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How to Teleport a target out of armor?


Knightgoblin

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1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

My biggest issue with using TP, whether UOO or not, is that there is no well tried and trusted method for defending against such things.  It is often there as an option because the SFX are obviously aligned with the mechanic.  However, as far as the game is concerned, this is not a matter of moving a character, it is a matter of depriving that character of powers that have been paid for.  To me, that cries out for an alternative game mechanic, one whose primary purpose is the deprivation of powers, not movement of the character.

 

Doc 

First - I think you are giving too much credit to players with the i take the OIF to circumvent something being taken away in combat. I’ve seen arguments in this board about builds being wrong because said builder didn’t take the proper focus. Second the rules say that you can attack an OIF power in combat and can break it. Have I seen that happen a lot? No, it’s probably one of those obscure rules however it is legal. Third again the mention is Defender paid points for his powers but might get deprived of them. A) Defender took a limitation on them. You know something that should have negative consequences. He got a rebate. Plus now you are making a character with focus the same as one who didn’t take a focus limitation. B ) The Teleporter is now paying points (and expensive at that) yet this consideration doesn’t seem to factor  into anyone’s discussion. C)   This Power can (& probably should) have limits put on it so it isn’t an insta win. D) Teleporter could use those points to be super powerful in other ways. 

 

Btw, one game my Ninja ended up facing Brick by himself. Combat wise I lost. Couldn’t do enough damage to ever take him out . So I role played and struck a bargin with him. I pleasantly surprised my GM because I’m not always the best role player. Point is getting deprived  oneself of powers isn’t the end of the game. I think bought heroes are better than that?

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32 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Did you not read any of my posts? Did you not see that Dispel sfx Teleport is really expensive? Did you not see where I’m trying to balance of having the power and not make it a insta win?

 

I must apologize. I skimmed your posts, but, looking back, I think I misinterpreted what you were defending. I think that Dispel Powered Armor is probably the best mechanic, but Drain Powered Armor would work as well. ("Powered Armor" is probably a tight enough SFX be valid.)

 

Teleport is definitely the wrong power, even if it does match the SFX.

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1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

First - I think you are giving too much credit to players with the i take the OIF to circumvent something being taken away in combat. I’ve seen arguments in this board about builds being wrong because said builder didn’t take the proper focus.

 

Maybe it is because I am usually the builder in my group or heavily involved in the design of every single character.  I know that I pay heavy attention to the idea of whether you want to lose the focus during combat or whether you never do.  It is the gameplay that is high in my design priorities rather than a simulation of what the thing actually is.

 

I would deprecate any argument that was based on "the wrong focus".  That is entirely wrong in my opinion, the wrong focus is the one that leaves the player in a situation they never wanted to be in, simply to achieve some odd sense of simulation of reality (or even more perverse, simulation of a hypothetical, made-up reality.

 

Doc

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1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Btw, one game my Ninja ended up facing Brick by himself. Combat wise I lost. Couldn’t do enough damage to ever take him out . So I role played and struck a bargin with him. I pleasantly surprised my GM because I’m not always the best role player. Point is getting deprived  oneself of powers isn’t the end of the game. I think bought heroes are better than that?

 

I am with you here.  If I take the limitation I know that it some point it will be triggered.  If one of my players takes the limitation, I warn them that at some point I will take away their powers and it will be pretty much at a time of my choosing.  :-)

 

I am very open to this because it should lead to the players having to think outside the box and possibly even talking rather than falling to the first resort of might makes right.  My group are currently playing D&D and I think in the next session I am going to be forced to kill one of them because they simply do not try to do anything beyond resort to combat - the current antagonist at the end point of the last session said "Surrender and your friend will live" - he has the party druid at -5hp, helpless.  Their response "We will not listen to any more of your lies".  Huge lack of imagination or thoughts of the consequences.  Talking is how they get information out of me - not getting their characters killed....

 

Kudos on you for looking for an alternative.

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There are also mind control and mental illusion options, both of which can take someone out of a fight, which can be defended against. I want to loop back to the original question; is the goal purely to teleport someone out of their armor, or is the goal to disrupt the offensive? 

 

I’m with you on the idea, generally speaking, but I (personally) would not allow either teleport as an attack or someone to use a 50 point power to dismantle a 600 point power armor suite. As mentioned before, raining hell on a power armor in a gun fight is within the boundaries of the rules. Dodge, Block. Abort. And so on. There’s no defense (against, prior notation) against a UOO TP..

