretching to avoid the partial indirect on stretching).

[mrinku]

Possibly confusion arises from previous editions where Stretching was limited to limbs. The basic 6e version of the power definitely extends that to include other body parts, with "limited body parts" being a Limitation (no idea how 5e is defined). Whether or not a neck is a limb doesn't matter - it's a body part that can be lengthened.

 

You only need to buy extra powers if you start doing things with your lengthened body parts that you couldn't do at closer range. Stretching does NOT give you the ability to grab with your feet. You could stretch your tongue to lick someone at further range than normal (yes, I'm looking at YOU Mister Flexible!), but if you want to use it to grab an object, you'll need Extra Limbs. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I found my Rubberneck write up and apparently I did by neck as a limb.

[mrinku]

Yeah, buying Extra Limbs as a good idea for Stretchers was never in dispute. That allows grabbing by coiling/wrapping with necks, tongues, legs and torsos, after all. 

[Tech]

First, getting to the original topic, I'd say if you don't buy Extra Limb (neck), you can do things with your neck but it's very limited: you can move your head. However, your GM may allow it.

 

I disagree with having to buy another power to look around the corner. Steve Long did also say in that post:

" Now, all that being said — what the GM’s willing to allow a Stretching character to do “for free” is entirely up to him. Some might say that Peeking Around Corners is so trivial an ability that a character with enough Stretching can do it for free in their campaigns. Others might not. "

 

I consider Stretching something of a travel power so if someone stretches their neck out to look around a corner, I think it's allowable. However, it just means the stretcher has a lot more hexes of body to target for attackers, and possibly a lower DCV while looking.

[Sidume]

 

On 11/23/2017 at 10:18 AM, Tech said:

...

 

I consider Stretching something of a travel power so if someone stretches their neck out to look around a corner, I think it's allowable. However, it just means the stretcher has a lot more hexes of body to target for attackers, and possibly a lower DCV while looking.

 

I'd look at it this way as well.  i don't think Clairsentience is appropriate because you still have be where you could see/hear/etc.  You have to move into the hex.  I wouldn't make a character with Growth pay for Clairsentience to look over a building when using the power.  The same thing should apply to stretching. 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 11/16/2017 at 8:36 PM, Surrealone said:

Sure, but then you might as well have an Extra Limb with Stretching, since you've basically constructed a power to simulate exactly that.  Less filling, tastes great...  plus I seem to recall RAW verbiage somewhere about not using one power to build what another one already does.  Can't quite place where or what the exact verbiage is; but I'm sure someone will round it up or correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

Well, we should get rid of Stretching entirely, then.  All it does is add Range to certain abilities.

 

However, it also does so differently than other Range abilities, so I'd retain it.  Stretching your neck to look around a corner does not seem so valuable it should be prohibited for a Stretching character.

[Cassandra]

N-Ray Sight [Only to look over walls]

[Surrealone]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

However, it also does so differently than other Range abilities, so I'd retain it.  Stretching your neck to look around a corner does not seem so valuable it should be prohibited for a Stretching character.

You and I agree on this ... I was simply making the case that an Extra Limb ought to be required to do that with the neck if the neck were to be use in prehensile ways.

 

Consider:
Your arm is considered a limb, and it's normal/sane for you to be able to reach it around a corner to feel along the opposing wall.  Stretching would let you do -more- of that sort of reaching.  But you can't inherently do that with your neck, right? (Unless., say you're an alien or something ... one that has two necks and no arms ... i.e. you just switched around what was considered limbs on the alien character.  But let's stick to human for simplicity, shall we?)  My stance is that because you can't inherently do that with your neck, simply buying stretching isn't enough, you'd need to also have the neck as an Extra Limb ... to let it do things it normally could not.  (Put another way, without taking the neck as an Extra Limb, I don't think you should get any limb-like use from the neck (including reaching around corners to have a looksee) without paying for it.  At most, stretching only straight up would be appropriate, since that's not so limb-like in use.)

[Hugh Neilson]

With its limited flexibility, I can stretch my neck to see around a corner, but I have to be very close to the corner.  If  my neck could lengthen out to a meter or more, I could manage the same from further away.  Paying for the neck as an extra limb should mean it can grapple, carry things, type on a keyboard, etc. - all things that I cannot manage with my ordinary neck.

