Using held actions

[DasBroot]

Just want to make sure I'm using/ruling on held actions correctly - due to the nature of my current game (damage vs defense levels) players are really starting to use them:

 

1 - Held Action used defensively: Always goes first.  A character with dex 15 Holds and is later attacked by a character with Dex 13 so he decides to Martial Dodge.  Easy.

 

2 - Held Action used offensively as a 'trigger':  A wrestler brick Holds his action for when Speedy Jim, who keeps using Passing Strike on him, gets within reach.  When Speedy Jim gets within reach but before Jim attacks the brick wants to use Sacrifice Throw.  Requires a dex roll? (Which the brick will probably lose anyways)

 

3 - Held action used defensively on behalf of another:  A support character Holds his action and wants to use Aid: PD on a team-mate that is successfully hit before damage is rolled (he didn't just use it beforehand because he wants to see which of his team-mates is actually being attacked this phase but doesn't want to waste it on a 'miss' so wants to go between hit and damage).  Dex roll again? Or no dex roll because it's defensive in nature? Or even possible?

 

I think that's it.

[mrinku]

The CC text (p.137) states that using a held action defensively, or a defensive Abort will always go before an attack. Otherwise it's DEX rolls.

 

Any maneuver with Dodge, Block or Abort elements is always considered defensive. And while Holding An Action doesn't define defensive actions as such, Aborting An Action does, and I think it's reasonable to use the same principles.

 

So my reading is (1) Martial Dodge first, attack second; (2) DEX rolls; (3) GM's decision about it being a valid defensive action or not. If so, goes first. If not, DEX rolls.

[Surrealone]

Using your numbering, above, in my responses:

1. Your handling of this matches what I've seen in every game I've played since 3rd Edition.
2. This one's tougher and ultimately a GM call.  I've seen many GMs use DEX rolls (per your handling), but I've also seen many GMs apply both actions at the same time (and hey, why not?  the brick can soak it, right? and it's cinematically appropriate, right?).  That said, I believe most would agree that if the brick held his action to wait for Speedy Jim's pass at him, he should (for cinematic reasons, since combat and movement are only chunked according to SPD to make things manageable) at a bare minimum get a shot at Speedy Jim even if Speedy Jim goes first ... assuming the brick is still conscious.  The GMs I've seen use DEX rolls would tend to apply negative OCV modifiers to the brick based on how much he missed his DEX roll ... just to be fair to Speedy Jim since he is, after all, already moving away from the brick in the case where the brick failed the DEX roll.  I personally like the shots landing simultaneously for cinematic reasons .... or the waiting brick at least getting a chance (with negatives to OCV based on failed DEX roll) if he misses a DEX roll -- but ultimately the call is up to the GM and what the GM prefers, cinematically.
3. This one's also a GM call ... especially since Aid may or may not be deemed defensive in nature.  If I were GM'ing, I'd treat an Aid to any characteristic 6e considers defensive (a la the halving rule for Adjustment Powers) as a defensive action ... and permit the Aid with no DEX roll needed ... UNLESS the Aid were ranged and the person using it had to make an attack roll to hit the target of the Aid (in which case I would require a DEX roll to see what happens first ... because of the required attack action).  There is, of course, an exception to the ranged Aid ruling as well -- if the source of the ranged Aid had the potential target of the ranged Aid 'Covered' (per the maneuver) in advance of the attack the Aid is intended to help mitigate, then the attack roll was effectively already made (in advance of the attack the Aid is intended to help mitigate) and I'd again require no DEX roll.

[mrinku]

Keep in mind that in case 2, the Brick has zero chance of hitting Speedy first unless he holds his action, so it does in fact give him a chance of going first (even if the DEX rolls are in Speedy's favour). I'd also agree that he's interrupting Speedy halfway through Speedy's action, so both attacks are resolved when Speedy is next to the Brick.

[dsatow]

Personally, I usually do the following.