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47 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

There are also mind control and mental illusion options, both of which can take someone out of a fight, which can be defended against. I want to loop back to the original question; is the goal purely to teleport someone out of their armor, or is the goal to disrupt the offensive? 

 

I’m with you on the idea, generally speaking, but I (personally) would not allow either teleport as an attack or someone to use a 50 point power to dismantle a 600 point power armor suite. As mentioned before, raining hell on a power armor in a gun fight is within the boundaries of the rules. Dodge, Block. Abort. And so on. There’s no defense (against, prior notation) against a UOO TP..

I also liked the mental powers route mechanically, although only some SFX are appropriate to those mechanics. Regarding UAA Teleport, naturally the defense condition would have to be "reasonably common" to get approved, but what constitutes "reasonably common" would have to be very carefully contemplated to match the style and expectations of the campaign.

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First off, I'll agree that there's no one power that logically handles this effect, and handles it well.

 

RE: using Teleport Usable as Attack, you need to define "a reasonably common and obvious set of defenses that cancel out the attack."  (6E1:355)  The example of Flight UAA doesn't work if the target has Flight, Desolidification, or Power Defense.  For the Teleport UAA, I'd simply replace Flight with Teleportation as one of the set of defenses.  Though I am of the camp that barring those defenses, allowing a Teleport UAA to be used in this way is a waaaaaay too much bang for the buck.

 

RE:  Transform, I think a Minor Transform is way too cheap; IMO it's at least Major, and one could even make the argument that this is Severe.  While I am usually loathe to use Transform in this manner, it's the simplest and probably the most straightforward way to handle it.  If going this route, I'd say that the way to undo this particular Transform is taking a few Phases to bypass the security which protects his armor from normal outside tampering and then putting it all back on.  That's assuming that he's left alone standing there by his now-empty armor long enough to do so. 

 

RE: using Drain, I don't think this is the right mechanic at all.  Until you've successfully teleported him out of his armor, he should still have full use of it's powers, not progressively reduced use until they're all finally gone.

 

RE: using Dispel vs. powered armor with multiple elements (Resistant Protection, Flight, Life Support, a Mulipower of attacks, etc.) to simulate "breaking" the whole thing in one shot -- and ignoring Cantriped's personal interpretation of the intent of the example and explanatory text -- game-mechanically you can do this with Dispel if you add Variable Effect and Expanded Effect (8+ elements), coming in at a whopping +4 Advantage.  (6E1:142 - while this is under Adjustment Powers, Dispel specifically says it can use these Advantages on 6E1:195)  As GM I'd require a Limitation that it doesn't work against targets who themselves have Teleportation (-1/4).  As I've pointed out elsewhere, a 20d6 Dispel would on average be able to "break" an object with 60-70 AP of each power.  That's 300 AP worth of attack right there, which IMO is a justifiable power level for effectively removing hundreds of points of a character's powers all in one go.  After all, if he's allowed to have a 300 AP power, he could have chosen a 20d6 RKA, most likely vaporizing the target instead, so teleporting him outside the armor is probably the lesser of two evils.

 

To bring it into a lower AP realm, you could go with say 5d6 Dispel, Expanded Effect (all powered armor powers; +4), Cumulative (4x max = 120 points; +1), for 75 AP, with the understanding that one part of the "object" (powered armor) isn't kaput until all are "broken."  (Most likely a -0 Limitation, though one might argue for a -1/4).  The SFX / explanation is the attacker takes multiple Phases to, in effect, hone in on just the person inside the shell until he can finally pop him a meter or two away without bringing along any of the armor itself. Using Defender as an example target, this would on average take 4 Phases.  (If you really want to get anal retentive, you could add a 2m Teleportation UAA linked to and triggered by the Cumulative Dispel.)

 

As a GM, I'd even say that, as with Transform above, the target could get back into his armor (in effect "repairing" his "broken" armor) by taking a few Phases to bypass the security which protects his armor from normal outside tampering and then putting it all on.

 

That's my $0.02 on the matter.

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1 hour ago, BoloOfEarth said:

RE:  Transform, I think a Minor Transform is way too cheap; IMO it's at least Major, and one could even make the argument that this is Severe.  While I am usually loathe to use Transform in this manner, it's the simplest and probably the most straightforward way to handle it.  If going this route, I'd say that the way to undo this particular Transform is taking a few Phases to bypass the security which protects his armor from normal outside tampering and then putting it all back on.  That's assuming that he's left alone standing there by his now-empty armor long enough to do so. 

