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7 minutes ago, Badger said:

Accepting the new trilogy will require Ep IX having cameos from Victoria Principal and Patrick Duffy.

 

 

I MIGHT consider forgiving the Sequel Trilogy if Jar Jar Binks makes an appearance as a Sith.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

One thing TLJ accomplished was making the prequels look much better in hindsight.

 

I came to a realization a couple of days ago that the reason that I can't really get myself worked up over a lot of Episode VIII is that I've already done it for the Prequels.

 

And somewhere around all of the Joseph Campbell Power of Myth analysis, and reverence of Star Wars as a whole, I came to realize a few things:

 

1. It's basically a rip-off of Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers with better special effects.

2. Lucas desperately needed a strong editor to tell him "no".

3. Lucas had no idea how to write dialog.

4. At a certain point, Star Wars was more about the toys and other merchandise, and less about the characters and story.

5. You can't be 8 years old forever, and tastes change.

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10 hours ago, Badger said:

THat didn't bother me as much as many people, because I did remember the X-wings fueling up in IV before they went after the Death Star (or I assumed those hoses they detaching were pumping fuel).

 

Not, that didn't bother me a little, but that scene let me know fuel was used.  Just not what kind, how much, etc.  (admittedly being in the original we could possibly have called that "early installment weirdness" until VIII).  In any case,  I just wonder if some of the more vehement anti-fuelers had forgotten that brief background scene.

 

ANd once again, quasi-defending TLJ has left feeling the need to take a shower  many showers.

 

Are there showers in SW?

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I'll tell you one thing: if you've ever wanted to see a black guy* ride an alien horse, this film will scratch your itch.

 

* who was underutilized, forced into performing hackneyed comedy, and would have made for a compelling Jedi (especially if had he been written like a soldier confronting PTSD while helping his new allies)

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On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:48 PM, Ragitsu said:

 

*shrugs* There is no comparison between the chaos of an open battle rife with evident lethal intent against a foe (friend or otherwise) that has crossed the line into evil and a seasoned master (especially one cognizant of the old Jedi order's dogmatism) that happens to be an uncle contemplating committing murder against a nephew he thinks might fall to the dark side. I'll not press the issue any further with you, Ternaugh, but I will say that I find it disheartening that people are defending bad writing. Even Mark Hamill himself repeatedly voiced complaints that The Last Jedi Luke behaves in a way contrary to his established philosophy.

 

I note from the clips that Hamill indicates he was surprised by the change, and initially opposed.  He did still film the script he was given (I am sure he would  not have had to collect discarded pop cans to put food on the table had he declined the role), and he acknowledged that he could see the evolution of the character within the parameters and backstory he was given.  

 

I also note his interpretation that, in Luke's view, the Jedi were an impediment to the galaxy moving forward.  As the only remaining Jedi, who better qualified to make that judgment?  Yoda, who dealt with the destruction of a Jedi Order that protected the galaxy for centuries (many of which he served in himself) by hiding in a swamp for a couple of decades while Luke grew up?  Maybe Obi-Wan, who spent those same decades living as a hermit on a backwater planet so he could watch the kid grow up?  Seems like Jedi faced with a setback do retreat from the conflict and hide out in remote locations.  Hamill's interpretation that it deeply hurt Luke to cut himself off from friends and family, but he did it as he thought it was the best answer for the galaxy as a whole sits right - what would Luke NOT sacrifice for his friends or the greater good?  Remember "I'm jeopardizing the mission - I have to hand myself over to Vader"?

 

As to Luke's "established philosophy", is there official canon as to the time passing from "Farmboy Luke Leaves Tattoine" to RoTJ "Battle of Endor where Vader is Defeated"?  Luke was old enough to join the military, but not by much, as I interpret A New Hope, so what's that, 18?  Even if the movie events took 7 years (which feels like a long time, would mean a lot of time hiding on Hoth and/or leaving Han in Jabba's hands), he would then have been 25, so I'd put that as the cap on his age when we saw him last, before the closer of EP VII.

 

I'm 52, and I don't think my "philosophy established" 25 yo self would have envisioned the events of 27 intervening years, or would share the philosophy I have today.  I don't think I have changed all that radically, but I didn't win a galactic war at 25, nor see it all crumble as I tried to rebuild the Jedi order.  And I don't think any of us at 50 are the people we were in our mid-20s.

 

Is it the #1 pick I would have made for Luke 3 decades later?  Probably not.  But, as Hamill also noted, Luke is no longer the protagonist, and he needs to make way for the new generation, so he could not reasonably be written as "the hero who will save the galaxy from the First Order" - his turn as galaxy-saving hero was in the past, twice - the Death Star and Endor.

