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Star Wars 8 complaint box

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Finally saw it. I really have a problem with three things only.



1) No way, no way, would mister "I can still sense good in you" Luke have a light saber lit up over his own nephew ready to kill . Insight into someone and giving them a chance is his thing. I can understand having a character flaw, but that ripped out a cornerstone of the character IMO. Only way I can save that in my headcanon is to have Snoke influencing them both while they were focused on each other. Luke fails? Sure. Luke gets ready to murder a family member in his sleep? Bad writing for the character.

2) Luke quits TWICE? i mean, suicide by the Force is.. essentially what Luke did. Third movie can  salvage that, but the whole "LUke's gone" exchange between Rey and Leia had me grumbling a lot.  You can say he hopes to help as Force ghost, or killed himself so the light side would somehow help Rey even more (Though I'm not sure it's meant to be that finite) but still, what it looks like is Luke, seeing that the new Rebellion was down to a few dozen saved them once, and figured after that 'screw em. Peace out, Beyatches'.

3) As others have said, nobody in this movie had the tactical sense above the level of a rankor with the possible exception of Leia and she got taken out fast. Poe in particular held an idiot ball so large it had it's own gravitational pull, but Holdo or whatever her name was obviously skipped the week covering  communication in command school.

 

Now that said, over all I liked it. I , unlike some, adored Rose, but more for her "I'd like to put a fist through this town" and then , amusingly enough, she does. I found Luke's teaching yodalike enough that I laughed. And yes, he trolled a lot of people.  Saw a certain betrayal coming a mile away but it didn't detract too much. BB's imperial opposite was actually a scary little droid.  Rey was less of a Mary Sue this time imo.  I think I'd have given it 7 and a half stars if not for the complaints  I mentioned. After that, more like 6.5.

 

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Yeah, Luke's story arc and the military idiocy brought it down to probably a 5 for me.

 

PS:  I could make one counter-argument that Luke briefly lost it and nearly destroyed Vader in anger before he caught himself, but this is a rather weak point given that he was deliberately being goaded in the middle of a fight.

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5 hours ago, Starlord said:

Yeah, Luke's story arc and the military idiocy brought it down to probably a 5 for me.

 

PS:  I could make one counter-argument that Luke briefly lost it and nearly destroyed Vader in anger before he caught himself, but this is a rather weak point given that he was deliberately being goaded in the middle of a fight.

 

Yeah, if there were an external influence, say Snoke is proven later to have been pushing from the shadows, I would be 'well, okay then'' but of course that isn't likely to be what the writers had in mind and proving it even if it is is now much harder.

 

Poe? Lord "That thing's a fleet killer" ..

and I was even then like So you're going to kill your own fleet for them? 

 

Leia should have slapped him harder...

 

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This trilogy is eliminating the old characters, one by one, in order to pass the torch on to a new generation of heroes. I'm sure Rian Johnson feels that Luke's passing was both peaceful and self-sacrificial and therefore very Jedi-like. But after seeing how JJ Abrams dispatched Han Solo in TFA, I was, like, "Whatever," when I saw Luke die because it became clear to me that Disney is just clearing the decks of the old Star Wars to make room for the new Star Wars.

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15 hours ago, zslane said:

This trilogy is eliminating the old characters, one by one, in order to pass the torch on to a new generation of heroes. I'm sure Rian Johnson feels that Luke's passing was both peaceful and self-sacrificial and therefore very Jedi-like. But after seeing how JJ Abrams dispatched Han Solo in TFA, I was, like, "Whatever," when I saw Luke die because it became clear to me that Disney is just clearing the decks of the old Star Wars to make room for the new Star Wars.

 

So, it is kind of like the old Transformers Animated Movie.

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On 4.1.2018 at 7:05 AM, Hermit said:

1) No way, no way, would mister "I can still sense good in you" Luke have a light saber lit up over his own nephew ready to kill . Insight into someone and giving them a chance is his thing. I can understand having a character flaw, but that ripped out a cornerstone of the character IMO. Only way I can save that in my headcanon is to have Snoke influencing them both while they were focused on each other. Luke fails? Sure. Luke gets ready to murder a family member in his sleep? Bad writing for the character.

Luke was not ready to kill him. If he was, his "moment of certainty" would have lasted until after the kill.

 

It is like being "ready" to commit suicide, right up until the moment you have the knife in your hand and just freeze. Indeed it was literally such a situation. He explained how it was such a situation. In the movie. As voiceover to the scene.

 

It was Ben/Kylo that totally misread the situation of Luke standing over his bed with a Lightsaber, not yet having turned it off.