[dmjalund]

a neck is already a short limb. you use it to head butt someone

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

With its limited flexibility, I can stretch my neck to see around a corner, but I have to be very close to the corner.  If  my neck could lengthen out to a meter or more, I could manage the same from further away.  Paying for the neck as an extra limb should mean it can grapple, carry things, type on a keyboard, etc. - all things that I cannot manage with my ordinary neck.

6e1 p284 is clear: "At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.)"  It also goes on to say that some creatures are more malleable than this, but in my experience that doesn't tend to include most humanoids -- and especially not you, Hugh (at least not based on the intractability of some of your posts! ).

 

Take a giraffe -- it has the longer neck you speak of (presumably Stretching with Neck Only and Always On limitations) -- but it can't bend its neck left/right around corners to take a looksee because its neck is not articulated for that; it's articulated for up/down bending and has only marginal side/side flexibility of the neck.  (I actually watched some giraffe videos before posting this response -- not kidding!)  Similarly, your neck is not properly articulated for bending sideways around a corner -- even if you could stretch it 1m.  That's where I believe Exta Limbs comes in ... because the articulation required to bend a neck around a corner is a pre-cursor to the types of more extreme bends/twists required for it to be prehensile.

 

If someone doesn't want full prehensile ability with the Extra Limb, fine, take a limitation on that, but in general I wouldn't condone giving away the utility of the ability to bend the neck in unnatural ways ... for free.  It -is- useful ... so it should cost -something-.  And per RAW it's not, by default, included with Stretching in most cases (but the GM could, of course, rule otherwise).

 

 

14 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

a neck is already a short limb. you use it to head butt someone

It is a limb that is NOT articulated for more than 180 degress of motion left/right, 180 degrees of motion up/down, and up to 180 degrees of motion from left shoulder to right shoulder -- in most humans.  i.e. The vertebrae and muscles would not, even if it was longer, allow the human neck to form a U shape.  Per RAW, Stretching won't give you that, anyway unless the GM rules differently.  So we're back to Extra Limbs to get that kind of functionality ... sans GM fiat.

[Christopher]

What does "stretching your neck to look around a corner" actually give you that just walking around that corner does not?
In both cases your head (with your headmounted sensory organs like Eyes and Ears) is around the corner.
 

The only thing that comes to mind is being harder to spot. A head by nature has a smaler profile then a whole human body, so "only your head" is more likely to be missed. Effectively all you are doing is using existing cover to aid your Hide Check/Combat Values.

Looking around the corner with stretching, looking over the ledge on a american roof or similar cover: Pretty much the same. Stretching guy can look around the corner a bit more comfortably then dressed-like-a-bat guy. He might even be able to pull back slightly further in less actions (undoing his stretching rather the moving away from the corner). But other then that, nothing was really gained by this whole excerise.

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

What does "stretching your neck to look around a corner" actually give you that just walking around that corner does not?
In both cases your head (with your headmounted sensory organs like Eyes and Ears) is around the corner.
 

The only thing that comes to mind is being harder to spot. A head by nature has a smaler profile then a whole human body, so "only your head" is more likely to be missed. Effectively all you are doing is using existing cover to aid your Hide Check/Combat Values.

Looking around the corner with stretching, looking over the ledge on a american roof or similar cover: Pretty much the same. Stretching guy can look around the corner a bit more comfortably then dressed-like-a-bat guy. He might even be able to pull back slightly further in less actions (undoing his stretching rather the moving away from the corner). But other then that, nothing was really gained by this whole excerise.

What does it give you that just walking around the corner doesn't? Here's your answer:

Cover (if only doing the looksee) ... or Cover plus full ranged OCV (if doing the looksee and performing a ranged attack, too)

 

Consider that with >90% cover (only head visible), attackers suffer a -8 OCV penalty to hit your character.  I could see a GM reducing that to a -6 or even a -4 penalty to the attacker's OCV if your character Stretched his/her head and neck (only) a long way around the corner ... thereby reducing effective cover to something the GM felt was closer to 75%-90% instead of >90%.  With that in mind, in combat, that sort of penalty can be very significant - especially in combination with Stretching an arm/hand around the same corner to take a few ranged shots at the opposition with a gun -- without the body being visible (or even right at the corner's edge, which is relevant for walls made of sheetrock, where someone might assume they could just shoot through the wall).

