Mass Producing Pistols

[iamlibertarian]

How does a company, in game, say, Smith and Wesson, mass produce Pistols? What are the mechanics involved?

 

No, I am not looking for "a cheap way to buy lot of weapons or gadgets and hand them out." Allies, or enemies for that matter, or even strangers, lol, still have to pay CP to own them.

It is just that understanding the mechanics might help me understand some other things.

 

Thanks!

DC

[Hyper-Man]

I think the question is regarding character points. In the case of mundane items points are only important if Dispel or Equipment Pools are being used. They are otherwise obtained with money.

[iamlibertarian]

21 minutes ago, Hyper-Man said:

I think the question is regarding character points. In the case of mundane items points are only important if Dispel or Equipment Pools are being used. They are otherwise obtained with money.

 

Nah, I am not looking about buying them. I truly am wondering about how the mechanics of how such a company would make them, using the rules. I guess it doesn't really matter, because yes, money can buy them. And I guess even be used to put them together/build them for said company.

I only ask because my other topic about how to make magic items, or to cast long-lasting spells on other characters, has become very complicated currently.

 

In that other topic, it appears that to create a said item by casting a spell (that +1 OCV sword) may need useable simultaneously if the same character who creates the magic sword ever wants to be able to use the spell on his own weapon ever again.

 

Same for a gadgeteer who wants to make a +1 OCV Rifle/Pistol Sight. Unless he spends an ever increasing amount for the ever increasing cost of Useable Simultaneously, he can only make one Sight and give it away (even if the receiving character pays CP to keep it), and never be able to have a Sight for his own weapon ever again. So I figured the mechanics behind mass producing weapons might help me understand this.
 

DC

[mrinku]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/12/making-of-a-smith-wesson-an-inside-the-gun-factory-look/#axzz4z7vohjnQ

 

I imagine robots are largely involved these days. It's mostly a matter of precision machine tooling parts and putting them together. Some components may be suitable for casting, stamping, or injection molds.

 

Guns were some of the earliest things to use mass-production (Samuel Colt was a big mover and shaker in that regard).

[IndianaJoe3]

5 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

Nah, I am not looking about buying them. I truly am wondering about how the mechanics of how such a company would make them, using the rules.

 

It's the SFX of a character buying an RKA. 

 

More seriously, this is so far outside the situations the rules are designed to cover that it's pointless to apply them. Transform Raw Materials to Guns? RKA, Universal Focus with lots of doublings? Summon dopplegangers of the character, only with the guns? Extra-Dimensional Movement to a universe where to guns exist but the raw materials don't? Whatever floats your goat, because the rules aren't designed to give a meaningful answer.

[Doc Democracy]

There was a cool organisations tracking process for agencies etc published in Champions 3 (I think).  It allowed you to track an organisations resources and thereby make it responsive to heroic activity etc.

 

You could use the same kind of system for a company (if that company was central to the campaign plot).

 

You could model the production of handguns or any other commodity but the way companies work is within an economic and regulatory framework - so the company would need to be solvent and would need licensing perks to be able to do business and manufacture.  That is a very small amount of points.  Companies, if you were to model them in game, would be the kind of thing that would potentially have extensive non-combat influence.  You could buy a company perks, contacts and favours that it could use in a campaign against a superhero...

 

Doc

[mrinku]

Since it's the character that uses the item that normally pay the points for having use of it, your actual weaponsmith who is producing inventory is making skill rolls (PS: Armourer, Weaponsmith etc). Unless he's planning on equipping and using his product, he'd not need to burn points but sell them in exchange for money.

 

This only applies to regular items!

 

But, if mass production of enchanted swords is normal for the setting, then they MAY be considered "regular items". Typically, however, magic items are singular and require a points purchase (Fantasy Hero goes into this issue in more detail IIRC, but I haven't kept up with FH since 4e). A skilled swordsmith may well be able to make a superior quality sword with some bonuses, just as a top gunsmith can make a quality firearm, but those usually fall under normal stuff you can pay (a lot of) money for. However, it's setting dependant. By definition, true mass produced items aren't the product of expert artisans, though high quality manufacturing processes have an effect. An artisan that makes five vases a month is NOT mass producing. A factory that churns out 500 similar vases in a month is mass producing.

[Lucius]

20 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

 

Same for a gadgeteer who wants to make a +1 OCV Rifle/Pistol Sight. Unless he spends an ever increasing amount for the ever increasing cost of Useable Simultaneously, he can only make one Sight and give it away (even if the receiving character pays CP to keep it), and never be able to have a Sight for his own weapon ever again.
 

