Can someone verify I am doing HtH correctly?

[g3taso]

(5th edition, if it matters). 

 

So let's say I have a 15STR person I am writing up, doing the normal 3d6 HtH for 3END. I want this guy to be a badass martial artist, so I invest in the following

45    Naked Advantage: Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) for up to 60 Active Points (45 Active Points)

28    +07 HTH Damage Class(es)

and an Offensive Strike

 

So, if I understand this martial artist mechanics I can hit with an AutoFire Martial Strike of 12d6 normal damage (Penetrating) one or more times and costs 3END per swing.

Or if I am doing it wrong, please tell me how to do it right!

[Ninja-Bear]

You can’t use the auto fire with the offensive strike unless you pay extra points and use the optional rules in UMA for 5th.

[g3taso]

What extra points? It's a 3d6 strike?

[Ninja-Bear]

You mentioned the offensive strike. Was that supposed to be a comparison to the Auto Fire? I might have confused your original post.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also where is the +9 HtH damage classes coming from? Is it HA power or are you buying extra damage classes for martial arts? They are different.

 

Also advantage and END to a power unless said advantage is reduced END.

[g3taso]

I appreciate you helping me out, and hopefully I can clarify for you a bit.

 

I bought 9 damage classes for martial arts, which adds to base damage before doubling

I am applying a Penetrating Autofire with my martial strike, which does 3d6 normal due to STR  and adding 9 martial arts damage classes for 12d6 normal (or 14d6 with martial strike).

My NA seems to be too small, and should be adjusted to 70AP to reflect the extra +2 damage classes from martial strike.

[dsatow]

When applying a naked advantage over an existing ability or power, you must cover the entire active point of the power and pay the end cost as if the power had the ability.

 

So you have a 12d6 martial strike.  With a naked advantage autofire for 60 active points, yes you can throw an autofire 12d6 martial strike (cool right?).  However, your end costs are off.  The naked advantage itself costs end and your strength costs end.  So if you are doing an autofire(5), it would cost you 3 end for the strength, 3 end for the naked advantage on 60 active per shot or 6 end x 5 = 30 End for the maneuver.  Remember, you must pay the end for each shot you do regardless of whether you hit with all the shots.

 

Addendum: You build would cost 21 end per autofire(3).

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by dsatow
Added end cost for OP's build.

[dsatow]

Oh, and you bought the naked advantage for 60 active points.  So even if you do 14d6, you only can do 12d6 with the naked advantage.  The naked advantage only cares about the cost of the base attack, not that martial arts is 4 points per + 1d6.

[g3taso]

I appreciate it. With that feedback I am rethinking my question. 

 

Assuming 15STR (3d6 normal damage and 3END) with a Martial Strike for 5d6 normal damage). If I apply the NA specified above and add 7 damage classes I arrive at 12d6 Autofire 3, Penetrating HtH attacks. The END cost is 3 for the base 15STR, adding in the NA cost, and re-paying 3 END for every attempted hit. So attempting 3 hits, we are at 9END  and the END cost of the NA. Correct?

 

Might this be improved?

[dsatow]

42 minutes ago, g3taso said:

I appreciate it. With that feedback I am rethinking my question. 

 

Assuming 15STR (3d6 normal damage and 3END) with a Martial Strike for 5d6 normal damage). If I apply the NA specified above and add 7 damage classes I arrive at 12d6 Autofire 3, Penetrating HtH attacks. The END cost is 3 for the base 15STR, adding in the NA cost, and re-paying 3 END for every attempted hit. So attempting 3 hits, we are at 9END  and the END cost of the NA. Correct?

 

Might this be improved?

You also have to pay the end for the NA.  45 active is 4 end.  So 7 end per shot. 

[Surrealone]

g3taso,

It may help if you think of the NA as a Power in its own right (complete with SFX, END costs, etc.)  -- because, per RAW, it is.

 

Per 5er p244:
"Naked Power Advantages are considered Special Powers (and therefore may no be bought in Power Frameworks without the GM's permission). Naked Advantages are distinct, full-fledged Powers with their own special effects, and may have other Advantages or Limitations applied to them (such as Reduced Endurance)..."

[massey]

There have been some pretty broken rulings on hand attack and martial arts in 5th edition.  They may have been changed later, but certainly for a while there were ways to get Advantages for free on your Strength without prorating it.  If I remember correctly, you could take an Advantaged Hand Attack, and add up to the same number of dice as you have Strength (Str equal to the base cost of the HA).

 

So, say you had a 5D6 Hand Attack (25 base cost), Penetrating (+1/2), Autofire x5 (+1/2).  You could add up to 25 points of Str to it and get a 10D6 Hand Attack, Penetrating Autofire x5.

 

This was in 5th ed Ultimate Martial Artist, I think.

 

(just looked it up)

 

Yup.  And in the 5EDr book too, page 408.  You don't prorate when you're using an Advantaged HA.  And martial maneuvers add DCs without regard to Advantages either.

