Star Wars 8 complaint box

[Bazza]

Saw it last night. It was a good Space Wizard-Shamans with Laser Swords movie. 

 

If there was one complaint, well two, it was the main plot involving the retreat and chase. That isn't particularly Star Wars, ie inherently mythological, but more a typical Hollywood action film. 

 

On the non complaint side:

If The Force Awakens was A New Hope reimagined, then The Last Jedi is The Empire Strikes Back reimagined. I'm expecting a reimagined Return of the Jedi for #9. There are many similarities between TLJ & ESB for me to state this. Two points here: the First Order wins, and Rey begs to be trained by a grumpy old Jedi Master on some forgotten planet to help the Resistance/Rebellion. Even Luke gets schooled by Yoda again. 

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, Bazza said:

There are many similarities between TLJ & ESB for me to state this. Two points here: the First Order wins, and Rey begs to be trained by a grumpy old Jedi Master on some forgotten planet to help the Resistance/Rebellion. Even Luke gets schooled by Yoda again. 

Oh yes, definitely similarities. I would go as far as saying 1-3 are the same basic movie as 4-6. It makes sense for 7-9 to follow the same basic formula.

 

There are more similarities:

Rey finds out the truth about her Parents (if anything this being the 2nd film is what makes it remotely believeable)

The final battle had a lot of similarties to the initial one on Hoth (white surface, speeders, AT-AT followups)

The falcon made a trench run through a mine full of sharp crystalls. Could also mirror the space worm thing.

Rey canceled her training agaisnt the advice of her teacher (just the roles were flipped)

There was a "grotto of the darkside" (I think the EU explained htat the DS nature of the cave is what shielded Yoda from detection) and the student did not get it

Lando was kind of split between Rose and DJ

The Rebels were on the run the entire film.

[Michael Hopcroft]

When the trailer came out, the first thought that came into my head was "It's time for Star Wars to end". I may be right, in at least one sense: the story of the Skywalkers is over. Where is there to go from here?

[Bazza]

Ben (Skywalker) Solo still lives. Their family story is not yet over. 

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

When the trailer came out, the first thought that came into my head was "It's time for Star Wars to end". I may be right, in at least one sense: the story of the Skywalkers is over. Where is there to go from here?

 

44 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Ben (Skywalker) Solo still lives. Their family story is not yet over. 

Ben Skywalker goes by his Darkside name Kylo Ren nowadays. So that era is over.

 

What they are doing is called "passing the torch". A core part of it, is that members of the original cast are around to give the new show "legitimacy" with the fans.

They did something similar with Jurassic World.

It is all over the Star Trek Series: From McCoy being in the TNG Pilot, Picard in the DS9 Pilot, Quark and DS9 in the Voyager Pilot, Zephram Chochran in the ENT Pilot, Lenard Nimoy in the JJ Trek Pilot, Sarek in the Discovery Pilot/Storyline (using the Kelvin Timeline actor).

 

Considering the actors age, it was high time they did it for Star Wars. Harison Ford had a serious accident. Carrie Fisher just died. Mark Hamil is not getting any younger either.

 

One thing I thought since first hearing the name of Rey, the new main Jedi:

Could she be a "Ray of Hope" for the future of the franchise?

[Bazza]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

Oh yes, definitely similarities. I would go as far as saying 1-3 are the same basic movie as 4-6. It makes sense for 7-9 to follow the same basic formula.

 

There are more similarities:

Rey finds out the truth about her Parents (if anything this being the 2nd film is what makes it remotely believeable)

 

This is the only point that I would consider valid and similar between TLJ & ESB, and even then I would distrust what Kylo says as his motivation is to manipulate Rey. Plus, as a Sith he is mentally unstable. 

[Bazza]

6 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Mark Hamil is not getting any younger either.

 

Neither is any of the new cast or crew. (  )

[sinanju]

I don't hate the movie. I enjoyed much of it, but it was (in my opinion) much too long. I almost walked out at one point because I was bored by the endless set-piece battle scenes.

 

Part of it, I suspect is based on the saying that, "The Golden Age of Science Fiction is fifteen." I was 18 (not 15) when Star Wars came out--but close enough. From the moment I saw the first trailer--spaceships, space battles, LIGHTSABERS, aliens--I was hooked. All the space opera I'd read all my life was about to become a movie! I saw that film eleven times that summer, and god knows how many times since on VHS, DVD, cable.... 

 

Fast-forward forty years and I'm not that kid anymore. I've read a hell of a lot more SF, and seen many, many, many more SF movies. I expect--well, no, I WANT--more from a story these days than I did then. And even then, I could nitpick all kinds of things.