1. Any single defensive action will go first.  This is a defensive action for yourself not another.  So placing a barrier to protect a teammate would not be considered a defensive action.  Getting up so you can get full DCV would.  
2. Any declared specific held action would go first.  So if the brick says, I am holding my punch until speedy gets within range.  The punch will go first.  By RaW, a martial throw of any type held for a passing target will get to go before the passing attacker attacks.
3. An unspecific held action will need a dex off or go after the rest of the actions on that segment of the phase.  So, if a PC goes, "I blast the first teammate who gets attacked" is a little vague and would need to Dex off.  A PC who has an undeclared hold, goes after the action last specified unless said action is item 1.  So a PC can have a undeclared action, see the group of terrorists charge forward to attack, and can't interrupt the terrorists action.
4. I allow any stupidly heroic action to take precedence at any time.  If you want to jump in front of Doctor Destroyer's Universal World Shattering Hyper Gun to block it from incinerating little Sally Mae, go ahead.  If you want to do that and abort to put up/push defenses while doing that, that's not stupidly heroic, so no.  Note that the stupidly heroic hero still needs to block the incoming ray with their body.

[dmjalund]

how much should it cost to add to your DEX roll for held actions?

[Hyper-Man]

An Overall Level.

[mrinku]

24 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

how much should it cost to add to your DEX roll for held actions?

 

Normal DEX characteristic roll skill levels are 2pts. I THINK you are allowed to apply limitations to those (you can't to 2pt CSLs, but these aren't CSLs). If you can, probably a -½ limitation, since this is probably the most common use of pure DEX rolls. Most agility tests end up using actual skills based on DEX, which Characteristic Roll skill levels don't apply to.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: held action vs a character with higher DEX

 

See 6e2 page 20

The Null Zone

[Hyper-Man]

THE “NUll ZONE”
As the text indicates, a Held Action is lost at the beginning of the Segment on which the character’s next Phase occurs.  us, there’s a “null zone” between the start of that Segment and the start of the character’s Phase (which begins on his DEX in that Segment).  is may create some di culties if a character wants to Hold his Action in anticipation of something his foe will do when the foe has a higher DEX.
In this situation, the GM should apply some common sense and dramatic sense. If a char- acter wants to Hold his Action in anticipation of a foe’s conduct, the GM could use the Held Action to, in essence, move the character “up” in the initiative order for the Phase, so he can “go  rst” before his foe only for the purposes of starting another Held Action. But if players start abusing this privilege, or it causes problems, the GM should stop allowing this and revert to the strict letter of the rules.

[dsatow]

Generally, I am all for the GM exception noted on that page for the Null Zone issue.

 

The GM may, if he wishes, let a character Hold his Action until his next Phase begins, but if he chooses to use the Held Action before his Phase occurs, it takes the place of his Phase — he cannot have two Phases in the same Segment.

 

Side note:  All the above things I said about holding an action in my games still apply.

[Hyper-Man]

If an offensive abort/interupt is the goal I would allow an appropriate Analyze skill* to act as a complimentary roll for the Fastdraw/DEX roll off.

 

*combat, style etc.

[DasBroot]

 

Good points all around.  I like DSA's specfic beating the general a lot so I'll probably go with it.  Waiting to generally 'jump in' can go after whatever made you decide to jump in is resolved - waiting for a specific situation resolves before that situation.

 

I have another, though - 

 

4 - Held action to move

 

By the rules you cannot move as an abort (for good reason) - that's what moves like dive for cover are for.

 

Could you move as a hold, though?

 

ie:  Cheshire knows that Ogre is going to move next to him and punch him out. Cheshire has a higher dex and declares he's holding his action to teleport 10 meters when Ogre moves next to him.

 

It's not quite the same as aborting to dive for cover with teleport because Cheshire has declared this is what he's waiting for as opposed to holding in order to react later.