 

Note that without being able to put the head/neck around the corner for said looksee, just putting the hand around said corner and squeezing off rounds will incur a BIG OCV penalty .... since s/he's effectively shooting blind (i.e. at 0 OCV ... absent penetrative vision or some other compensatory power, of course - which I'm leaving out of the mix for simplicity's sake). Given the above, putting the neck/head around the corner allows the character to maintain full OCV (instead of dropping to 0CV) ... while also allowing for very significant partial cover OCV modifiers to his/her opposition.

 

Example:
Let's say we're talking about a character with OCV and DCV 8 ... and let's assume the GM says partial cover for hand/arm plus head/neck exposure just around the corner (a short distance) is -4 to attacker OCV (in total) to represent 75% cover.  The user of this ability (for head/neck as well as arm/hand) avoids shooting blind (i.e. keeps 8 OCV s/he'd otherwise lose by just Stretching the hand around the corner without the head/neck) ... and also gains the benefit of the -4 to attackers due to cover.  That's a total of 12 CV preserved by the ability to put the head/neck around the corner for the looksee.

 

And people don't feel this sort of penalty avoidance is worth any CP?  Wow. I find that shocking, since I doubt if I played in these people's games they would just hand me 12 CV worth of PSLs for free (or 'free' with with my measly 1" purchase of Stretching)  ... but using the above example, that's exactly the sort of thing being suggested by folks who don't think a few more CP should be spent on Extra Limbs to cover the neck.

 

[Armory]

6 hours ago, Surrealone said:

And people don't feel this sort of penalty avoidance is worth any CP?  

 

 

I don't.  It's just peeking around a corner.  If you have to slap a Limitation on Extra Limb that prevents you from using it like a limb, that seems to make the power itself extraneous.  This is a situational use (and benefit) of Stretching, I doubt it's going to come into play much at all, except for Stretch Armstrong to see around a corner once in awhile.

 

If Stretch Armstrong can stretch his legs a few meters and see over the top of the wall, without having to purchase Extra Limb, then I fail to see why craning his neck around a corner should be any different.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Surrealone said:

What does it give you that just walking around the corner doesn't? Here's your answer:

Cover (if only doing the looksee) ... or Cover plus full ranged OCV (if doing the looksee and performing a ranged attack, too)

 

Consider that with >90% cover (only head visible), attackers suffer a -8 OCV penalty to hit your character.  I could see a GM reducing that to a -6 or even a -4 penalty to the attacker's OCV if your character Stretched his/her head and neck (only) a long way around the corner ... thereby reducing effective cover to something the GM felt was closer to 75%-90% instead of >90%.  With that in mind, in combat, that sort of penalty can be very significant - especially in combination with Stretching an arm/hand around the same corner to take a few ranged shots at the opposition with a gun -- without the body being visible (or even right at the corner's edge, which is relevant for walls made of sheetrock, where someone might assume they could just shoot through the wall).

 

 

What prevents a fellow with no Stretching tilting his torso to peek around the corner, reach his hand around that corner and fire a ranged attack?  Precisely nothing.  It's a common tactic in a gunfight.  The Stretching character has gained a small advantage in having his torso further away from the corner.  This small advantage is part of the value he gains for the points he invested in Stretching.

 

9 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Note that without being able to put the head/neck around the corner for said looksee, just putting the hand around said corner and squeezing off rounds will incur a BIG OCV penalty .... since s/he's effectively shooting blind (i.e. at 0 OCV ... absent penetrative vision or some other compensatory power, of course - which I'm leaving out of the mix for simplicity's sake). Given the above, putting the neck/head around the corner allows the character to maintain full OCV (instead of dropping to 0CV) ... while also allowing for very significant partial cover OCV modifiers to his/her opposition.