 

But I wonder whether it might have been better for Ep VII to be 70+ years in the future, with the events experienced by Han, Luke and Leia relegated to history and legend, rather than only 20 - 35 years later.  [It can't be less than Kylo's age +1 - the actor is now 34, so I'd say Luke's bedside confrontation with Kylo is probably about 20 years after RoTJ, and it's been 5 - 10 years more since then.  At least, that feels about right to me.]  Wookies live a long time, and droids can keep going as long as they are maintained, but that would have prevented either "but where are the old characters during all of this?!?" or "how could you DO that to the old heroes?!?".  But I bet the known names sold a lot of tickets.

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I wonder how someone young enough to have seen the prequels in the theater, then watched the original trilogy, would view Obi-Wan and Yoda disappearing from the scene for a couple of decades, letting the Rebellion go it alone while the Empire tightened its grip.

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There is a fundamental issue which exists whether you believe Luke would contemplate murdering his nephew or that his actions are a gross violation of the character's core beliefs: the wide time skip. If we had films bridging the events from Return of the Jedi to The Last Jedi, any kind of significant (negative) character change would at least be easier to sell. As it stands, if we want to accept this film as being part of the Star Wars story, we have to swallow the changes without question and without any sort of substantial context.

 

Anyhow, there were far better ways to handle the story aside from Luke Skywalker sneaking into his nephew's bedroom to kill him.

 

* Snoke masterminds an expertly executed plan to ensure the Jedi are out of his way; Luke gets captured thanks to lost technology or even biology which can nullify The Force. Ysalimiri, anyone? Suddenly, the new generation of Force users have to change the way they do battle if they wish to succeed against the First Order.

* Luke goes off on a quest to discover just why there always seems to be a Sith/Sith Lord popping up seemingly from out of nowhere. During this search for answers, he gets captured.

* Luke feels the growing darkness within Kylo and decides to retrieve his mother - Leia - in an attempt to dissuade him from going down a ruinous path. While away, Snoke or perhaps a proxy of Snoke comes to the new Jedi academy and successfully seduces Kylo to The Dark Side of The Force. Luke can still feel guilty about failing his nephew without the ugly "murder for the greater good" nonsense. I still think he wouldn't go off and sequester himself from the rest of the galaxy when people need his help, but at least this outcome is much better than isolation motivated by thoughts of neptocide.

* The evil aspect of Anakin Skywalker's psyche - Darth Vader - managed to split off and persist long after the redemption of The Chosen One. We learn that it was this shade that helped turn Kylo to The Dark Side. Turns out there was a reason why Kylo was hanging onto Vader's melted helmet beyond an unsettling adoration for a mass-murderer.

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4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I wonder how someone young enough to have seen the prequels in the theater, then watched the original trilogy, would view Obi-Wan and Yoda disappearing from the scene for a couple of decades, letting the Rebellion go it alone while the Empire tightened its grip.

 

Was it really the same thing though.

 

Yoda and Kenobi fail in their efforts to prevent Palpatine from coming to power,  the Jedi are wasted,  the Separatists are wasted, the Rebellion has to start practically from scratch.  Kenobi sticks close to a known offspring of a force-user to be ready when the child is.  Would Yoda and Kenobi serve a purpose joining the Rebellion and getting killed in its infancy?  Who ends up teaching the offspring of Anakin if they do so?

 

With Luke, the Rebellion has won, right?  He begins building the Jedi as new caretakers for the galaxy.  He fails with one, let's the galaxy go to pot.

 

Seems to me Yoda and Kenobi might have been playing a long game, not unlike the Rule of Two.  Whereas Luke just gave up. 

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32 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

Was it really the same thing though.

 

Yoda and Kenobi fail in their efforts to prevent Palpatine from coming to power,  the Jedi are wasted,  the Separatists are wasted, the Rebellion has to start practically from scratch.  Kenobi sticks close to a known offspring of a force-user to be ready when the child is.  Would Yoda and Kenobi serve a purpose joining the Rebellion and getting killed in its infancy?  Who ends up teaching the offspring of Anakin if they do so?

 

With Luke, the Rebellion has won, right?  He begins building the Jedi as new caretakers for the galaxy.  He fails with one, let's the galaxy go to pot.

 

Seems to me Yoda and Kenobi might have been playing a long game, not unlike the Rule of Two.  Whereas Luke just gave up. 

 

All other things being equal, all other things are rarely, if ever, equal.

 

Yoda and Kenobi sequestered themselves as Palpatine and Vader began moving to solidify their hold over the Galaxy.  How many lives could have been protected, had they participated in the fight?  Could Yoda have swung more people, even more systems, to the side of the Rebellion (Resistance, at that time)?  He was a pretty persuasive little Muppet.  They retreated just when the Light needed them most!