 

It's very close to it, however.

 

I think I might let it slide with a dex roll off (since moving isn't a defensive action, even used defensively).  My gut leans towards saying 'You just described dive for cover', though (and that's really what this is - except better because succeeding doesn't leave you prone). 

 

"Why yes my group is made up of old school Magic the Gathering players, how did you know?"

[mrinku]

Moving off a Held Action is fine. DEX rolls will still be required. It's the same deal as using an attack in that situation. In fact, Cheshire doesn't really need to declare what he's waiting for, though the GM might give him a small bonus for doing so (maybe a DEX roll bonus). Or the GM may allow him to use the Cover rule instead.

 

It's definitely not the same thing as Dive For Cover. Dive for Cover has the Abort element, requires a DEX roll (which limits the distance you can move and is capped at a half move as well) and leaves the character Prone. Move has no Abort element (and cannot be aborted to), requires no roll to see how far you can move and does not leave the character Prone.

 

And while Teleport can be used "as the means for moving the character" in relation to Dive For Cover, that doesn't replace the other Dive For Cover rules, especially the DEX roll to succeed and determine the maximum distance travelled. It's just being used instead of Leaping, Running, Flight etc. The GM might rule that the character doesn't have to end up Prone for Flight or Teleport, but perhaps has some other similar penalty such as "being disoriented" and ½ DCV until they take a half phase to "get up", like a Flyer who's knocked back. 

 

A Held Action Teleport has none of those restrictions. You can even half-move and attack with it.

 

Aborts and Held Actions use some of the same rules (i.e. defensive actions go first) and it can be instructive to compare them, but they aren't the same thing.

[dsatow]

13 hours ago, DasBroot said:

4 - Held action to move

 

By the rules you cannot move as an abort (for good reason) - that's what moves like dive for cover are for.

 

Could you move as a hold, though?

 

 

Yes, this was asked of Steve Long and he said it was legal given a specifically defined held.

 

You generally can't move as an abort without Diving for Cover.  However, you can trigger a movement power bought with the trigger advantage if you abort to do something which is the trigger (like block) or you can move as a part of a flying dodge.  This make flying dodge incredibly cheap for a skill which raises your DCV by 4 and moves you out of harms way without dropping to 1/2 DCV.  The flying dodge has also been confirmed by Steve Long as functioning that way.

[DasBroot]

14 hours ago, mrinku said:

Moving off a Held Action is fine. DEX rolls will still be required. It's the same deal as using an attack in that situation. In fact, Cheshire doesn't really need to declare what he's waiting for, though the GM might give him a small bonus for doing so (maybe a DEX roll bonus). Or the GM may allow him to use the Cover rule instead.

 

 

Makes sense.  Without a declaration of intent, though, what's the difference between using a held action to move or aborting to a held action to dive for cover? It seems like you'd be crazy to DFC in that situation (which I suppose I might be ok with, as it's meant to be a desperate action to protect yourself or another - the later of which a held move can't do.)

[DasBroot]

11 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

Yes, this was asked of Steve Long and he said it was legal given a specifically defined held.

 

You generally can't move as an abort without Diving for Cover.  However, you can trigger a movement power bought with the trigger advantage if you abort to do something which is the trigger (like block) or you can move as a part of a flying dodge.  This make flying dodge incredibly cheap for a skill which raises your DCV by 4 and moves you out of harms way without dropping to 1/2 DCV.  The flying dodge has also been confirmed by Steve Long as functioning that way.

 

Funny story - even the most dedicated min-maxer in my group once wrote up an instantly resetting triggered teleport to 'automatically dodge' any attack made against him... then said 'no... just, no.' himself and erased it.

[Cantriped]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:26 AM, DasBroot said:

Cheshire knows that Ogre is going to move next to him and punch him out. Cheshire has a higher dex and declares he's holding his action to teleport 10 meters when Ogre moves next to him.