 

The character standing at the corner can also put his head and hand around the corner at the same time, thereby getting off a few rounds without incurring any OCV penalty and having the same cover bonus that the Stretching character has.  The advantage gained from Stretching is the ability to do the exact same thing a character without stretching can do, from further away.  That is why one would purchase Stretching!

 

What would a character with no Stretching gain by purchasing your version of Limited Extra Limb for the sole purpose of peeking around a corner by twisting his neck, rather than leaning over with his torso?  Seems like he gets the same ability to preserve CV, the same ability to see and shoot around the corner and no extra benefit from the character who spent no points on the ability to articulate his neck.  With no extra benefit, why should there be a point expenditure required?

[dsatow]

19 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Take a giraffe -- it has the longer neck you speak of (presumably Stretching with Neck Only and Always On limitations) -- but it can't bend its neck left/right around corners to take a looksee because its neck is not articulated for that; it's articulated for up/down bending and has only marginal side/side flexibility of the neck.  (I actually watched some giraffe videos before posting this response -- not kidding!)  Similarly, your neck is not properly articulated for bending sideways around a corner -- even if you could stretch it 1m.  That's where I believe Exta Limbs comes in ... because the articulation required to bend a neck around a corner is a pre-cursor to the types of more extreme bends/twists required for it to be prehensile.

 

I'd don't think this is a good argument point.  Since I think stretching allows you to wind your arm around obstacles it shouldn't, given you only have one joint in your arm between the shoulder and wrist.

 

I'd probably allow it, just because I think a stretching special effect fits comic books and the power gives leeway to the GM.  I think this is another one where the GM should allow or disallow based on their feeling for their game.

[Surrealone]

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

What prevents a fellow with no Stretching tilting his torso to peek around the corner, reach his hand around that corner and fire a ranged attack?  Precisely nothing.  It's a common tactic in a gunfight.  The Stretching character has gained a small advantage in having his torso further away from the corner.  This small advantage is part of the value he gains for the points he invested in Stretching.

You are correct in that nothing prevents a fellow with no Stretching from tilting his torso to peek around the corner and reach his hand around that corner to fire a ranged attack.  However, you completely glossed over the fact that doing so would REDUCE the amount of cover possessed by said fellow (compared to if said fellow only exposed head and hand).  By pushing the torso around the corner, too, said fellow would radially increase in the amount of body mass exposed -- resulting in a statistically significant reduction in the Behind Cover penalties applied to said fellows' attackers. 

 

By pushing the torso around the corner, said fellow would lose somewhere between from 2-4 effective DCV that he would retain if only head/hand were stretched around the corner (without the largest portion of the body .. .the torso ... also being exposed).

 

So let's do some math to determine what you want to give away:

2 DCV costs, what? 10 Active Points?  And 4 DCV costs what, 20 Active Points?  So you're effectively claiming the ability to retain 10-20 Active Points worth of effective DCV is a 'small advantage' (to use your words) gained by merely having say 2m of Stretching which costs exactly 2CP (since Stretching is stupidly cheap) ... with no need to pay more for Extra Limbs?

 

Don't you see something a bit wrong with the amount of bang one is getting for the CP buck, here?  Shouldn't the ability to retain that 10-20 Active Points worth of effective DCV cost a bit more than 2 CP in Stretching?  Is it so much to ask/expect it to cost 7 CP, instead (in the form of 2m Stretching plus 1 Extra Limb)?  If it is too much to ask someone to spend 7CP instead of 2 CP ... for the useful ability that lets someone retain 10-20 Active Points worth of effective DCV when Stretching around cover, please explain why you feel this is somehow inequitable; I'm struggling to find the inequity you seem to see in charging for Extra Limbs.

 

11 hours ago, Armory said:

 

I don't.  It's just peeking around a corner.  If you have to slap a Limitation on Extra Limb that prevents you from using it like a limb, that seems to make the power itself extraneous.  This is a situational use (and benefit) of Stretching, I doubt it's going to come into play much at all, except for Stretch Armstrong to see around a corner once in awhile.

 

If Stretch Armstrong can stretch his legs a few meters and see over the top of the wall, without having to purchase Extra Limb, then I fail to see why craning his neck around a corner should be any different.