 

Luke, on the other hand...well, the Rebellion had succeeded.  He was trying to restore an Order that, with the Sith gone, wasn't really needed any more, was it?  And every time that Order grew,. it swelled the ranks of Force users susceptible to the seduction of the Dark Side.  But if he removes himself, and lets the Jedi Order die out, and the Sith are already gone (where did Snopes come from, anyway?  Why couldn't Luke sense him rising?), then the galaxy can carry on just fine without these Force (ab)users making trouble.

 

After all, the Rebellion has won, right?  It's in the steady hands of dedicated forces of Light.  Not Jedi, of course, but Han and Leia will guide the New Republic to greatness once again, and justice and benevolence will again preside over galactic affairs, so he's not really needed any more, right?

 

The only thing Luke "gave up" on, really, was the Jedi Order.  Kenobi and Yoda gave up on all those innocent sentients enslaved or destroyed by the Empire.

 

The only possible interpretation?  No.  As valid an interpretation as Kenobi and Yoda heroes with a view to the long term and Luke a whiny quitter?  Maybe.  

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

 

Was it really the same thing though.

 

Yoda and Kenobi fail in their efforts to prevent Palpatine from coming to power,  the Jedi are wasted,  the Separatists are wasted, the Rebellion has to start practically from scratch.  Kenobi sticks close to a known offspring of a force-user to be ready when the child is.  Would Yoda and Kenobi serve a purpose joining the Rebellion and getting killed in its infancy?  Who ends up teaching the offspring of Anakin if they do so?

 

With Luke, the Rebellion has won, right?  He begins building the Jedi as new caretakers for the galaxy.  He fails with one, let's the galaxy go to pot.

 

Seems to me Yoda and Kenobi might have been playing a long game, not unlike the Rule of Two.  Whereas Luke just gave up. 

 

Wait, is this the same Yoda that had to be badgered by a force-ghost into training Luke? His long game seemed to consist of shouting that Skywalker would be too old to train (again).

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Yeah, I applaud the effort but,  I think we learned in the prequels evil gets a foothold when good becomes complacent.  So, I'm not sure look never even trying to build an Order would work out.

 

Best case scenario: Snoke find some force-sensitives, that could have been Luke's students, and trains them without opposition.   

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3 minutes ago, Ternaugh said:

 

Wait, is this the same Yoda that had to be badgered by a force-ghost into training Luke? His long game seemed to consist of shouting that Skywalker would be too old to train (again).

 

That is true.  But, he was testing him, too. So, a maybe on that.   Still, haven't addressed Kenobi, regardless.

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16 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

That is true.  But, he was testing him, too. So, a maybe on that.   Still, haven't addressed Kenobi, regardless.

 

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106332/why-was-yoda-reluctant-to-teach-luke

 

I'm not aware of any canon answers, but it seems likely to be a combination of genuine doubts and Yoda exaggerating his reluctance.

 

The original plan was to train up one or both of the Skywalker twins as Jedi. But that was twenty years ago, when they had no way to predict Luke's adult character or personality.

It we take at face value Yoda's statement, "This one, a long time have I watched," he has been observing Luke using the Force and is not convinced he is good Jedi material. If all Luke does is fall to the Dark Side, and provide the Emperor or Vader with a young and powerful apprentice, it would be better not to train him at all.

 

When Yoda finally meets Luke, he at first pretends to be a simpleton. He then expresses his reluctance to teach Luke; this may be genuine, but it also helps to determine why and how badly Luke wants to be a Jedi. It has to be said, Luke does not distinguish himself in his interactions with Yoda, so it's understandable that Yoda continues to have doubts.

 

We don't know Yoda's exact state of mind, or how close he is to rejecting Luke as an apprentice. But in the end, Yoda overcomes his reluctance (real or feigned) and commits himself to training Luke.

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Yeah, that was one reason, I gave a maybe.  It was a bit hard to know where the testing ended, and reluctance began.  I think he wanted Luke truly dedicated, not doing so because his father was a Jedi or it sounded exciting.

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3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

All other things being equal, all other things are rarely, if ever, equal.

 

Yoda and Kenobi sequestered themselves as Palpatine and Vader began moving to solidify their hold over the Galaxy.  How many lives could have been protected, had they participated in the fight?  Could Yoda have swung more people, even more systems, to the side of the Rebellion (Resistance, at that time)?  He was a pretty persuasive little Muppet.  They retreated just when the Light needed them most!

 

Luke, on the other hand...well, the Rebellion had succeeded.  He was trying to restore an Order that, with the Sith gone, wasn't really needed any more, was it?  And every time that Order grew,. it swelled the ranks of Force users susceptible to the seduction of the Dark Side.  But if he removes himself, and lets the Jedi Order die out, and the Sith are already gone (where did Snopes come from, anyway?  Why couldn't Luke sense him rising?), then the galaxy can carry on just fine without these Force (ab)users making trouble.