As I understand it: Cheshire is free to Hold Action "Until Ogre Moves Next To Him". However at that point, Ogre wants to punch Cheshire at the same time Cheshire want to teleport away from Ogre. This is literally a perfect text book example of when the "Who Goes First" rules apply (CC 137). Because Cheshire's action isn't covered under the list of "Defensive Actions" (defined under Aborting An Action, CC 138), both characters attempt DEX Rolls. If Ogre wins, he gets to punch Cheshire first (who most likely teleports away if he's still conscious). If Cheshire wins, he gets to teleport away, and Ogre has nothing to punch, and may continue to advance, or hurl an object instead (since he hadn't yet committed to the action like he would have if Cheshire had Aborted to Dive For Cover, Ogre can still decide to do something else).

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, Cantriped said:

As I understand it: Cheshire is free to Hold Action "Until Ogre Moves Next To Him". However at that point, Ogre wants to punch Cheshire at the same time Cheshire want to teleport away from Ogre. This is literally a perfect text book example of when the "Who Goes First" rules apply (CC 137). Because Cheshire's action isn't covered under the list of "Defensive Actions" (defined under Aborting An Action, CC 138), both characters attempt DEX Rolls. If Ogre wins, he gets to punch Cheshire first (who most likely teleports away if he's still conscious). If Cheshire wins, he gets to teleport away, and Ogre has nothing to punch, and may continue to advance, or hurl an object instead (since he hadn't yet committed to the action like he would have if Cheshire had Aborted to Dive For Cover, Ogre can still decide to do something else).

 

The held action would take place first in the description because the specified action is Ogre moving towards him, not throwing a punch.  If Ogre went up to shake his hand, the held action should still take place.  Even if the specified action is something like the punch, I (this is my personal ruling) would still allow Cheshire to teleport away with out a Dex roll unless Ogre surprised him. 

[mrinku]

7 hours ago, DasBroot said:

 

Makes sense.  Without a declaration of intent, though, what's the difference between using a held action to move or aborting to a held action to dive for cover? It seems like you'd be crazy to DFC in that situation (which I suppose I might be ok with, as it's meant to be a desperate action to protect yourself or another - the later of which a held move can't do.)

 

Well, one OTHER big difference between a Held action move and Dive For Cover is that as a Defensive abort, Dive For Cover doesn't require rolling off against that other guy's DEX - it's just a simple DEX roll to see how far you can travel. A Held action move is always more likely to fail to happen before the other guy's attack lands.

[Cantriped]

50 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Even if the specified action is something like the punch, I (this is my personal ruling) would still allow Cheshire to teleport away with out a Dex roll unless Ogre surprised him. 

When you chose to Hold Action, you Hold until a condition occurs, and your action always takes place afterwards. If you Hold Action using the CC example of "I wait until he strikes", you don't get to take your held action until after his strike has resolved. That is why my example condition was "I wait until Ogre moves next to me." because that is the action that comes immediately before Ogre can Strike me, and by using the aforementioned condition, my Held Action will come up at the same time as Ogre's Strike action. Which leads to a DEX off because Teleporting isn't a Defensive Action unless I Dive for Cover; which I obviously don't want to do for some reason since I could have simply Aborted my Held Action to do so instead of dealing with all this complicated BS.

 

I think it is set up that way on purpose so that there is no way for a character to simply "not be wherever they are hitting" without making a DEX Roll (and therefore have a chance of failure).

[DasBroot]

6 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

 Which leads to a DEX off because Teleporting isn't a Defensive Action unless I Dive for Cover; which I obviously don't want to do for some reason since I could have simply Aborted my Held Action to do so instead of dealing with all this complicated BS.

 

That 'for some reason' is not wanting a penalty for distance moved and ending up prone at destination if they succeed or prone in current hex if they fail.