1) Again, RAW on 6e1 p284 says: "At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.)"

2) See the red text, above, in this post as to why - craning his neck around the corner (which entails bending it in a way it's not articulated to bend) means he doesn't also have to put his torso around the corner -- resulting in retention of more cover.  Thus, craning the neck around the corner is useful ... in the form of providing ~2-4 effective DCV (10-20 Active Points in effective DCV) the character would lose if he tilted his torso around the corner.  And you want to give away that effective 10-20 Active Points worth of DCV ... for 2CP (the cost of 2m Stretching)?  Why is 7 CP (2m Stretching + 1 Extra Limb) so outrageously unreasonable given how many active points worth of benefit I just showed you is conferred?  You're talking a huge give-away in active points, here .... that's the 'utility'.

 

In a game where you're supposed to get what you pay for, it seems like 2 CP for 2m Stretching is a ridiculously good deal under most of you as GMS .... for anyone who has any idea how to combine stretching with Behind Cover.

 

 

58 minutes ago, dsatow said:

 

I'd don't think this is a good argument point.  Since I think stretching allows you to wind your arm around obstacles it shouldn't, given you only have one joint in your arm between the shoulder and wrist.

 

I'd probably allow it, just because I think a stretching special effect fits comic books and the power gives leeway to the GM.  I think this is another one where the GM should allow or disallow based on their feeling for their game.

Again, RAW on 6e1 p284 says: "At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.)"

i.e. Barring GM fiat, the neck is not a limb like an arm or a leg ... so it should fall into that 'much more rarely' category.  i.e. Per RAW's guidance, if you have 100 stretching characters all show up in your game, most should be stretching arms ... less often there will be some who can do legs ... and much more rarely, other body parts like the neck should be stretchable by some of those characters.  (And probably only with good reason/justification -- i.e. the character is a Contortionist with appropriate skills, is Double-Jointed, is an anatomically different alien species, etc.)

 

If you want to handwave that, it's certainly your call ... but when you do it, consider the giveaway I just pointed out, above, as it basically amounts to giving away (in terms of effective DCV cost) 5x-10x the active point cost of 2m Stretching when Stretching is properly leveraged with cover by a player.  What a great return on investment for the Stretching character whose neck you just handwaved into rubberiness, right? I can think of very few purchases I can make that, when properly leveraged, provide ROI this good within the Hero System... especially as it pertains to defensive postures.

 

By comparison, if you charge for the Extra Limb, that return on investment, while still positive (and comic-booky), is a much more modest 1.4-2.9x the active cost of 2m Stretching. This seems to be much closer to the norm in terms of defensive posture ROI, IMHO.

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Surrealone said:

You are correct in that nothing prevents a fellow with no Stretching from tilting his torso to peek around the corner and reach his hand around that corner to fire a ranged attack.  However, you completely glossed over the fact that doing so would REDUCE the amount of cover possessed by said fellow (compared to if said fellow only exposed head and hand). 

Why do you insist stretching guy would not get the same penalties as "lean around the corner guy"?

[Armory]

 

Quote

2) See the red text, above, in this post as to why - craning his neck around the corner (which entails bending it in a way it's not articulated to bend) means he doesn't also have to put his torso around the corner -- resulting in retention of more cover.  Thus, craning the neck around the corner is useful ... in the form of providing ~2-4 effective DCV (10-20 Active Points in effective DCV) the character would lose if he tilted his torso around the corner.  And you want to give away that effective 10-20 Active Points worth of DCV ... for 2CP (the cost of 2m Stretching)?  Why is 7 CP (2m Stretching + 1 Extra Limb) so outrageously unreasonable given how many active points worth of benefit I just showed you is conferred?  You're talking a huge give-away in active points, here .... that's the 'utility'.

 

Barring GM fiat, the neck is not a limb like an arm or a leg ... so it should fall into that 'much more rarely' category.

 

 

Yes, craning the neck around the corner is useful.  That's why he paid points for Stretching, it's a result of the situation and the SFX of the Power combined with common and dramatic sense.  If the PC is defined as being able to stretch his neck, then IMO he gets to poke his head around corners when that situation presents itself. 

