Clarifying Skill Levels and Martial Dodge

[RDU Neil]

A question for interpretation vs. RAW:

 

How do you rule on Martial Dodge vs. multiple different kinds of attacks? For example:

 

Scenario 1:

Character has Martial Dodge, uses it, gets +5 vs. all attacks until his next action.  Ok... pretty typical. Whether being shot at, electrified, punched... his DCV is +5 with dodge.

 

Scenario 2:

Character has Martial Dodge AND +3 levels with Martial Arts. Uses dodge, gets +8 vs. all attacks until his next action.  Hmmm... really? How are levels with Martial Arts helping with avoiding bullets and energy blasts?  But maybe...

 

Scenario 3:

Character has Martial Dodge AND +3 levels with HtH Combat. Uses dodge, gets +8 vs. all attacks... or wait... these are HtH levels, so only vs. HtH attacks?  This is weird... because HtH levels cost more than levels with Martial Arts, but wouldn't give as much benefit to Dodge?  That seems wrong. But it also seems wrong to have levels with HtH be effective against Ranged Attacks, right?

 

So... what this seems to be indicating is that either Martial Dodge was, all along, ONLY supposed to be vs. HtH attacks and I've been interpreting it wrong all along... but that seems incorrect, because the basic Dodge maneuver is flat +3 vs. all attacks, so why would Martial Dodge be worse?

 

New Scenario 1: character has Martial dodge, +3 with Martial Arts and +2 with swords (3 pt levels). Uses dodge without sword in hand, gets +8 DCV... draws sword and dodges, gets +10 DCV... hmmm... weird...

  - now, in a HtH fight, having the sword out and using to help deflect or keep distance from HtH attackers totally makes sense, so I could see the extra +2 DCV.   Having the sword out vs. guns and energy blasts... I don't see how that should help?

 - so... do 3pt levels used for Defense only count for either HtH or Ranged? Do you have to define such when you buy them?

 

Essentially, when playing supers, most of this doesn't matter as much, but for more "realistic" Danger International level games, it makes no sense why a samurai is suddenly harder to hit with a machine gun when he has his sword in hand.

 

 

And yes, I've been playing Hero since 1st Edition and I get the basic rules, but changes in 5th and 6th Ed, especially around the whole "ranged Martial arts" vs. "hth martial arts" starts to confuse the issue... so I'm more interested in how people interpret/rule on these things in their games... not just the RAW interpretation.

Thanks

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

Would all of your troubles vanish if levels with martial arts were more expensive than levels with HtH??

 

That is the bit the jangles my reading.  I think I can see why the martial dodge works and can even justify an armed ninja being hit less than an unarmed one - whether using the blade to move, distract, threaten or (in extremis) block bullets heading his way.

 

I would also question the value of levels with swords being used with a martial dodge unless the person had been trained to use weapon elements to enhance his skills.  

 

As a GM I would also be very wary of allowing huge numbers of levels being built up - indeed, I have had one game where I ruled that levels could not exceed the base OCV (or DCV depending on what they were being used for).  That means that your bog standard CV3 person could not acquire an OCV or DCV greater than 6 (though they could get to both if they had bought that many skills and acquired that many bonuses).

Doc

[RDU Neil]

"As a GM I would also be very wary of allowing huge numbers of levels being built up - indeed, I have had one game where I ruled that levels could not exceed the base OCV (or DCV depending on what they were being used for).  That means that your bog standard CV3 person could not acquire an OCV or DCV greater than 6 (though they could get to both if they had bought that many skills and acquired that many bonuses)."

 

Yes... skill level stacking has always been a problem in Hero. Totally agree.  I'm intrigued by this nice house-rule. Very clean, and works well with the non-figured characteristics of 6th Ed (where OCV and DCV as stats are basically "built in" skill levels.) I'm going to test run that. The only thing I hesitate on is that I like the idea of a character with basically normal stats, but is so well trained he can go toe-to-toe with a higher Stat character. That aside, this house-rule might be a nice, clean catch-all to keep Skill Levels in check.

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, and yes, it this scenario... the PC has the Martial Art of Kenjutsu, with sword weapon element and open hand element, and it totally makes sense he gets better with sword in hand than not... for HtH combat. It really makes no sense that drawing the sword would make him harder to hit with guns. This is a cinematic/Jason Bourne/John Wickish kind of game, toned down a bit from that, so deflecting bullets is not a thing.

[dsatow]

AFAIK, martial art levels and HTH levels are about the same cost (5) discounting the three or less maneuver martial arts.  Also martial art levels can be applied to both ranged and melee martial arts which HTH levels can't.  On the other hand, HTH levels can be applied to melee maneuvers that aren't in the martial arts such as multiple move bys and haymakers.