 

It is what it is. A lot of the plot holes go away if you remember that it's not SF, it's fantasy with SF trappings, plus WW II-era combat tactics and strategy played out on a galactic scale. It doesn't make much sense, but that's never been the goal. Spectacle, and exciting visuals are the goal. I'm just less interested in what it is than I once was. And that's okay.

 

Rey's parentage--I think Kylo was telling the truth. I hope he was. I want Rey to be a mutt. No pedigree, no famous family, nothing. Stir the DNA of a galaxy full of humans and humanoids, and *somebody* has to wind up with a potent connection to the Force. It just happens to be Rey. I don't want the whole history of the Jedi (and conflict between rebels and empire) to be a simple Skywalker clan feud.

 

As for the ship wars (Finn/Poe, Finn/Rose, Finn/Rey, Poe/Rey, Rey/Kylo, Poe/Finn/Rey, etc.) --that's the glory of fanfic. EVERYONE WINS. There's fic about every one of those combos, and plenty more besides.

[Starlord]

I'm on team Reylo.  He has too much pride and she has too much prejudice, btw. 

 

 

[zslane]

I kind of liked this movie, but yes, I completely agree that it was poorly paced and too long, with whole sequences that were ultimately pointless and should have been edited out (or, rather, never put into the screenplay to begin with). Have they lost all sense of how to tell a tightly-scripted, well-paced, straightforward space opera adventure movie? Apparently so. Every Star Wars movie must now be a ponderous chore to sit through, with sparks of humor and poignancy and the obligatory scenes that get you in the feels (e.g., R2D2 playing back Leia's original message to Kenobi from A New Hope to motivate Luke).

 

A number of things bugged me:

 

1. Luke calling his lightsaber a "laser sword". That's simply not lore-appropriate, dude. (You'd never hear Han call his blaster a "ray gun".)

2. Leia surviving open space and flying back to the ship with the Force. (More on this below)

3. The entire Canto Bight sequence. It was pointless and unnecessary.

4. Snoke being a one-dimensional cackling villain. He was clearly invented solely to be replaced by Kylo Ren. ("I can not be betrayed!" indeed...)

5. Too many plot strands. I feel like The Last Jedi could easily have been split into two movies.

6. Force powers pulled out of the writers' butts. While RPG and video game players may recognize some of these abilities, movie-goers will not, and it just feels like the writers are inventing whatever Force powers they need to get the characters out of whatever situations they are in. When Jedi can do pretty much anything, we're no longer surprised when they do. The wonder we used to feel towards Jedi and the Force is replaced by the apathetic realization that the Force is just an arbitrary plot device, and not a tightly constructed component of the milieu.

7. Rey not being revealed to be a clone. The mirror chamber seemed to set this up with a strong visual metaphor. I thought the clever reveal was going to be that she had no parents at all; that she was a clone. Since her parentage is clearly not a factor in her Force sensitivity, I feel this was perhaps a lost opportunity to really surprise the audience and bring in an old piece of (forgotten?) world-building and make it newly relevant.

8. Admiral Haldo dressed less like a top flagship officer and more like an Academy Awards attendee. I have a hard time believing that her hair and attire were regulation compliant.

9. Too much of the humor was snarky and openly self-aware. I enjoy a touch of humor, to keep things from going too dark, but this is not the tone I want from my Star Wars movies.

 

JJ Abrams films tend to leave you dazzled and thinking they were great stuff until a few days later when you start thinking about all the plot holes, inconsistencies, poor characterizations, contrivances etc.

 

Point of clarification, The Last Jedi was written and directed by Rian Johnson, not JJ Abrams.

[zslane]

Regarding the bombing of the Dreadnought in the opening sequence, maybe the idea here is that those First Order Dreadnoughts are so massive that they create enough of a local gravity well to allow bombs to literally fall on them from a close enough distance.

[Michael Hopcroft]

There were things I liked about it a lot. The acting overall was pretty good.

 

Adam Driver got a lot of benefit from ditching the mask. His face showcased the combination the character of Kylo Ren has -- the raw power of the most dangerous Sith Lord in history with the attitude of a petulant child who acts out murderously when he doesn't get his way. He's suddenly much more interesting.

 

mark Hamill is so good that I can't help but wonder if the new director (who was also the lead writer) sat him down before the process even began and asked him "Where do you want your character to go?". It's a world of difference between the clear-eyed idealist of A New Hope with the universe-weary hermit of TLJ. His statement on the "true" legacy of the Jedi (hubris and failure) is both ac curate and heartbreaking. We have been trained in forty years of film to admire the Jedi Order, and here is perhaps one of the greatest Jedi in history telling his new protege that the whole exercise is doomed because of the very nature of the Jedi. And, of course, human nature. Luke isn't just describing the Jedi Order -- he's describing himself.

