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They'd ruin the Rogue Squadron movies.  Disney is like Baraggan from the Bleach anime, everything it touches decays and rots.

 

Anyway, I actually did prefer they die.  You need some good old heroic sacrifice in your war arc story.

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:08 PM, Pattern Ghost said:

 

On the third hand, Luke was still green, and still not good enough to face anyone with training until well after he finished his training with Yoda, whereas Rey is pretty much Instant Jedi, 

 

Oh yes that week in the swamp must have made all the difference.  

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To play Devil's Advocate, Luke grew up as a farmboy - how much combat had he seen, much less been involved in, before he got clocked by that Tusken Raider.  Rey's history seems to have placed her in more situations where she would have fought (or fled) for her life, and perhaps unconsciously called on the Force to get her through (like Luke bullseying Womp Rats, only with actual consequences if she failed).

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The difference is stark though.

 

Luke was a good pilot but his minimal force training only enabled him to make a tough shot in a stressful combat situation. He then trained with Yoda in Empire, ran off to rescue his friends and got beat down and had his hand cut off. He then went back for more training  and still lost the fight in Return but won by turning Vader.

 

Rey went into a bar and found a lightsaber in a chest, got captured and tortured and upon her rescue , defeated the main villain in a one on one duel. She hasn't lost a fight to date.

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On 2/25/2019 at 5:08 PM, Grailknight said:

The difference is stark though.

 

Luke was a good pilot but his minimal force training only enabled him to make a tough shot in a stressful combat situation. He then trained with Yoda in Empire, ran off to rescue his friends and got beat down and had his hand cut off. He then went back for more training  and still lost the fight in Return but won by turning Vader.

 

Rey went into a bar and found a lightsaber in a chest, got captured and tortured and upon her rescue , defeated the main villain in a one on one duel. She hasn't lost a fight to date.

 

She hasn't lost a fight to date because she was so drastically overpowered by Snoke that she couldn't even put up a fight.  The thing is, Kylo Ren may be the main villain but he had a huge stack of handicaps when he fought Rye, and Ren isn't at all well trained himself.  Even so he could have easily killed Rey if he had in fact been fighting to kill her.  

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48 minutes ago, Clonus said:

 

She hasn't lost a fight to date because she was so drastically overpowered by Snoke that she couldn't even put up a fight.  The thing is, Kylo Ren may be the main villain but he had a huge stack of handicaps when he fought Rye, and Ren isn't at all well trained himself.  Even so he could have easily killed Rey if he had in fact been fighting to kill her.  

 

How do you figure that Kylo isn't trained? The only power he hasn't displayed in force lightning and no one else, Jedi or Sith has has ever frozen blaster bolts in midair. 

 

We'll never know how Rey would have fared against Snoke. She never fought him because Kylo and the elite guards were in her path.

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For that matter we don't know how much Snoke could do combat wise do we.   could do some Force stuff yesh. But, Rian "The Ruin" Johnson saw to it we will never know squat about his fighting capabilities. 

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1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

How do you figure that Kylo isn't trained? The only power he hasn't displayed in force lightning and no one else, Jedi or Sith has has ever frozen blaster bolts in midair.

 

Darth Emo strikes me as far less trained/experienced than Vader.  Vader was a Jedi Knight when he was turned (at least from the OT descriptions).  Kylo was a student.

 

I do not  believe Vader would have panicked when he saw Luke's force projection.  I expect he would have sensed it, much as he sensed Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star.

 

While no one else stopped a blaster bolt, I believe we have seen other Force users deflect multiple bolts.  Doing one thing we have not seen before does not strike me as evidence he can do everything others could do, and more.  It strikes me as being just as possible that he has mastered one trick.

 

Vader seemed quite comfortable with the Dark Side.  Luke was able to pull him back.  Kylo still seems conflicted - his conflict from killing Han being part of that.  But Rey did not turn him back from the Dark Side.

 

Is mastery of the Force demonstrated exclusively, or even primarily, by combat prowess?  Han was pretty good in a fight, but never claimed any special affinity with the Force.  It seems like the Sith Lords all pulled back from combat, preferring to let their apprentices handle the dirty work. 