 

As for the dodge (or any maneuver) DCV bonus, I don't see it as that much of a problem.  In comics as well as in action movies, the hero can run through an area of intense gunfire and not get hit (flying dodge - I have other issues with flying dodge).

 

As for skill levels stacking vs base CVs, I frequently have characters with more levels that base CVs.  They are usually what appear to be decrepit old masters with base CVs of like 4 or 5 and about a combined 14+ levels in martial arts and combat levels. 

[RDU Neil]

I'm pretty sure that in 6th Ed (don't have book at work) levels with MA are 5pts, but levels with HtH are 8pts. I could be wrong.

 

As I said, if this was a supers game, I'd not be worrying about this at all. It is supposed to be over the top and ridiculous. Playing something closer to the bone, more realistic even if cinematic, I start to have problems in certain situations.  A boxing jab (defensive strike) does nothing in real life to make that boxer harder to hit with a gun... but it plays out that way in Hero. Active defense in any kind of "realistic" combat is directed at avoiding a specific attack... not making yourself "generally harder to hit"... I mean, what would that even look like in real life?

 

Yes... a Spider-Man type character can "sproing!" in such a way that everyone misses  him with bullets and crowbars and electro-blasts... but that is completely unrealistic for characters who are nominally human.  For example: Jason Bourne gets in some hairy gunfights, but his avoidance is usually more "dive for cover" or a higher SPD letting him get out of the way BEFORE the opponent gets a bead on him or pulls the trigger... vs. Neo from the Matrix is actively "I can dodge bullets?" after they are already fired at him. VERY different feel between the two, and Hero's Dodge/Martial Dodge is reflective of the latter, but not the former.

 

Maybe I'm answering my own question here, where the Dodge/Martial Dodge maneuver is verging on a super-power, and may need limitations/nerfing for a more "realistic" campaign. 

I wonder if the simplest answer is a house rule for this game that a Dodge is only effective vs. HtH or Ranged attacks, but not both at the same time. I declare "Dodge vs. HtH" and it doesn't make me harder to hit with range, but does vs. HtH and even point blank attacks... while if I'm going all "Serpentine Shel, Serpentine!" it does nothing to help avoid punches and kicks up close.

 

hmmm... good conversation...

[Ninja-Bear]

RDU Neil I would keep Martial Dodge as is. Ie versus all attacks. However any csls that add to it only work by what range they are bought for. For example, most martial arts csls are for HTH so they can add +4 in melee to the Martial Dodge but not if hit by ranged attack.

 

fwiw you may not see why a boxer jabbing is harder to shoot. Have you ever noticed though how much time and how still hunters want animals before they shoot? Moving targets are harder targets.

[dsatow]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

I'm pretty sure that in 6th Ed (don't have book at work) levels with MA are 5pts, but levels with HtH are 8pts. I could be wrong.

 

D'oh!  Brain was thinking HTH as 5 pt levels ala 5th ed.

[dsatow]

Don't forget there are a lot of ranged attacks besides guns.  Thrown knives, arrows/bolts, laser blasts, etc.

[RDU Neil]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

RDU Neil I would keep Martial Dodge as is. Ie versus all attacks. However any csls that add to it only work by what range they are bought for. For example, most martial arts csls are for HTH so they can add +4 in melee to the Martial Dodge but not if hit by ranged attack.

 

fwiw you may not see why a boxer jabbing is harder to shoot. Have you ever noticed though how much time and how still hunters want animals before they shoot? Moving targets are harder targets.

 

I've considered the "levels only affect what they are bought for" and that might be a solution, yes.

 

And yes, a moving target is harder to hit, but whether that is a jab or a roundhouse, wouldn't matter to the hunter... and in fact, a jab, which is staying in tight, not over extending, keeping body control to avoid a counter-punch, is actually about moving "less" than moving more... thus the exact opposite of someone flailing around like a madman. It is more likely that Haymaker would make you harder to hit at range than a Defensive Strike, in that case.

 

Again... applying reality to Hero (or any gaming system) is going to leave us wanting. Most of the time, things just move along without a hiccup, but sometimes the game mechanics pull you out of the verisimilitude with a  "Wait, that doesn't seem right..." kind of moment. A guy drawing a sword and "Now I'm harder to shoot!" is one of those moments.

 

So, I guess another question is... if there is now the concept of HtH Martial Arts vs. Ranged Martial Arts... and I can't buy "Fast Strike" one time and count it for both... I have to buy Fast Strike as a Snap Punch and separately as Quick Shot (or whatever) to use it for ranged...  does this now imply that you have to buy Martial Dodge separately for HtH and separately for Ranged? That seems to be consistent, as the new rules of Ranged Martial Arts were never really part of design consideration when Martial Dodge was originally created.