[Christopher]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

1. Luke calling his lightsaber a "laser sword". That's simply not lore-appropriate, dude. (You'd never hear Han call his blaster a "ray gun".)

Are you certain Han would not call it that, when he would become a pacifist based on a deep personal failure? Luke had used that saber so many times. Inlcuding when turning Kylo to the Dark Side.

 

4 hours ago, zslane said:

2. Leia surviving open space and flying back to the ship with the Force. (More on this below)

Once you have enough space magic to stay alive and self-telekinesis to move, it is not that odd. Plus she was not exactly doing well after comming back aboard. It knocked her out for most of the movie, wich is actually close to realism:

Explosive Decompression and Vacuum Exposure

 

4 hours ago, zslane said:

6. Force powers pulled out of the writers' butts. While RPG and video game players may recognize some of these abilities, movie-goers will not, and it just feels like the writers are inventing whatever Force powers they need to get the characters out of whatever situations they are in. When Jedi can do pretty much anything, we're no longer surprised when they do. The wonder we used to feel towards Jedi and the Force is replaced by the apathetic realization that the Force is just an arbitrary plot device, and not a tightly constructed component of the milieu.

Force Projection is in the end something very similar to force ghost. And Luke was a true master, and Vaders son no less. He pulling that off is not unexpected at all. And does not mean that Rey or anyone else will be able to anytime soon.

 

4 hours ago, zslane said:

7. Rey not being revealed to be a clone. The mirror chamber seemed to set this up with a strong visual metaphor. I thought the clever reveal was going to be that she had no parents at all; that she was a clone. Since her parentage is clearly not a factor in her Force sensitivity, I feel this was perhaps a lost opportunity to really surprise the audience and bring in an old piece of (forgotten?) world-building and make it newly relevant.

A clone? That would not have been my first guess but it would make sense with something else:

A fan theory is that she might be Palpatines daughter/reincarnation (Imperial Accent, his Saber Style). I never considered a Gender Flipped Clone.

 

Otherwise, she might be a force incarnation that regulary happens. "The choosen one that brings balance, 2.0"

 

However as I said before, I do not fully trust Kylo Rens claim. I mean why would the Dark Side Mirror not just show her that truth? A clone actually makes a lot of sense.

 

4 hours ago, zslane said:

Regarding the bombing of the Dreadnought in the opening sequence, maybe the idea here is that those First Order Dreadnoughts are so massive that they create enough of a local gravity well to allow bombs to literally fall on them from a close enough distance.

According to the lore it is jsut short of 8 Kilometers long:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_warship

 

Another thing I just thought about is, that they were still in the atmosphere - wich also means still in the planets gravity field. Those ships came out of Hyperspace close enough that they could be heard and seen from the ground. So the planetary gravity might have played into it.

 

One of the clonewars episodes (wich are 2nd Tier canon) established that you can enter hypersapce from inside a atmosphere. So leaving it should be possible as well.

 

But when in doubt, physics was being used loosely back in this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HmWDdmTAE8

I mean how did the light from the Starkiller Firing and planets being hit reach the cantina planet in less then 1 century?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Darth Emo is such a powerful Sith Lord some girl who never picked up a sword before beat him in a duel.  What a titan of power and skill.

[zslane]

44 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Those ships came out of Hyperspace close enough that they could be heard and seen from the ground. So the planetary gravity might have played into it.

 

Ah, that's a good point. The bombs could be getting pulled towards the planet, with the Dreadnought simply caught in between.

 

However, I didn't get the impression that any of that opening battle took place in atmosphere. Note that our own moon is often visible during the day and it does not pass through Earth's atmosphere, and being heard from the ground is sort of a meaningless observation when you consider the artifice of sound effects in Star Wars (e.g., ships make sound in/through the vacuum of space).

[zslane]

55 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Force Projection is in the end something very similar to force ghost.

 

If you say so. However, I guarantee that few casual fans would have assumed that the ability to linger as a "Force ghost" would imply the ability of Force projection. In fact, if you surveyed audiences as they exited the theater, and asked, "Did you know a Jedi master could perform that Force Projection trick?", I'm fairly confident most would say, "No, but I'm not surprised. Jedi masters can obviously do whatever they want."

[slikmar]

I agree with some of the points. I and my wife enjoyed the movie though and think it fits fine in the star wars movies, more then any prequel seemed too.

One thing that struck us. you have 3 ships with limited fuel and only 400 people between them. Why do you now not have 1 ship, with 400 people on it and ALL THE FUEL of all 3, buying more time. Then turn the other 2 ships, having droids control them, and try ramming the enemy ships.

I was annoyed by the lack of answers to who is snoke and Rei's parents (I don't believe Kylo).