 

On 4.1.2018 at 7:05 AM, Hermit said:

2) Luke quits TWICE? i mean, suicide by the Force is.. essentially what Luke did. Third movie can  salvage that, but the whole "LUke's gone" exchange between Rey and Leia had me grumbling a lot.  You can say he hopes to help as Force ghost, or killed himself so the light side would somehow help Rey even more (Though I'm not sure it's meant to be that finite) but still, what it looks like is Luke, seeing that the new Rebellion was down to a few dozen saved them once, and figured after that 'screw em. Peace out, Beyatches'.

How was teh 2nd time Luke "quitting"? He had done all he could. He had given the galaxy hope again, in the form of Rey.

 

On 4.1.2018 at 7:05 AM, Hermit said:

3) As others have said, nobody in this movie had the tactical sense above the level of a rankor with the possible exception of Leia and she got taken out fast. Poe in particular held an idiot ball so large it had it's own gravitational pull, but Holdo or whatever her name was obviously skipped the week covering  communication in command school.

The transports were unarmed and not FTL capable. Cloaking was their only defense. And in the end a Intelligence Leak (Poe Dameron via DJ) lead to 100% of the casualties. So the only one screwing up was Poe. And only because he was convinced he could "bend the universe to his will", in a totally not selfish manner.

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30 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Luke was not ready to kill him. If he was, his "moment of certainty" would have lasted until after the kill.

 

It is like being "ready" to commit suicide, right up until the moment you have the knife in your hand and just freeze. Indeed it was literally such a situation. He explained how it was such a situation. In the movie. As voiceover to the scene.

 

It was Ben/Kylo that totally misread the situation of Luke standing over his bed with a Lightsaber, not yet having turned it off.

 

How was teh 2nd time Luke "quitting"? He had done all he could. He had given the galaxy hope again, in the form of Rey.

 

The transports were unarmed and not FTL capable. Cloaking was their only defense. And in the end a Intelligence Leak (Poe Dameron via DJ) lead to 100% of the casualties. So the only one screwing up was Poe. And only because he was convinced he could "bend the universe to his will", in a totally not selfish manner.

 

Right. I stand by my statement. Luke would not have had a lit lightsaber ready to cut open his own nephew.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm still having to tell myself Snoke was manipulating with the dark side during that whole encounter.

 

And how was he was quitting? Are you kidding? "he had done all he could" really? Had he saddled up in an X-Wing and joined the rank and file? Looked for other force users to teach and help Rey? Teach Rey some more after all? Hell, maybe he could have stuck around and provided blue milk to the rebels for supplies. What he's old, and therefore useless? That's a lesson we want to teach, that the socety of Logan's Run was right? Even if Luke had somehow burnt out his force powers after that stunt and could never recharge again... his experience, his knowledge, could be useful. Now, as I said, they can salvage this... if he had some greater plan to help more as a force ghost etc. But as they left it? Luke felt bad, got off his ass, helped buy them time, and then...makes the same damn mistake and quits again by suicide by Force rather than helping those who still needed every person they could get.

 

And Haldo (sp) whatever her name was terrible at communicating to her troops. Poe is the worst offender, but Haldo and others  had some terrible leadership going on.

Like someone else said, that's not atypical for Hollywood writers period. But it was noticeable.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hermit said:

And Haldo (sp) whatever her name was terrible at communicating to her troops. Poe is the worst offender, but Haldo and others  had some terrible leadership going on.

Like someone else said, that's not atypical for Hollywood writers period. But it was noticeable.

Because not telling your Troops the whole plan because there might be a traitor or other leak among them never happened in the history of any military ever. No, such a thing only ever happens in fiction.

 

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

And how was he was quitting? Are you kidding? "he had done all he could" really? Had he saddled up in an X-Wing and joined the rank and file? Looked for other force users to teach and help Rey? Teach Rey some more after all? Hell, maybe he could have stuck around and provided blue milk to the rebels for supplies. What he's old, and therefore useless? That's a lesson we want to teach, that the socety of Logan's Run was right? Even if Luke had somehow burnt out his force powers after that stunt and could never recharge again... his experience, his knowledge, could be useful. Now, as I said, they can salvage this... if he had some greater plan to help more as a force ghost etc. But as they left it? Luke felt bad, got off his ass, helped buy them time, and then...makes the same damn mistake and quits again by suicide by Force rather than helping those who still needed every person they could get.

Getting there:

He was not able to join them in a X-Wing. Otherwise he would have done that, dying the same thing that Obi-Wan once did and "becomming one with the force". When there was a chance to hitch a ride on the falcon, he was still moping. It needed Yoda killing the books to get him out of that. And by that time the Falcon was lightyears away. Oh, and he had no communicator to place a call.

 

Dying:

His position was very likely known to the enemy. Part of his hiding was shutting himself off from the froce, something he had already undone. If he had not died, the Order would have come for him. One interperation of Obi-Wan just vanishing on the Deathstar was because he knew Luke would not let him behind, and he could not escape Vader.