[Ninja-Bear]

RDU Neil watch a boxer jab. He doesn’t just stand there ?. Watch sniper movies and how very little things can effect a shoot especially at long range. Btw is the boxer punching some one else? That’s going to add difficulty to the shooter.

[Surrealone]

2 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

So, I guess another question is... if there is now the concept of HtH Martial Arts vs. Ranged Martial Arts... and I can't buy "Fast Strike" one time and count it for both... I have to buy Fast Strike as a Snap Punch and separately as Quick Shot (or whatever) to use it for ranged...  does this now imply that you have to buy Martial Dodge separately for HtH and separately for Ranged? That seems to be consistent, as the new rules of Ranged Martial Arts were never really part of design consideration when Martial Dodge was originally created.

Regarding buying Fast Strike twice ... no, you don't have to do that, at all, if you buy Stretching with the Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4) advantage.

 

But, I digress.  You seem to be asking if you need to buy Martial Dodge twice (HTH and Ranged) ... and I have played under not a single GM who rules that one must.  (i.e. The GMs under which I've played treat a dodge as a dodge, regardless of HTH/Ranged attack classification.  To me this just seems like good common sense ... but I suppose that's not exactly common. )

[mrinku]

Worth pointing out that a normal Dodge is free, so when comparing costs, The Martial Dodge is really only a +2 DCV enhancement for its 4 points. Also that the discussion applies to base DCV, not just that obtained from maneuvers. 

 

In a realistic campaign you may well rule that you can't dodge bullets... but the implication in HERO terms is that all targets have the same DCV against guns. You can't consistently have it both ways that Joe Civilian (DCV 3) is easier to hit than Mary Agent (DCV 5) if dodging is removed from the equation.

[Lucius]

 

Why don't you just build all Guns with the Accurate Advantage so that they always target DCV 3?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary dives for cover

[Doc Democracy]

As Neil said, this is very much about getting the game right but not getting so focussed on the rules that you ruin the atmosphere.

Part of the reason for somethings are that the name of the manoeuvre does not evoke the right image.  I think dodge is easy, you can see someone moving around to evade hth or ranged attacks.  The question comes when you have weapon elements and levels with those weapons.

 

I cannot remember who said it, might have been Steve L, but "this is why we have GMs".

 

If you have +2 with swords, then convince me as GM why that expertise increases your ability to evade that spray of gunfire.  If it is a convincing story then the mechanics and the atmosphere are maintained...put the burden on the players!!

 

Doc

[RDU Neil]

5 hours ago, mrinku said:

In a realistic campaign you may well rule that you can't dodge bullets... but the implication in HERO terms is that all targets have the same DCV against guns. You can't consistently have it both ways that Joe Civilian (DCV 3) is easier to hit than Mary Agent (DCV 5) if dodging is removed from the equation.

Actually, this is exactly what I was considering... the idea that Ranged combat shouldn't be vs. different DCVs, but that every target is a base 3.

 

This involves several things I'd need to consider with range combat:

Size modifiers, cover modifiers, range modifiers, hit location mods, etc., come into play more often and are more meaningful.

I'd likely be going back to original, Danger International era Range Mods that were a lot more punishing (and IMO, more realistic). Things are harder to hit at a distance, and that distance doesn't need to be great.

Failing to brace and set, half moving before firing, or having to purchase martial gun training to know how to move steadily and braced, or the shooter is at half OCV, or other minuses...

Perhaps "Dodging" a ranged attack takes on a different meaning, as it means actually applying your DCV to the attack... actively moving erratically to be harder to hit based on a specific attack you know is coming.

 

Probably all of these considerations make things "more realistic" but they might also not be worth the effort in play and how it would change character creation, etc.

 

 

Ultimately, DCV (and OCV) is a "game stat" that doesn't really reflect anything in reality. It is a meta-stat, and necessary to the basic flow of Hero. Where things get weird is when maneuvers, skills, etc. that are designed to "reflect a real world action or skill" are represented in a shift of this meta stat, i.e. Dodge; a real world concept simplified and reflected in a shift in a meta-stat, DCV. 90% of the time, this works just fine, but those 1 out of 10 times where it makes things feel "That's not right"

 

I'm going with the "Levels only apply to HtH or Ranged based on how they are bought"... leaving Dodge and DCV alone. In that case, I'd even allow those HtH levels to apply to a point blank firing situation. 

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Why don't you just build all Guns with the Accurate Advantage so that they always target DCV 3?

 

I like this idea for Point Blank firing of any thing that isn't a "thrown weapon." That point blank (adjacent hex at most) eliminates increased DCV in the stat, but dodging and maneuver DCVs, even blocking would come into play. This might actually make for some cool edge cases, where the gun guy gets up close to the martial artist, both gaining a certain advantage, but likely more risky for the gun guy... which supports the reality of ten to twelve feet away being the optimum firing distance (just outside point blank range).