I thought the last scene, with the kids, was part of Luke's plan. He became the Jedi Master who stood off an entire army. He became Legend, which will help the rebellion more then anything. Rose's initial response to Finn showed that.

The New Order will also now suffer from a leader being undercut whenever he can by his chief subordinate.

[zslane]

Good point, slikmar. I see no reason why the Raddus could not have executed its lightspeed ram maneuver remotely, or via on-board droid. Admiral Haldo did not need to be there to "pilot" the ship in any way. That felt like a note of false heroism to me.

 

It remains to be seen how long Hux will be Kylo Ren's chief subordinate. Force-choking Hux for impudence seemed to come quite naturally to Kylo. I suspect Hux is only one failure away from being replaced by the next in the chain of command.

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

However, I didn't get the impression that any of that opening battle took place in atmosphere. Note that our own moon is often visible during the day and it does not pass through Earth's atmosphere, and being heard from the ground is sort of a meaningless observation when you consider the artifice of sound effects in Star Wars (e.g., ships make sound in/through the vacuum of space).

Well, the moon has the size of a Deathstar. So it being visible is not exactly tricky.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah Darth Emo is such a powerful Sith Lord some girl who never picked up a sword before beat him in a duel.  What a titan of power and skill.

They adressed that in the Movie. IIRC it was Kylos first scene in the movie. And it made perfect sense with everything else.

 

Also consider that he was hit by chewies bowcaster. This weapon:

In the stomach, a area where injuries are most painfull. And he was still standing and fighting. He was hitting the injury, to increase the pain and get himself more angry.

If you do not think that was badass of Kylo, I do not know what would be.

 

Also do not underestiamte just how powerfull Rey is. Luke had issues doing a force pull on his lightsaber back on Hoth. And I doubt it was only the injury.

Meanwhile Ray forcepulled the lightsaber right from under Kylos nose. Despite Kylo trying to pull it too.

[sinanju]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Ah, that's a good point. The bombs could be getting pulled towards the planet, with the Dreadnought simply caught in between.

 

 

That's a nice try at an explanation, but it doesn't wash. While the pull of gravity at orbital distances isn't much less than it is on the surface...it feels like microgravity due to the centripetal force of your orbital speed trying to force you outward (well, actually, trying to keep you moving in a straight line instead of the curving path you're on). The bombs are moving at that same orbital speed, so planetary gravity would not pull them down.

 

This is just another artifact of seeing WWII planetary air combat played out in space. It doesn't make any sense, and the film makers don't care.

[megaplayboy]

Always amusing that much of the tech in the movies still has a dated, 1950s-70s feel. At least the Resistance Cruiser command deck had more of a futuristic feel.  I guess LCD and OLED displays are too pricey in that particular galaxy. 

[Christopher]

31 minutes ago, sinanju said:

That's a nice try at an explanation, but it doesn't wash. While the pull of gravity at orbital distances isn't much less than it is on the surface...it feels like microgravity due to the centripetal force of your orbital speed trying to force you outward (well, actually, trying to keep you moving in a straight line instead of the curving path you're on). The bombs are moving at that same orbital speed, so planetary gravity would not pull them down.

You asume that the dreadnought was not using it's ventral thrusters to keep altitude, but relying entirely on centrifugal force. That is one of those things primitve pre-FTL civilisations and stationary sattelites have to do. This was a 8 Kilometer Orbit/Ground Siege Dreadnought capable of FTL in the middle of a combat. Being fuel efficient was the last thing on their mind.

 

So we have:

 - a military ship propably active fighting gravity by pushing itself upwards

 - the bombs got their initial impulse from the gravity field in the bomber that allows the crew to walk

 - the gravitational pull of the target ship.

 

36 minutes ago, sinanju said:

This is just another artifact of seeing WWII planetary air combat played out in space. It doesn't make any sense, and the film makers don't care.

That this was AIrcombat in space was pretty obvbious. I alrady mentioned that those T-Wings (was that the name?) were basically B-17 in Space.

Actually the shape of the gun turret gave it away. It screamed "old Warmovie" to me the moment I saw it. The way the bombs were arrayed simply confirmed it more.

 

19 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

Always amusing that much of the tech in the movies still has a dated, 1950s-70s feel. At least the Resistance Cruiser command deck had more of a futuristic feel.  I guess LCD and OLED displays are too pricey in that particular galaxy. 

They have full 3D Hologramms.

OLED screens? How primitive!

 

Of course on the mine planet they were going "oldschool", because that was simply the only gear around.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Funny how this went from "where to complain about dumb stuff in the film" to "how to defend the dumb stuff"

[dmjalund]

could be a clone of Anakin's mum?

[Old Man]

I feel as though all the complaints in this thread miss the entire point of the film.  At any rate, it was far less sloppy than TFA.