With his death Luke also made certain Rey and Leia made no rescue attempt, possibly loosing contact with the rebellion. Or that Kylo went there, possibly going after the natives when trying to find him.

The moment he went in front of that door I fully expected him to go out of that appereance as a force ghost. It was never a question if, only how. And that one was answered awesomely.

 

Teaching Rey:

Yoda outright said "the books of the Jedi have nothing to teach that Rey does not already know". What Luke said in the trailers holds true: The Jedi are dead. The old Jedi, that is. The ones that caused the fall of the Republic.

Rey is a totally new Jedi, untainted by all the mistakes the old Jedi Order made. Mistakes that resulted in Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, Count Doku, Ventress. And the failure of Lukes followup Academy. The failures chronicled by the Prequell Trillogy and Clone Wars.

And as you said yourself, he could still do that between this and the next Episode.

 

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

Right. I stand by my statement. Luke would not have had a lit lightsaber ready to cut open his own nephew.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm still having to tell myself Snoke was manipulating with the dark side during that whole encounter.

Because deciding not to kill someone in the ideal moment never happened in Star Wars.

*cough* Anakin and Obi-wan on Mustafa *cough* Luke and Vader in Bespin

Or in any disney story period *cough* Malificient *cough* too many to count.

 

Or how about that time Kylo was compeltely helpess with several weapons in the Room and Rey choose to flee rather then finishing him off?

That seems way more contrived then Luke making a panic decision to kill Ben after having seen teh Darkness grown within for YEARS, but not being able to go through with it.

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29 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Because not telling your Troops the whole plan because there might be a traitor or other leak among them never happened in the history of any military ever. No, such a thing only ever happens in fiction.

I'm not talking about giving away every little detail, but she did not inspire, did not share with those she was sure she could trust, and was...sorry, bad at communication. She was also woefully unprepared for how little trust she had not just from Poe, but from many others (Poe did not work alone). 

 

Notice, I do agree with you that Poe was the chief holder of the tactical idiot ball.

 

 

Quote

 

Getting there:

He was not able to join them in a X-Wing. Otherwise he would have done that, dying the same thing that Obi-Wan once did and "becomming one with the force". When there was a chance to hitch a ride on the falcon, he was still moping. It needed Yoda killing the books to get him out of that. And by that time the Falcon was lightyears away. Oh, and he had no communicator to place a call.

 

Dying:

His position was very likely known to the enemy. Part of his hiding was shutting himself off from the froce, something he had already undone. If he had not died, the Order would have come for him. One interperation of Obi-Wan just vanishing on the Deathstar was because he knew Luke would not let him behind, and he could not escape Vader.

 

If the order had  come for him, then wouldn't he have been a rather grand distraction? And we're talking about a master Jedi, where Snoke is dead. Who was going to trace him that easily? Kylo? Sure..he follows Luke and THAT would by the resistance valuable time. And I'm not convinced he couldn't get off planet.

 

Quote

With his death Luke also made certain Rey and Leia made no rescue attempt, possibly loosing contact with the rebellion. Or that Kylo went there, possibly going after the natives when trying to find him.

The moment he went in front of that door I fully expected him to go out of that appereance as a force ghost. It was never a question if, only how. And that one was answered awesomely.

 

Luke's astral projection fight was brilliant, no complaints. Snuffing himself after he saved them once was a waste. We are talking about a Rebellion/Resistance that was apparently reduced to dozens. Also, Leia has done the rescue stuff before, while she got caught once, she still used forethought and planning. Let's give her some credit here.

 

 

 

Quote

Teaching Rey:

Yoda outright said "the books of the Jedi have nothing to teach that Rey does not already know". What Luke said in the trailers holds true: The Jedi are dead. The old Jedi, that is. The ones that caused the fall of the Republic.

Rey is a totally new Jedi, untainted by all the mistakes the old Jedi Order made. Mistakes that resulted in Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, Count Doku, Ventress. And the failure of Lukes followup Academy. The failures chronicled by the Prequell Trillogy and Clone Wars.

And as you said yourself, he could still do that between this and the next Episode.

 

This idea that ALL Luke has to teach is tarnished and impure is an alarming one. The Jedi screwed up. And Rey does not have to be one. Fine. But it's an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater to assume Luke would now have nothing to teach. It's...bad writing with an ugly undercurrent.

IMO, of course.

 

 

Quote

Because deciding not to kill someone in the ideal moment never happened in Star Wars.

*cough* Anakin and Obi-wan on Mustafa *cough* Luke and Vader in Bespin

Or in any disney story period *cough* Malificient *cough* too many to count.