 

So... to get your "badass martial artist guy", you'd want:

 

15 Str

+3D6 HA, Penetrating, Autofire x5

Martial Strike

+4 DCs

 

That'll give you a 12D6 Autofire 5, Penetrating punch.  It's completely book legal.  Later they changed things so you prorate Advantages, but not in 5th.  Not on Hand Attack.

[g3taso]

Amazing.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

No problem g3tao.

 

Massey are you saying that you can put an advantage on a martial strike naked?

[massey]

The easiest way to do it is to put the Advantage on Hand Attack.  Then you just perform the martial strike as normal.  Maneuvers (including martial manuevers, haymakers, adding DCs with skill levels) get the Advantage on the Hand Attack for free.  They add DCs normally, without regard to any Advantages on the HA.  So a haymaker always adds +4D6, even if the attack is Penetrating or Armor Piercing.

 

As I recall, this was a 4th ed Ultimate Martial Artist thing that was held over into 5th and 5th ed revised.

 

 

So let's say that Space Warlord (Str 70) has his Gamma Club (7D6 HA, AP x2).  He also knows Space Fu, and has martial block, martial grab, and martial strike.  When he punches, he can either do Str 70 + 2D6 martial strike, for a total of 16D6, or he can use his Gamma Club.  That would be 7D6 (35 base cost, before Advantages).  He can add 35 Str to it, for another 7D6.  He can also add his martial strike, for 2D6 more.  That's a total of 16D6.  Since the Gamma Club is x2 AP, the entire 16D6 would be x2 AP.

 

Obviously you want to disarm him.

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey Space Warlord can only add martial maneuver with HA if he has the weapon element and weapon familiarity paid. Granted that’s only 2pts but it’s still a rule. And you forgot the double DC rule which is in effect in 5th. If he has 7D6 from a HA, then he can only add up to another 7D6 from any other source.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ninja-Bear
I’ll check that as soon as possible. Naturally I could be wrong

[g3taso]

Wait a minute NB. In 5e as I understand it you can take a 

27    HA +3d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), (0 END; +1) (41 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack

 

and from there (in the original example) add 3d6 from the 15STR for 6d6 AP Penetrating 0END, and adding Martial Strike for 8d6 and finally some  martial arts damage classes (these are unarmed attacks, and martial arts damage classes add to base damage). As I understand it,  the whole kit and caboodle is now Penetrating Autofire. This is base damage before doubling. I should pay 3END for STR and 1END for the HA power for 4END per swing.  Added CSLs could up the damage from there.

[massey]

11 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Massey Space Warlord can only add martial maneuver with HA if he has the weapon element and weapon familiarity paid. Granted that’s only 2pts but it’s still a rule. And you forgot the double DC rule which is in effect in 5th. If he has 7D6 from a HA, then he can only add up to another 7D6 from any other source.

 

Nope.  Page 405.  Doubling damage rule does not apply in superheroic campaigns when you're using a normal damage (i.e., non-killing) attack.  Likewise he paid points for the Gamma Club, so he generally will not need weapon familiarity.  Might need weapon element, though.  I'd have to check on that one.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah your right Massey.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think I was thinking about HKAs.

[Surrealone]

That's ugly.

[DasBroot]

I  think if advantages on hand attack weren't pro-rated (oof) I'd rather just go with (for 120 active points - NA adds to the HA for determining that)

 

Str 110 (100)

1d6 armor piercing, aoe (1 hex accurate) (10)

 

Multi-attack once (-2)

 

23d6 AP against DCV 3 so the multi attack probably hits (depending on OCV caps maybe multi 3 or even 4).   

 

Crunch.

 

(And then expect to be asked to leave the table)

[massey]

1 hour ago, DasBroot said:

I  think if advantages on hand attack weren't pro-rated (oof) I'd rather just go with (for 120 active points - NA adds to the HA for determining that)

 

Str 110 (100)

1d6 armor piercing, aoe (1 hex accurate) (10)

 

Multi-attack once (-2)

 

23d6 AP against DCV 3 so the multi attack probably hits (depending on OCV caps maybe multi 3 or even 4).   

 

Crunch.

 

(And then expect to be asked to leave the table)

 

You can add up to the base points of your Hand Attack in Str.  Martial Arts can go beyond that.

 

So in your example, you've got a 1D6 AP AOE Hex attack, so that's 5 base points.  You can add 5 points of Str.  So now you've got a 2D6 AP AOE Hex attack.

 

The most efficient way to get what you want is probably a 12D6 HA, AP AOE Hex, with 60 Str.

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, massey said:

 

You can add up to the base points of your Hand Attack in Str.  Martial Arts can go beyond that.

 

So in your example, you've got a 1D6 AP AOE Hex attack, so that's 5 base points.  You can add 5 points of Str.  So now you've got a 2D6 AP AOE Hex attack.

 

The most efficient way to get what you want is probably a 12D6 HA, AP AOE Hex, with 60 Str.

Depends on your edition.

 

In 5th, that's true.

 

In 6th, he gets about 14 1/2d6 AP, AoE Hex.  In 6th, you prorate the dice you get from strength and martial arts (or any martial maneuver like haymaker).

[massey]

Sure, but the first words in the thread are: 5th edition, if it matters.