 

In addition, I don't get why twisting one's neck from side to side doesn't fall under normal neck movement.  It's how I would normally peek around a corner, by turning my neck.  I'm just doing it with a six-foot (or whatever) neck.  So I don't see that as handwaving anything.  If I wanted to snake my head through some plumbing, then we're talking bending it in a way it's not articulated to bend, but that isn't this. 

 

Quote

  i.e. Per RAW's guidance, if you have 100 stretching characters all show up in your game, most should be stretching arms ... less often there will be some who can do legs ... and much more rarely, other body parts like the neck should be stretchable by some of those characters.  (And probably only with good reason/justification -- i.e. the character is a Contortionist with appropriate skills, is Double-Jointed, is an anatomically different alien species, etc.)

 

Sure, okay.  So in this case we're talking about the one guy in the universe who can stretch his neck.  So, to me, that means this one guy can use his Stretching to stand back from a corner, stretch his neck out, and turn his head sideways to see what's what.  I don't think there's much danger of imbalance.  In fact, statistically there will be many more of those Stretchers who can elongate their legs to peer over the top of the wall instead of around it.  I'm not seeing that a stretchy neck is any more of an advantage than stretchy legs in this scenario.

 

I wouldn't go with Extra Limb unless the player intends to use it as such; e.g. wrapping it around things and squeezing or throwing them.   

 

I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just explaining the way I see it.  If you believe this to be some kind of exploit then by all means adjust accordingly.

[dsatow]

3 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Again, RAW on 6e1 p284 says: "At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.)"

i.e. Barring GM fiat, the neck is not a limb like an arm or a leg ... so it should fall into that 'much more rarely' category.  i.e. Per RAW's guidance, if you have 100 stretching characters all show up in your game, most should be stretching arms ... less often there will be some who can do legs ... and much more rarely, other body parts like the neck should be stretchable by some of those characters.  (And probably only with good reason/justification -- i.e. the character is a Contortionist with appropriate skills, is Double-Jointed, is an anatomically different alien species, etc.)

 

I am not saying your point cost justification is wrong.  Its just your example is bad.  If all stretching did was lengthen one's are and left joints as they are, you could not make any of the characters that stretching is supposed to allow because the power stretching allows for the extended limb to be flexible.  You could not make mister fantastic, elongated man, plastic man, stretch armstrong, etc. 

 

In RAW on 6e1 p285, it states "Assuming a character has enough meters of Stretching, he can use Stretching to reach around walls or obstacles, reach over or around a target to hit him from behind even though the character’s standing in front of him, and so forth. us, Stretching is inherently Indirect (see 6E1 335) in some respects." 

 

In order to reach around a wall and punch/jab someone (forward thrust, not swing), your arm needs either to have more joints or be more elastic.  If you need a visual example, have someone of your height stand face to face with you and try to punch/jab the center of their shoulder blades with great force.  Mechanically, your arm will not allow you to do it.  

 

As for the inherent indirect advantage of stretching, on 6e1 p285 it even notes that stretching can give you the indirect power on blast or RKA. "Since Stretching has some inherently Indirect properties, a character with Stretching can effectively treat many Ranged attacks as Indirect, by Stretching the emitting body part (or the hand holding the weapon) before attacking (unless the GM forbids this for some reason)."  And since choke hold is considered using a limb (6e2p91), I don't see why not to allow a fairly infrequently bought power to be able to stretch their neck to see around a wall.

 

Again, its not that I don't see your point about the advantages of the point cost.  I just don't see your example about the giraffe neck as all that convincing since 

1. Previous character examples done by HERO games show elastic characters as being able to stretch around things without the need for elbows.  Even their artwork shows this.  See 4e p84 under stretching.
2. The neck is considered a limb for the martial maneuver choke hold.
3. The RAW also states Stretching is Indirect.

[Christopher]

Again: Why do you think "stretch your head around the corner" guy would suffer less reduction to his cover then "peek around the corner" guy?

It is literally the same body parts past the same cover.

 

Is somebody seriously sugesting that you get to look/fight around the corner without any penalties jsut because you got stretching? Who? And what is the reasoning?