DC

 

No.

 

Once the guy you gave the item to spends points for it, you don't have to. I don't understand why you think you do. You don't.  If you make it and give it away and the guy you give it to does NOT spend the points, THEN, yes,  you get stuck with the bill so to speak. But if they pay their own way, there's no reason for you to pay for them.

 

As for having a pistol factory, if you absolutely have to have character points involved somehow, just buy some degree of the Wealth Perk and say "I own a profitable factory that makes pistols." If someone wants one of your pistols, and it's a superhero game, they can spend character points for one. If it's a heroic game, they can pay you money and get one.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises - we sell more than just palindromedaries! (no pistols though)

[massey]

15 points Wealth, defined as "manufacturing plant".

[megaplayboy]

The manufacturing facility is a base, and the factory is a "lab" with Gunsmith, PS: Manufacture Pistols and KS: Pistol Manufacture.  

[Doc Democracy]

9 hours ago, massey said:

15 points Wealth, defined as "manufacturing plant".

 

Or a 15 point social disadvantage - Financial problems, defined as 'loss-making manufacturing plant'.  :-)

[Thia Halmades]

Mega playboy is correct. It’s a base with the requisite skills assigned to it. In other words, make a character who is an idiot savant and can build guns by hand. Now give that idiot Wealth and turn them into a base. Yahtzee.

[dsatow]

There comes a point in every role playing game where applying the mechanics of the rules becomes just an academic pursuit vs. an actual need to run the game.  How a gun manufacturer builds guns for profit is just an academic pursuit for the rules rather than a necessity to run the game.  Similar to "How do I make a disposable razor for Superman?".  

[iamlibertarian]

On 11/22/2017 at 2:22 PM, mrinku said:

But, if mass production of enchanted swords is normal for the setting, then they MAY be considered "regular items". Typically, however, magic items are singular and require a points purchase (Fantasy Hero goes into this issue in more detail IIRC, but I haven't kept up with FH since 4e). A skilled swordsmith may well be able to make a superior quality sword with some bonuses, just as a top gunsmith can make a quality firearm, but those usually fall under normal stuff you can pay (a lot of) money for. However, it's setting dependant. By definition, true mass produced items aren't the product of expert artisans, though high quality manufacturing processes have an effect. An artisan that makes five vases a month is NOT mass producing. A factory that churns out 500 similar vases in a month is mass producing.

 

I am not necessarily looking to have a character truly mass produce. I figured if I understood mass producing, I would better understand the small scale.

Say a character "casts", +1 OCV on his own weapon regularly, maybe at the beginning of a combat. Now, the character gets some CP to spend and wants to do that for other characters in the party as well. AE doesn't work, even with UBO. Has to be UBO if it is just for one other character. But, even after paying for UBO, if I cast it on someone else's weapon, my character can't cast it on his own until the other character loses the +1 OCV. Not useful. To be able to do both, the character has to pay for Simultaneously.

Where the mass production question comes in is that: Simultaneously for just my character and one other it is +1/2. Guns mass produced, the cost to produce is the same for each gun. But instead of Fixed Costs per casting, if my character wanted to increase the number of people he can add that +1 OCV to, the CP cost PER buffed character goes up because of the way Simultaneously works. Just trying to make sure I understand it all...

[iamlibertarian]

On 11/22/2017 at 4:17 PM, Lucius said:

Once the guy you gave the item to spends points for it, you don't have to. I don't understand why you think you do. You don'.t

DC: Because some people have not only been telling my I do, but also that MY character is the one who has to pay those points, not the receiver.

You don't.  If you make it and give it away and the guy you give it to does NOT spend the points, THEN, yes,  you get stuck with the bill so to speak. But if they pay their own way, there's no reason for you to pay for them.

DC: Glad to hear it
 

 

[iamlibertarian]

19 hours ago, dsatow said:

There comes a point in every role playing game where applying the mechanics of the rules becomes just an academic pursuit vs. an actual need to run the game.  How a gun manufacturer builds guns for profit is just an academic pursuit for the rules rather than a necessity to run the game.  Similar to "How do I make a disposable razor for Superman?".  

 

That is why I am asking Outside the game, lol. 

[Lucius]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:41 PM, iamlibertarian said:

 

I am not necessarily looking to have a character truly mass produce. I figured if I understood mass producing, I would better understand the small scale.