 

So, cake and eating it basically.  Also another use for dex in 6th - my group has tended to dump it in favor of lighting reflexes for initiative or skill levels with dex skills if they're a dex-skill using type (most aren't) since it was decoupled from OCV/DCV.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrinku]

6 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

When you chose to Hold Action, you Hold until a condition occurs, and your action always takes place afterwards.

 

 

That's not how the text reads.

 

Firstly, you can declare that you are waiting for a lower DEX, you don't need to specify anything more than that. But we'll stick with the reactive declaration.

 

If one of the two actions in question is a defensive one, it goes first. That's it, end of discussion. If both are defensive and it matters, it'd be a DEX roll.

If both are non-defensive, you roll DEX to see which one acts first.

[Cantriped]

9 minutes ago, mrinku said:

If one of the two actions in question is a defensive one, it goes first. That's it, end of discussion. If both are defensive and it matters, it'd be a DEX roll.

If both are non-defensive, you roll DEX to see which one acts first.

You are confusing the rules for "Who Goes First", "Holding An Action", and "Aborting An Action".

 

If a condition would cause two characters to go at the same time (Held Actions are one Source, multiple instances of Triggered Powers might be another) we use the Who Goes First rules to determine initiative.

But those rules have nothing to do with Holding An Action per say (they just don't come up much unless Held Actions are involved). When you hold an action it always takes place after the triggering condition without exception. If the condition was "I wait until DEX 15", you don't go before  DEX 15 (because that would result in acting on DEX 16). Likewise if "I wait until Ogre strikes", I must either wait until after Ogre strikes to take my action (assuming I am still conscious)... or I can Abort my Held Action to perform a Defensive Action before Ogre strikes (per the rules for Aborting An Action).

 

Here is another example for you:

Bob and Nin are fighting a Robber. The Robber is hiding inside the Vault, where Bob and Nin can't get him. Both decide to Hold their Action on Segment 6, both saying "I wait until the Robber runs outside the Vault.". On Segment 8 the Robber runs outside the Vault; Bob wants to strike him with an RKA, and Nin wants to Mind Control him into giving up. Both of their actions have to trigger after the defined condition, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to attack the Robber (because he'd still be in the vault), and that just doesn't make sense. So the Robber gets to complete his Move Action before Bob and Nin get to act. Since Bob and Nin both want to go at the same time, and since neither of their actions are covered by the list of Defensive Actions, they must each make their DEX Rolls (or I suppose a DEX and an EGO roll respectively since one of them is a mentalist). If Bob wins, he gets to use his RKA to kill the Robber before Nin can Mind Control it. If Nin wins she gets to use her Mind Control on the Robber before Bob can kill it.

If Nin had wanted to activate a Defense Power instead of using Mind Control, than per the rules for Who Goes First, she would have gone before Bob automatically, who would have then killed the Robber with his RKA

[mrinku]

I never said holding until DEX 15 meant you went *before* others at DEX 15 at all. But it does allow you to hold without waiting for someone to do something. In fact, I guess you'd actually go to d6 roll offs there, not DEX rolls, since acting at the same DEX resolves that way specifically.

 

Okay, operating out of CC, I still don't read it that way (happy for the 5e and 6e proper rules to say otherwise - it doesn't affect me, but it's worth validating for others). Checking 4e, there's a very specific example (BBB p140) that shows how it used to work:

 

"Defender and Ogre are fighting hand-to-hand outside a bank. Both have an action on Segment 12.

When his 23 DEX comes up, Defender wants to wait to see what Ogre will do next, so he Holds his action.

When his 18 DEX comes up, Ogre charges at Defender to attack him. Defender decides to fire his Energy Blasts.

Since both characters want to take their actions at the same time, each must make a DEX Roll.

...(Both make DEX Rolls, Defender wins.)...

Since Defender made his roll by more he will go first. If Ogre is still standing afterwards, he can then take his action.

If the rolls had been made by equal amounts, the two characters would have taken their actions simultaneously."