 

After all, the Rebellion has won, right?  It's in the steady hands of dedicated forces of Light.  Not Jedi, of course, but Han and Leia will guide the New Republic to greatness once again, and justice and benevolence will again preside over galactic affairs, so he's not really needed any more, right?

 

The only thing Luke "gave up" on, really, was the Jedi Order.  Kenobi and Yoda gave up on all those innocent sentients enslaved or destroyed by the Empire.

 

The only possible interpretation?  No.  As valid an interpretation as Kenobi and Yoda heroes with a view to the long term and Luke a whiny quitter?  Maybe.  

 

Yoda and Obi-wan retreated because they were the only two Jedi left to face the entire Empire. Yoda could and should have done more but Obi-Wan did have the mission to protect and train Luke.

 

Luke failed in detecting Snoke because he never encountered him. Better Jedi masters than Luke(Yoda and Windu for example) interacted personally with Palpatine  on a monthly if not weekly basis for years and didn't suspect a thing.

 

Luke gave up after one student fell to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue and redeem him or stop the threat, he went to live in a hut in the middle of nowhere. He might have thought he'd have to face other Dark Side users but he had no idea The First Order existed so that shouldn't have been a factor in his decision.

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

Yeah, that was one reason, I gave a maybe.  It was a bit hard to know where the testing ended, and reluctance began.  I think he wanted Luke truly dedicated, not doing so because his father was a Jedi or it sounded exciting.

 

Yoda objected to Anakin's training on the basis of Anakin's age, and the strong emotions that he held for his mother. By the end of Episode I, Yoda's concerns were overruled by the Jedi Council, and his training was allowed. Anakin was frequently shown as reckless and impulsive in the prequels, and Luke had many of the same traits*. Yoda really didn't want to train him; the line, "He is too old. Yes. Too old to begin the training," reads as if Yoda is grasping for any reason to avoid it, so I would probably feel that the testing was originally more to appease Obi-Wan's force ghost.

 

*Lucas has been on record saying that there are several themes in the prequels which were meant to echo similar themes in the original trilogy. 

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10 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Yoda and Obi-wan retreated because they were the only two Jedi left to face the entire Empire. Yoda could and should have done more but Obi-Wan did have the mission to protect and train Luke.

 

 

The only two Jedi left to defend the galaxy from one Sith Master and one Sith Lord?  Seems like what they need is some military to counter the Empire's military - some sort of Rebellion, perhaps?  And this assumes every other Jedi died in one day.  They chose to wait a generation, while people (planets full of them) died, hoping one of the Vader Twins would work out as a great savior of the galaxy.

 

10 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Luke gave up after one student fell to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue and redeem him or stop the threat, he went to live in a hut in the middle of nowhere. He might have thought he'd have to face other Dark Side users but he had no idea The First Order existed so that shouldn't have been a factor in his decision.

 

We don't know all of the factors that cause Luke to give up on the Jedi as a positive force.  I attribute it less to Kylo falling to the Dark Side and more to his own failings, such as nearly falling to the Dark Side himself by killing Kylo.  Was he wrong?  All those Jedi a generation back, and Palpatine still corrupted their "Chosen One" (you would think people would pay more attention to a Chosen One), killed the Jedi and took over.  How did that New Order turn out?  well, the most promising student turned to the Dark Side, practically driven there by Luke himself.  That's not bad enough - it was his own nephew. 

 

We assume Luke is the Great Jedi of Jedi.  Was he really?  His training was rushed, and it was known he had to face Vader, likely Palpatine as well, so a focus on combat training over philosophy and his own teaching skills seems likely.  Didi he really "win" on Endor, or did his imminent demise, Palpatine's willingness to kill him off to get his bright, shiny new apprentice, and some bond of familial loyalty push Vader over the edge to get a lucky win against Palpatine?  The Force does not seem to differentiate between Light and Dark for power - why couldbn't a Sith Lord manifest as a Force Ghost?

 

Perhaps part of Luke's fall was due to exactly what we see on this thread - all these people thinking he is the Great Hope who will rebuild the Jedi Order and shepherd the galaxy to a new Golden Age.  That's a lot of responsibility to put on the shoulders of this mid-20s farmboy-turned-rebel, don't you think?  How much pressure was he under?  Maybe he wasn't the Great Jedi Savior, just a kid with strong ties to the Force who was in the right place at the right time.  Obi-Wan and Yoda kind of put all their eggs in one basket, didn't they?  Not that they had a lot of eggs to choose from anyway.

 

BTW, where did that Jedi library come from, anyway?  It doesn't seem like Yoda had a great place to keep books in the swamp, even if he'd been able to gather them up while fleeing Coruscant.  Seems like Luke was trying to supplement his own limited knowledge of Jedi teachings.

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