 

Hmmm... that could be good...

[Chris Goodwin]

A 3-point CSL can only provide DCV against the same types of attacks that the CSL itself works against.  So, yes, a CSL that applies to HTH combat can only provide DCV against HTH attacks.  I'd go a little further; using 3-point CSLs with Swords for DCV would only let you add DCV against Swords, because you know sword combat and swordsmen; but you wouldn't necessarily have to have a sword in your hand to do it, nor would you be able to use those levels against a martial artist not using a sword.  Combat Skill Levels with all HTH attacks would apply to a Dodge vs. HTH attacks, but not vs. Ranged. 

 

The Dodge and Martial Dodge maneuvers explicitly work against all attacks, so I'd let 5-point or greater CSLs that affect DCV apply to these completely; 3-point CSLs would only improve this as above (in other words, you can't draw your sword and get the benefit of +2 DCV against everything, .  

 

6e provides as optional rules tracking HTH and Ranged DCV separately, and that the only CSLs you can apply DCV against ranged attacks would be All Combat CSLs.  

 

This bears more thought.  

 

Aha!  Movement Skill Levels (6e2 p. 32).  I thought they might still be around.  They let you buy 2-point levels with a single movement mode or 3-point levels with all movement; those will let you add to your DCV when Dodging or using a Combat or Martial Maneuver using that movement mode.  

[mrinku]

To stir the realism pot a little more, there's a middle ground between thrown objects and firearms, which are slings and arrows and such. You can *definitely* dodge or shield block an arrow you see coming at range.

[RDU Neil]

On 12/14/2017 at 3:30 PM, mrinku said:

To stir the realism pot a little more, there's a middle ground between thrown objects and firearms, which are slings and arrows and such. You can *definitely* dodge or shield block an arrow you see coming at range.

Yeah... I'd consider any "muscle powered weapon" as closer to a thrown object than a firearm and treat them as such... at least that would be my opinion on it for this scenario.

 

[LoneWolf]

One thing to keep in mind is that dodge and martial dodge are HTH maneuvers.   The DCV bonus does apply vs ranged attacks because that is what it is designed to do.  If the levels are with martial arts he gets the extra DCV because he has trained (bought skill levels) at dodging among other things.  HTH levels would also apply because martial dodge is still a HTH maneuver and therefore can be applied to dodge and martial dodge.  Levels with specific weapons apply when actively using the weapon, not just for having in your hand.  They cost the same as levels with martial arts, but are different.  Levels with martial arts can only be applied to specific maneuvers.  Levels with weapons can be applied to any maneuver used with the weapon.

 

So your scenario with the character with levels in swords is in error.  He can apply his levels with martial arts to the his DCV, but not the levels with swords.  He could use the levels with sword on a maneuver that was not in his martial art as long as the maneuver involves the sword.  In Kendo from 5^th edition if you wanted to purchase dodge as a maneuver you were required to buy a bare hand element for Kendo. 

[Hyper-Man]

Deleted 

[Ninja-Bear]

Lonewolf a Dodge works against All attacks per 5thr pg 386. Martial Dodge is an extension of Dodge pg 399

[Ninja-Bear]

Also checked where you got Kendo cannot use Dodge without barehanded element that is correct in a sense. That is a restriction put on by the creator of the style but not a mechanical rule. Look at pg 12 of UMA.

[Hyper-Man]

Say a character has a 3-4 maneuver Martial art that includes Martial Dodge. They also have some 3 point CSLs with the art as well as 5 point CSLs with HTH Combat. If the character dodges and puts all CSLs toward DCV the martial ones will apply toward any ranged attack but the HTH ones will not. This seemingly strange result is just an extension of the rule that allows 3 point CSLs to be purchased with any 3 specific maneuvers. The Martial CSLs are adding to the Martial Dodge. The HTH CSLs are instead affecting CV directly.  The Martial CSLs don't actually affect CV but rather the specific  maneuvers in the art.  It's the fact that any form of Dodge affects ranged attacks that produces the odd result.

[Hyper-Man]

This type of incongruity is why I didn't give my 6e version of John Wick any Martial CSLs even though he has 19 Martial maneuvers.

 

Here are his CSLs:

6 +2 with Handguns

10 +2 with Small Arms

20 +2 with All Attacks

24 +2 Overall Skill Levels

 

He also has 8 PSLs vs Hit locations.

 

I would probably only allow the 'All Combat' and 'Overall' to be used for DCV or Dodges.

[dmjalund]

3 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

I would probably only allow the 'All Combat' and 'Overall' to be used for DCV or Dodges.

Isn't All Attacks different from All Combat?