An "ideal' moment? Look, the closest Luke came to killing Vader, had the Emporer using the full force of his will and persuasion egging him on to do it, and Luke still told prunepuss to go @@@@ himself and the Bantha he rode in on. This had Luke, mister "I know there's good at you" looking down on his Nephew with a lightsaber lit up, a lethal weapon. It's not ideal if it goes against a cornerstone of the character. And, let's clear something up. I'm talking about Luke, not other characters with other ideals, other gifts, other strengths, other cornerstones. So this 'what about other character X' stuff doesn't wash.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

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25 minutes ago, Starlord said:

One wonders how much criticism the original movies would've gotten if the interwebz had existed then, for example :)

 

 

 

I refer you to our resident Ewok hater/hunter badger who was hating the fuzzy little snots before the interwebz was really going strong

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9 hours ago, Christopher said:

Because not telling your Troops the whole plan because there might be a traitor or other leak among them never happened in the history of any military ever. No, such a thing only ever happens in fiction. /<quote>

 

"Not telling your troops the whole plan..."? She didn't even tell them she HAD a plan other than jog away from the oncoming fleet til they ran out of gas. Part of being a good leader is giving your troops reason to trust you even when they don't know your plans. She failed miserably at that.

 

 

9 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Getting there:

He was not able to join them in a X-Wing. Otherwise he would have done that, dying the same thing that Obi-Wan once did and "becomming one with the force". When there was a chance to hitch a ride on the falcon, he was still moping. It needed Yoda killing the books to get him out of that. And by that time the Falcon was lightyears away. Oh, and he had no communicator to place a call./<quote>

 

He didn't NEED a communicator. He could have APPEARED TO REY (or anyone apparently, as everyone within range could see him as if he were really there) anywhere in the galaxy (apparently) and said, "I changed my mind. Send someone to get me."

 

 

9 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Dying:

His position was very likely known to the enemy. Part of his hiding was shutting himself off from the froce, something he had already undone. If he had not died, the Order would have come for him. One interperation of Obi-Wan just vanishing on the Deathstar was because he knew Luke would not let him behind, and he could not escape Vader.

With his death Luke also made certain Rey and Leia made no rescue attempt, possibly loosing contact with the rebellion. Or that Kylo went there, possibly going after the natives when trying to find him.

The moment he went in front of that door I fully expected him to go out of that appereance as a force ghost. It was never a question if, only how. And that one was answered awesomely./<quote>

 

The order had no idea where he was and, apart from Kylo, no other Force sensitives we know about, now that Snoke is dead. (Speaking of which, is he DEAD dead, or only MOSTLY dead like Luke and Yoda and Obi-Wan and Vader?) So they'd have had no way to find him. Why on earth would Leia or Rey "lose contact with the rebellion" if they went to visit Luke? Rey didn't. She had a magic maguffin that allowed her to find Leia (or whoever held the other magic maguffin) anywhere in the galaxy. (And why wasn't Leai being baked alive by the sheer wattage of whatever broadcast that thing was generating to be detectable at galactic distances?)

 

9 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Teaching Rey:

Yoda outright said "the books of the Jedi have nothing to teach that Rey does not already know". What Luke said in the trailers holds true: The Jedi are dead. The old Jedi, that is. The ones that caused the fall of the Republic.

Rey is a totally new Jedi, untainted by all the mistakes the old Jedi Order made. Mistakes that resulted in Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, Count Doku, Ventress. And the failure of Lukes followup Academy. The failures chronicled by the Prequell Trillogy and Clone Wars.

And as you said yourself, he could still do that between this and the next Episode./<quote>

 

You're assuming the books were destroyed. We don't know that. Rey might have taken them. Yoda may have "destroyed" them with lightning so Luke wouldn't discover that they're gone. Just because the "wisdom" of the Jedi was lacking (which I agree with), doesn't mean that she can't learn from their history--and I'm assuming at least some of those books are histories/logs/diaries/etc.

 

9 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Because deciding not to kill someone in the ideal moment never happened in Star Wars.

*cough* Anakin and Obi-wan on Mustafa *cough* Luke and Vader in Bespin

Or in any disney story period *cough* Malificient *cough* too many to count.

 

Or how about that time Kylo was compeltely helpess with several weapons in the Room and Rey choose to flee rather then finishing him off?

That seems way more contrived then Luke making a panic decision to kill Ben after having seen teh Darkness grown within for YEARS, but not being able to go through with it.

 

We're not talking about Rey. We're talking about Luke Skywalker, who saw the potential for redemption in a man whose crimes were literally legendary. A man who'd destroyed the Jedi, murdered countless people, and...well, all of it. He confronted THAT man with no intention of ever killing him. He confronted him ready to die in the attempt to redeem him. And THAT man, THAT Luke Skywalker, would never have tried--even for a nanosecond--to murder a sleeping boy because he feared with that boy MIGHT do.

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