 

Vader often stood back ominously as the Stormtroopers moved in.  Kylo still seems to need to show off how powerful he is, and does not command nearly the respect Vader did from the military.  The two are not, as I read them, nearly equals.

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Are Snoke and Kylo equal to Sidious and Vader?  No. not by a long stretch.

 

But if you don't give them some credit for competence , then the entire narrative collapses. Luke says Kylo took out all his other students. He never mentions Snoke.  Kylo has as much or more training than Luke did at the end of RotJ.

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5 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

How do you figure that Kylo isn't trained? The only power he hasn't displayed in force lightning and no one else, Jedi or Sith has has ever frozen blaster bolts in midair. 

 

We'll never know how Rey would have fared against Snoke. She never fought him because Kylo and the elite guards were in her path.

 

I said he isn't well trained.  And I say that because he was incompletely trained by Luke and Luke himself is mostly self-taught and because

 

1.  His lightsaber may look intimidating but it only has those crossbars because he screwed up when making it and nearly killed himself.  .  

2.  He muffed his attempt at a mind probe and ended up just dumping his own memories into her mind and creating a permanent but accidental mind link.  

3.  He was directed so that he'd swing his saber like it weighs 20 pounds.  

4.  He is profoundly undisciplined.

 

Powerful?  Yes.  Well-trained?  No.  

 

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2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Are Snoke and Kylo equal to Sidious and Vader?  No. not by a long stretch.

 

But if you don't give them some credit for competence , then the entire narrative collapses. Luke says Kylo took out all his other students. He never mentions Snoke.  Kylo has as much or more training than Luke did at the end of RotJ.

 

Kylo apparently took out the other students by collapsing Luke's Mojo Dojo on their heads.  And to say that Kylo has as much training as Luke means remarkably little considering how much training Luke had.  

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2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Are Snoke and Kylo equal to Sidious and Vader?  No. not by a long stretch.

 

But if you don't give them some credit for competence , then the entire narrative collapses. Luke says Kylo took out all his other students. He never mentions Snoke.  Kylo has as much or more training than Luke did at the end of RotJ.

 

Well, I think it is safe to say the narrative collapsed, like a condemned high rise surrounded by explosives.

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2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Are Snoke and Kylo equal to Sidious and Vader?  No. not by a long stretch.

 

But if you don't give them some credit for competence , then the entire narrative collapses. Luke says Kylo took out all his other students. He never mentions Snoke.  Kylo has as much or more training than Luke did at the end of RotJ.

 

Does Luke say "Kylo faced all of my other students together, straight up, and beat them fair and square"?  As Clonus notes, he used ambush tactics.  I would still put Kylo as Luke's most advanced student.

 

When in RoTJ is it mentioned just how long Luke was trained by Yoda, or how much time had passed between Empire and RoTJ?  Yoda told Luke his training was complete, but for his need to face Vader - that seems like more than a week or two since Empire.  Lando had time to infiltrate Jabba's guards, and Leia to establish her phony Bounty Hunter identity.  That did not likely happen overnight.  I think Luke had considerable training between Empire and RoTJ.  And his training was full-time with no distractions (what else is there to do on Dagobah?) with a 700+ year old Jedi Master who was not exactly taking it easy on him.  A more motivated student would also be tough to envision.

 

Kylo is naturally gifted, as is Rey, so no win/loss on that score.  Kylo has more training, but Rey was pretty good with that staff before she picked up a lightsaber.  Luke seemed proficient after a bit of practice on the Falcon in New Hope - by Empire, he was good enough to duel Vader, though far from skilled enough to win, and by RoTJ, he was able to duel Vader pretty effectively.  Vader had several years of Jedi training,  a lot of experience with other Jedi in the Clone Wars, plus 20 or so years of extra practice while Luke was growing up.  Luke seems to have caught up pretty fast.

 

What other Jedi skills that would need training has Rey demonstrated?

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15 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Being able to mind-whammy James Bond the Stormtrooper seems like something that would require training to do.

 

I actually blame the bungled mindmeld for that.  Rey was bit by a radioactive Ren.  

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