Reprint HERO System 6th Edition Core Books ?

[Lord Liaden]

I really haven't tried to give any critical input on Champions Now, other than to note that it doesn't excite or interest me personally. FWIW I did contribute a modest amount to the Champions Now project, again out of loyalty. But I've about reached my limit for investing in Hero System product I don't want in the hope they'll eventually produce something I do want. I've been down that road several times, and almost always been disappointed.

[fdw3773]

6 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

That's a really good point. When I talked to Jason at Origins he was a bit flabbergasted by the fan reaction on the HERO games website. I don't think that the "powers that be" understand how frustrated we have gotten with the apparent stall in the HERO System. Every new thing seems more like a look backwards rather than ahead. Did we really need a Champions Complete? Or even worse, a sub-par Fantasy Hero Complete? They are so aesthetically deficient they couldn't possibly have been designed to be competitive in the brick-and-mortar marketplace. So what exactly are they?

 

You bring up some very insightful observations. If the aforementioned shocked reaction you describe is across the Hero Games senior staff, then it may be more indicative of a problem that is often observed in long-standing works such as novel series, television shows, films, and of course, game books. The problem is that the senior staff suffers some combination of being out-of-touch with what their fans/customers want, complacency to where they believe their own work requires no significant vetting, editing, or revision, or perhaps even an unwillingness to bring in new talent to explore new ideas.

 

Was Champions Complete necessary? Given how unwieldy the Hero System 6th Edition rules were and that the company was not printing more copies of Hero Basic 6th Edition, the answer is definitely yes. From a style and design perspective, could it have been better? Again, absolutely yes.

 

Was Fantasy Hero Complete necessary? Yes, since the intent seemed to be Hero Basic 6th Edition with a fantasy sourcebook as a stand-alone game. Did it have to be sub-par? No.

 

Am equally puzzled regarding the poor aesthetic design and layouts from Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete, especially since previous source book editions for 5th and 6th were exceptionally well done, even with grayscale interior art. ?

 

At least Hero Games is making previous editions available on PDF for fans to select and use based on preference. ?

 

[assault]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

As much as Champions Now sounds interesting, I wish this would have been a supplement to Champions Complete/6e rather than a stand alone product.

 

I don't think it could have worked like this, or if it did it would have been a lot more work.

 

Around 90% of 6e would have had to be discarded, and most of what was left would have been rewritten.

 

Still, a more restricted narrativist take on 6e might have been possible. This might simply have involved the 90% discard, without the rewriting.

[Ninja-Bear]

36 minutes ago, assault said:

 

I don't think it could have worked like this, or if it did it would have been a lot more work.

 

Around 90% of 6e would have had to be discarded, and most of what was left would have been rewritten.

 

Still, a more restricted narrativist take on 6e might have been possible. This might simply have involved the 90% discard, without the rewriting.

A little bit rewritten I’ll agree to but 90%? Naw, I think you’re over estimating it. 

[fdw3773]

On 8/19/2018 at 8:58 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I'm leaning in the same direction. Having talked to Ron a bit, and done a video with him (there are a whole series of videos on YouTube, and he does one with our Chris Goodwin as well), I'm getting a feel for what he's doing, and am excited by it. But my big question (which I'm trying to ask him in a new video if he's game) is why we need to go back to 3rd edition rules rather than make the 6e rules more accessible? He could do what he is working towards with the 6e rules, but he is also biased against universal systems, so he is really doing a sort of "old school renaissance" approach with Champions Now.

Hopefully, you will get the answer from him. In the meantime, I'm a firm believer of Occam's Razor where the simpler explanation of an occurrence is usually the better. With that in mind, a reasonable explanation would be that he's using 3e rules because that's the one he's most familiar with, so it would be the best for him to adapt from it. Champions 3e was arguably the most complete of the early rules systems while not being too rules heavy (e.g. 5th Edition).

[fdw3773]

On 8/19/2018 at 8:56 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

Every new thing seems more like a look backwards rather than ahead.

 

Given how extensive the Hero System 6th Edition rules set is (unless you only use Hero Basic) and 5th Edition a.k.a. Fifth Revised Edition (FREd) was, am not as surprised as I thought that fans, players, GMs, and even writers are looking backwards towards earlier editions like 4th and 3rd. In my most recent game convention experience, I found myself using 4th and 3rd Edition rules more to create the Pre-Gen characters for players to use at the Champions table I ran over 5th and 6th Edition. Given that close to half of the players participating at my table hadn't played Champions before, using the simpler rules set paid off significantly, enabling them to play and have a lot of fun without being overly confused by the rules.