I suggested Minor Transform because I was also suggesting the Rules For Adding And Removing Powers as the basis for determining the threshold of the Transform's success. Which means you'd need a huge number of dice of transform to "teleport their armor off", at 5 CP/die that will get expensive fast if you want to remove powerful equipment quickly enough to be of use. For example: you need 24 points of Transform to remove a normal suit of Full Plate from a Normal Person (requiring 7d6 of Transform to do so in one shot), 48 points of Transform to remove Esper's Armored Costume (CC 204) (14d6), or 492 points of Transform to remove Defender's suit of Powered Armor (CC 192) (141d6)... although at that point it's probably cheaper to buy a Severe Transform and turn him into a newt instead.

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Absolutely true that you'd need a decent number of points of effect for such a change all in one shot.  However, you need at least a Major Transform to remove abilities.  (6E1:304).  On the plus side, you don't have to add more BODY of effect to remove abilities.  Per 6E1:306:

 

However, one-fifth of any points not compensated for by new Complications adds to the target’s BODY, point for point, to determine how difficult it is for the character to accomplish the Transform. (In short, add [[Points Added-Complications Added]/5] to the target’s BODY.)

Transforms that remove existing abilities do not suffer this modifier.

.

 

So you really only need a decent Major Transform (powered armor character to person outside powered armor).  If you have 7-10d6 (70-100 AP), you should be good to affect someone with 10-15 BODY.  To be safe, 12d6 (120 AP) should affect 21 BODY on an average roll.

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On 11/26/2017 at 4:13 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

First as far as I can remember Hero has always prided itself as you can do anything.

 

This is an oversimplification of both the game itself and any claims made for it by anyone who actually knows the game well (including Hero Games themselves). The system prides itself on giving you the tools to handle "anything" so long as you aren't trying to violate some of its intrinsic axioms. Some of those axioms are:

  • There is no such thing as "always" (as in, "always hits") or "never" (as in, "never takes damage") in the game unless you define special boundaries that create equivalencies of such concepts for your campaign.
  • Nobody can have more than 12 Phases in a Turn, and you can't "borrow" someone else's Phase.
  • The Focus Limitation dictates that only the player/buyer determines the scope of its accessibility. And that can't be changed by an attack power. Only by GM fiat.

The design axioms of the Hero System place concrete limits on what you can do with it, much to the frustration of some players who come from other games with a different set of design axioms. So let's not create false claims for the system in order to justify a proposed distortion of the rules.

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I think that this depends on several items as to how the power can be enacted.  Depending on the circumstance, most of the following options would be fine by me.

  1. Dispel(Drain, instant) Resistant Defenses.
  2. Teleport UAO Ranged
  3. Major Transform to unarmored person
  4. Desol UAO only affect bio-organic items and then push him out of the armor
  5. Extra-D travel UAO only vs. armor (X seconds into the future) 
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21 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Absolutely true that you'd need a decent number of points of effect for such a change all in one shot.  However, you need at least a Major Transform to remove abilities.  (6E1:304).

I justified Minor on the basis that you really only need to make a minor change to the function of a suit of armor to remove it. For example: unbuckling all the straps on a suit of full plate, or triggering the emergency release catch on a suit of Powered Armor. If a Minor Transform is good enough to turn a Dagger into a Sword (literally one of the examples from 6e1 304), than it should also be good enough to unbuckle straps or pop releases.

 

21 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

On the plus side, you don't have to add more BODY of effect to remove abilities.  Per 6E1:306:

The wording on that section is a little janky in 6e1. But you appear to be correct. CC also stipulates that "When granting abilities with Transform, (CP Granted)/5 is added to the targets BODY..." (It omits the bit about Complications, but the important part is that it never mentions Removing abilities). I must have misread it earlier. Thanks!

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9 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

I justified Minor on the basis that you really only need to make a minor change to the function of a suit of armor to remove it. For example: unbuckling all the straps on a suit of full plate, or triggering the emergency release catch on a suit of Powered Armor. If a Minor Transform is good enough to turn a Dagger into a Sword (literally one of the examples from 6e1 304), than it should also be good enough to unbuckle straps or pop releases.