[Ninja-Bear]

Iirc, stretching in 4th and previous editions, stretching had no inherent indirect properties. So a giraffe’s neck example would be valid for base stretching bought in those editions.

[Hugh Neilson]

23 hours ago, Surrealone said:

You are correct in that nothing prevents a fellow with no Stretching from tilting his torso to peek around the corner and reach his hand around that corner to fire a ranged attack.  However, you completely glossed over the fact that doing so would REDUCE the amount of cover possessed by said fellow (compared to if said fellow only exposed head and hand).  By pushing the torso around the corner, too, said fellow would radially increase in the amount of body mass exposed -- resulting in a statistically significant reduction in the Behind Cover penalties applied to said fellows' attackers. 

 

By pushing the torso around the corner, said fellow would lose somewhere between from 2-4 effective DCV that he would retain if only head/hand were stretched around the corner (without the largest portion of the body .. .the torso ... also being exposed).

 

He does not have to thrust his torso beyond the wall to bend just enough to move his head beyond the corner far enough for a look-see, and reach out with his gun hand.  In both cases, only the head, a bit of neck hand and wrist and a bit of forearm are viable targets.  A normal human being can peek around a corner without thrusting their entire torso out into the open.

 

19 hours ago, Christopher said:

Again: Why do you think "stretch your head around the corner" guy would suffer less reduction to his cover then "peek around the corner" guy?

It is literally the same body parts past the same cover.

 

Is somebody seriously sugesting that you get to look/fight around the corner without any penalties jsut because you got stretching? Who? And what is the reasoning?

 

EXACTLY

 

23 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Again, RAW on 6e1 p284 says: "At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.)"

i.e. Barring GM fiat, the neck is not a limb like an arm or a leg ... so it should fall into that 'much more rarely' category.  i.e. Per RAW's guidance, if you have 100 stretching characters all show up in your game, most should be stretching arms ... less often there will be some who can do legs ... and much more rarely, other body parts like the neck should be stretchable by some of those characters.  (And probably only with good reason/justification -- i.e. the character is a Contortionist with appropriate skills, is Double-Jointed, is an anatomically different alien species, etc.)

 

If you want to handwave that, it's certainly your call ... but when you do it, consider the giveaway I just pointed out, above, as it basically amounts to giving away (in terms of effective DCV cost) 5x-10x the active point cost of 2m Stretching when Stretching is properly leveraged with cover by a player.  What a great return on investment for the Stretching character whose neck you just handwaved into rubberiness, right? I can think of very few purchases I can make that, when properly leveraged, provide ROI this good within the Hero System... especially as it pertains to defensive postures.

 

By comparison, if you charge for the Extra Limb, that return on investment, while still positive (and comic-booky), is a much more modest 1.4-2.9x the active cost of 2m Stretching. This seems to be much closer to the norm in terms of defensive posture ROI, IMHO.

 

So what is the extra cost for a character who can stretch his arms, legs, neck, torso and any other part of his anatomy?  There is no extra cost.   So, applying your interpretation, how do we determine which of those 100 characters gets to Stretch more flexibly, stretch their legs, necks or whatever?  The RAW does not say they need to be double-jointed, contortionists or anatomically different as a species.  In fact, if those differences as a species are advantageous, they cost points.

 

Stretching lets the character stretch.  It provides an element of Indirect to his limbs (and other stretching parts).  "Arms only" would be limited, much like Reach on a weapon is purchased as limited stretching.  It may provide an advantage when appropriate cover is available, but I would rule that a character whose hand and head are visible to the opponent he is attacking (and they must be - or he could not see and shoot them) has the same measure of cover whether they are standing at the corner (no stretching required) or stretching from 100' away from the corner.

 

Your logic fails because Stretching does not give the character more cover.  It's like saying a character with +3 meters of Running received bonus DCV because he can run from 1 meter behind cover, run 13 meters to new cover and run a further meter behind it, while firing a Strafing shot, when a guy without that extra Running could not reach the new cover in a single move.  That extra access to cover is available because he paid for extra movement, not because he purchased extra DCV.