[assault]

36 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

A little bit rewritten I’ll agree to but 90%? Naw, I think you’re over estimating it. 

 

Obviously "90%" is a rhetorical flourish rather than a serious number, but the excisions necessary would have been huge.

 

Perhaps 6e Basic would have been a better starting point. That would still have required cutting out everything unrelated to superheroes, with a few things being added back in. (VPPs would be the main example of this.)

 

Then some major changes would have been made, such restoring the pre-4e levels of Endurance use. This is a key difference in how Champions Now characters work compared to 6e ones.

 

But this still overlooks the major point that Champions Now is also a major rewrite of the rules.

 

One of the funny things about it is that figured characteristics have mainly been eliminated! At the moment the key exceptions are Rec, End and Stun, which can't actually be bought up independently. Oh, and there's neither Comeliness nor Striking Appearance - these are treated as either purely descriptive or as special effects depending on the context. So there are some similarities to the changes between 5e and 6e. But then there is also more radical stuff, like PD and ED being folded into "Defense".

 

Another draft is coming out soon. I've seen a character supposedly built according to it, which suggests a further radical shift in how characteristics are handled.

 

To summarize: starting from 6e would simply have been too much work. To have left it compatible with 6e would have compromised the project to the extent of making it pointless.

 

A note on art: Ron is clearly aware of the issue, having posted about aspects of it for his Patreon supporters. There will be art, and hopefully it won't suck. Hopefully.

 

[Lord Liaden]

To be honest, I've become bored with Hero System rules discussions, debates and dissections. Having sampled every iteration of Hero since the beginning of Champions, I have all the rules I'll ever need, and can pick and choose whichever among them suits me best for what I want to do.

[zslane]

Same here. However, most discussions with regard to proposed new editions/versions/variations of the system/rules tend to focus on what would be best for newcomers and drawing in new blood. I tire of those discussions, not because they don't apply to me, but because they are utterly pointless.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 8/20/2018 at 8:35 PM, fdw3773 said:

 

Given how extensive the Hero System 6th Edition rules set is (unless you only use Hero Basic) and 5th Edition a.k.a. Fifth Revised Edition (FREd) was, am not as surprised as I thought that fans, players, GMs, and even writers are looking backwards towards earlier editions like 4th and 3rd. In my most recent game convention experience, I found myself using 4th and 3rd Edition rules more to create the Pre-Gen characters for players to use at the Champions table I ran over 5th and 6th Edition. Given that close to half of the players participating at my table hadn't played Champions before, using the simpler rules set paid off significantly, enabling them to play and have a lot of fun without being overly confused by the rules.

 

What convention did you play at?

[fdw3773]

The convention was PretzCon held here in Omaha, NE, this past May. I ran Champions and Icons: The Assembled Edition and am typically the only one who runs superhero RPGs during these events (most RPG players participate in D&D, Pathfinder, and Shadowrun). The next event is NukeCon this fall where I will be running Champions exclusively since I've retired my Icons campaign due to limited player interest.

[Brian Stanfield]

10 hours ago, fdw3773 said:

The convention was PretzCon held here in Omaha, NE, this past May. I ran Champions and Icons: The Assembled Edition and am typically the only one who runs superhero RPGs during these events (most RPG players participate in D&D, Pathfinder, and Shadowrun). The next event is NukeCon this fall where I will be running Champions exclusively since I've retired my Icons campaign due to limited player interest.

 

Keep me posted on this. Let me know when the event happens because I can make it to Omaha pretty easily, and finding Champions at a convention is a pretty rare thing these days.

[fdw3773]

20 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Keep me posted on this. Let me know when the event happens because I can make it to Omaha pretty easily, and finding Champions at a convention is a pretty rare thing these days.

Nuke Con is scheduled for Friday, October 5 to Sunday, October 7, 2018 here in Omaha. The location is at the Ramada Plaza Hotel at 3321 S. 72nd St, Omaha, NE 68124.  Registration is open and the website is www dot nuke-con dot com.

 

I'm scheduled to run Champions on Saturday, October 6th at 9:00 AM, 1:30 PM, at 4:30 PM.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 8/24/2018 at 1:07 PM, fdw3773 said:

I'm scheduled to run Champions on Saturday, October 6th at 9:00 AM, 1:30 PM, at 4:30 PM.

 

Are all your sessions the same?

[fdw3773]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Are all your sessions the same?

No, they are three different scenarios with different sets of villains and foes. The only common element is that they are designed to allow players from DC/Marvel/Extended Universe to crossover and play simultaneously.