 

If doing so has the game effect of reducing the target's Resistant Protection / reducing DCs of attacks / etc., or perhaps adding Requires a Roll to said protection / attacks / etc., I agree with you.  But to completely remove the armor is not a minor change, but a major one.  (The example of Dagger to Sword is increasing DCs on an existing power, not adding a brand new power.  Similarly, turning a Sword to a Dagger would be reducing DCs on an existing power, not removing the power entirely.)

 

That said, I could see someone repeatedly using a Minor Transform to first add Requires a Roll, and then progressively make that roll more and more difficult.  (SFX being teleporting individual components of the armor away.)

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I find it a bit ironic that Teleport, UAO, Ranged, "Does not teleport 'armor & attached equipment' with target" (-1/4) serves to make the attack cheaper even though its effect is more devastating to the victim. Unless, I suppose, the target is being teleported into a large body of water, in which case that Limitation will probably save his or her life...

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1 hour ago, zslane said:

I find it a bit ironic that Teleport, UAO, Ranged, "Does not teleport 'armor & attached equipment' with target" (-1/4) serves to make the attack cheaper even though its effect is more devastating to the victim. Unless, I suppose, the target is being teleported into a large body of water, in which case that Limitation will probably save his or her life...

 

Well, that particular limitation is intended for the normal, self-only use of Teleport. If the power is designed to be used as an attack (as opposed to UOO on willing targets, who can always refuse it), I'd disallow the limitation value because it has ceased to be a limitation.

 

That's how it's meant to work, and there are any amount of examples in all versions of HERO to that effect. Any time your Irony Sense starts to ping, look for cheese and adjust the build accordingly.

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6 hours ago, mrinku said:

 

Well, that particular limitation is intended for the normal, self-only use of Teleport. If the power is designed to be used as an attack (as opposed to UOO on willing targets, who can always refuse it), I'd disallow the limitation value because it has ceased to be a limitation.

 

That's how it's meant to work, and there are any amount of examples in all versions of HERO to that effect. Any time your Irony Sense starts to ping, look for cheese and adjust the build accordingly.

 

Its a limitation if it is used against an ally, but I wouldn't give it more than a -1/4 limitation.  (For example, if you had to use it on a beserk teammate.)

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:35 PM, zslane said:

 

 

  • Nobody can have more than 12 Phases in a Turn, and you can't "borrow" someone else's Phase.
  •  

 

Five Minutes in Overdrive:  (Total: 140 Active Cost, 38 Real Cost) Duplication (creates 400-point form), "Duplicate" occupies the same space (+0) (80 Active Points); Feedback (All Duplicates Take Damage When Struck; -1), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-3/4), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Cannot Recombine (-0), Must Be Used At Full Power (-0) (Real Cost: 21) <b>plus</b> +6 SPD (60 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-3/4), Linked (Duplication; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 17)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says to ignore Lucius Alexander, he's nobody.

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On 11/27/2017 at 6:35 PM, zslane said:
  • There is no such thing as "always" (as in, "always hits") or "never" (as in, "never takes damage") in the game unless you define special boundaries that create equivalencies of such concepts for your campaign.

Not that I disagree with you but how about this?

(Total: 81 Active Cost, 81 Real Cost) +7 with any single attack (Real Cost: 14) <b>plus</b> Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Penetrating (x4; +2), MegaScale (1m = a LONG way; +8 3/4), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) (67 Active Points); 16 Charges (-0) (Real Cost: 67)

 

 

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12 hours ago, dsatow said:

Not that I disagree with you but how about this?

(Total: 81 Active Cost, 81 Real Cost) +7 with any single attack (Real Cost: 14) <b>plus</b> Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), Penetrating (x4; +2), MegaScale (1m = a LONG way; +8 3/4), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) (67 Active Points); 16 Charges (-0) (Real Cost: 67)

 

Yes, you could make an attack with an area the size of the universe, and you'd hit everything in it no matter what (due to the area). But the rules do not guarantee you'll hit your target hex, after all you could always roll an 18 right? Whether or not that matters (contextually) is a separate issue.

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I missed megascale being intended to be used as MegaArea... so more than a 2 m dive is needed. :)

 

(Unless you use Dive For Cover with Tunnelling with the fill in adder. It also wouldn't be hard to block with an Abort to any kind of Barrier.)

 

That still doesn't hit anything behind cover tough enough to take 2 body on a maximum roll, though - which would be a lot of things, but probably not the guy you wanted to target directly, true.

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