Say a character "casts", +1 OCV on his own weapon regularly, maybe at the beginning of a combat. Now, the character gets some CP to spend and wants to do that for other characters in the party as well. AE doesn't work, even with UBO. Has to be UBO if it is just for one other character. But, even after paying for UBO, if I cast it on someone else's weapon, my character can't cast it on his own until the other character loses the +1 OCV. Not useful. To be able to do both, the character has to pay for Simultaneously.

Where the mass production question comes in is that: Simultaneously for just my character and one other it is +1/2. Guns mass produced, the cost to produce is the same for each gun. But instead of Fixed Costs per casting, if my character wanted to increase the number of people he can add that +1 OCV to, the CP cost PER buffed character goes up because of the way Simultaneously works. Just trying to make sure I understand it all...

 

I don't think you do. Or maybe I'm still not understanding something.

 

Okay, since you seem hung on in particular on wanting to hand out +1 +1 +1 + 1 to anyone who asks, assume you are making not pistols, but an improved sight that makes a pistol more accurate. Let's talk real-world first, then game terms.

 

I am not in the arms business and have absolutely no clue what it costs to manufacture a gun sight. But for the sake of the argument, say $100.00.

 

So far so good. Spend $100.00 and apply your skills and efforts and get 1 (one) sight.

 

What if you want more than one? Well, you probably already invested in some tools and equipment you can re-use, so instead of costing $200.00 to make two, it would likely cost something less than $200.00.  For the sake of the argument let's say $180.00. With me so far?

 

And as you expand the numbers, you can probably buy some supplies in bulk for greater economy and by the time you are manufacturing a thousand, you are probably spending much less than $100,000.00  meaning each individually costs less to make than $100.00.

 

So far, so good.

 

Here's what you don't do. You do not spend $100.00 and have a hundred thousand of these devices. You do not spend $180.00 and have a hundred thousand of them. It doesn't work that way in mass production, but I get the impression you expect it to work that way in the game. You spend less PER ITEM, but making MORE items will ALWAYS cost MORE money.

 

Now, suppose you are using the Usable Simultaneously Advantage to generate lots of those +1s for your allies. Guess what - just like in the manufacturing biz, the more you invest, the less each individual item costs, but it still costs more to make more.

 

Just for Me!:  (Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms (5 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

You say your little chant over your gun, put some energy into it, and get your bonus to hit.  Character point cost is 2.

 

You and Me Both!:  (Total: 6 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (6 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

For half again the cost, you can get twice as many people benefiting. You spend MORE to get MORE ITEMS, but spend less PER ITEM. If you want to allocate it that way, each bonus costs 1.5 character points.

 

You, Me, and a Half Dozen Close Friends!:  (Total: 9 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (9 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Note that adding ONE - just ONE more point, adds SIX more people. You now have 8 people benefitting. If you still want to allocate "cost per item" it's down to 0.5.

 

Now the Whole Gang Shoots Straighter!:  (Total: 12 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 64 people at once; +1 1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (12 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 5)

 

This time, adding one point added FIFTY SIX more people. How many friends you got, anyway? Item cost is less than 10% of a point for each unit. But outfitting 64 people still costs more than outfitting 8.

 

Let's Do It for a Whole Squadron!:  (Total: 17 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 1,024 people at once; +2 1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (17 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

For just 7 pts you can benefit over a thousand people. Here's the thing though - if you want, say, TEN thousand, you need MORE THAN 7 pts.

 

edit: because I don't know when to quit

 

Over One Million Served!:  (Total: 30 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 1,048,576 people at once; +5), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (30 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 13)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says if we carry on like this the whole division   ARMY will win marksmanship medals

 

 

 

 

[iamlibertarian]

15 hours ago, Lucius said:

Over One Million Served!:  (Total: 30 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) +1 with Firearms, Usable Simultaneously (up to 1,048,576 people at once; +5), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (30 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) (Real Cost: 13)

 

Ghods, I think I just FINALLY got it. I have been playing D&D for too long (only because it was the only game I could find in town), and had it in my head, I guess, that one casting of something costs exactly the same, no matter how many times you cast it and, ultimately, how many people you help. I think it comes from playing so many Buffers... Like casting Bless from D&D, but that is more like an AID, which *can* be cast repeatedly. I just have to accept that not all Buffs in HERO are AIDs or Healings, or the like.

Thanks Lucius, those examples 'flipped a switch' in my brain, Finally!
DC