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massey

Star Wars 8 complaint box

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3 hours ago, Christopher said:

But we still had at least his actions to judge him by. He was a master scheemer, having lured the rebels to Endor. All just to turn Luke.

 

Snoke was teased in EP7, wich is earlier then the Emperor or Doku.

Only to die in EP8, before he could show off anything.

He was "tell but not show".

 

 

 

I was just addressing the idea that we need some sort of backstory for Snoke.  I'm not saying that he's a well realized character.

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2 hours ago, massey said:

My biggest problem with the bombers is that they were so damn slow.  This was part of the pacing issues that plagued the whole movie.  I know that they dragged it out so that you could have the "lady has to get the control device thing and press the button" scene that I've seen in a ton of other movies. 

 

Compare how s-l-o-w-l-y the bombers flew over the big ship, compared to the bombing run versus the Death Star, or attacks against other big Imperial ships.  The bombers creeped along, eliminating any real sense of excitement.

 

"Bombers" in space is a truly ridiculous concept, but it's a ridiculous concept that started back in ESB.

 

If there's one thing that this trilogy is consistently bad at, it's battles.  Insanely slow bombers in space?  Why would that ever work?  A dreadnought that is apparently incapable of maneuver, surrounded by escorting destroyers that do nothing for the entire battle?  An Imperial flagship whose weaponry suddenly becomes completely ineffective past a given range?  Said flagship is surrounded by escorting destroyers who once again do nothing, such as hyperjump ahead of the fleeing enemy cruiser and come at it from the other side?  "Cloaking devices" that completely fail to obscure their transports in the visual spectrum at a range of a few kilometers?  No one on Snoke's ship has binoculars?   No one on Snoke's ship is even looking out the window when an obviously non-Imperial ship approaches to land during a battle?  Where the hell did it land anyway?  Vice Admiral Holdo's Picard-maneuver-on-steroids never occurred to anyone before if it was so obviously effective on giant sluggish space targets like, I don't know, Death Stars?  Especially after throwing away two other perfactly good cruisers?  Finn and Rose literally crash at the feet of a dozen AT-ATs but Finn is able to drag Rose half a mile across a featureless expanse of white salt to the giant door that everyone ought to be staring at and no one notices?

 

Don't get me wrong, despite my ranting, these are minor quibbles that don't really affect the plot.  The battles are eye candy, so that's what I treat them as.  Still, I do have to admit it's sloppy.  Many of these problems could be written away in about half an hour.

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What does Old Man expect of a screenwriter: competency with physics, competency with war strategy and tactics, and a deep knowledge of Star Wars lore? :winkgrin:

 

Just be happy you got natural dialogue and a decent plot. ;) 

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As an homage to countless WWII movies, a slow-moving bomber squadron that requires fighter escorts makes a lot of sense.

 

In terms of practicality, however, mass drivers would have been much more effective.

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7 hours ago, Old Man said:

Insanely slow bombers in space?  Why would that ever work?  A dreadnought that is apparently incapable of maneuver, surrounded by escorting destroyers that do nothing for the entire battle?  An Imperial flagship whose weaponry suddenly becomes completely ineffective past a given range?  Said flagship is surrounded by escorting destroyers who once again do nothing, such as hyperjump ahead of the fleeing enemy cruiser and come at it from the other side?  "Cloaking devices" that completely fail to obscure their transports in the visual spectrum at a range of a few kilometers?  No one on Snoke's ship has binoculars?   No one on Snoke's ship is even looking out the window when an obviously non-Imperial ship approaches to land during a battle?  Where the hell did it land anyway?  Vice Admiral Holdo's Picard-maneuver-on-steroids never occurred to anyone before if it was so obviously effective on giant sluggish space targets like, I don't know, Death Stars?  Especially after throwing away two other perfactly good cruisers?  Finn and Rose literally crash at the feet of a dozen AT-ATs but Finn is able to drag Rose half a mile across a featureless expanse of white salt to the giant door that everyone ought to be staring at and no one notices?

Bombers:

If you stay out of range, speed is not an issue. In this case, Poe and BB-8 killed all the guns on the Mandator 4 class. That and they utteraly failed at deploying their fighters right away (as the Mandator Captain noted).

 

Flagship Weapons:

After the mandator 4 had been killed, those were the only weapons even capable of reaching the Radus. At all.

That they could not punch through the shields at such extreme ranges made sense.

 

Escorts doing nothing:
Moving away the escorts could have allowed the Rebels to pull some other trick. So why risk it? They had this chase in the bag (or so they thought). Even if the rebels escaped in transprots, those transprots were not hyperspace capable. So where could they go that a Mega-Starsdestroyer + several escorts worth of ground forces could not kill them?

Cloaking devices:
Optical cloaking is unessesary. Sensor cloaking is enough. We do know exactly where Voyager 1 is - because it actively sends signals to us.

Do we still regulary use binoculars for spotting aircraft? Or did we switch to using wide angle IR cameras and radar for that?

 

The Shuttle:
"Windows are Structural weakpoints. Geth do not use them." I mean they had a seriously powerfull security shield, so it is not like just anyone could have approached there.

Where to land:
A cut scene was them someone getting in via a washery. So I asume there is a umbillical connection to recieve clothing supplies or something they could force open without raising alarm? This ship is 60 Kilometers wide. They had a security shield because they could not protect all the small entraces at effectively.

 

Ramming Speed:
The Radus was 3 km long, so it was actuall remotely in the same weight class as a Mega-star destroyer (60 km Wingspan). A fighter ramming the deathstar or even a star destroyer at lightspeed would barely have made a scratch. There was simply way too much material between the impact point and anything remotely relevant.

The imperials saw that Hyperdrive charging minutes away. But they choose to ignore it as "a distraction". By the time they realised the Radus had turned for ramming, it was to late to refocus fire or start dodging (both of wich would have ruined that maneuver).

It is possible Admiral Holdo even waited a bit longer with turning, to made sure the Supremacy was distrated by killing the transports. It was not a easy choice, no doubt. But she only had one shoot and it was important to make it count.

 

Rebel Cruiser ramming:
Those cruisers were way smaller. Propably would not have made a dent. Asuming they could have even turned around withount being vaporized first. Again, the enemy was to focussed on the transport sto notice the turning. Back when they lost the smaler rebel ships, there was no such advantage.

 

How did Finn and Rose get there?
Everyone was kind of distracted by that epic battle betweel LUKE SKYWALKER and KYLO REN (those are titel crawl caps).

The Tie Fighters had all been drawn off by the Falon ("they really hate that ship"). And the remaining weapons were not exactly designed to hit infantery sized tragets with allies nearby engaged in a epic melee.

 

 

So as you see, finding a reason for this to work out is not that hard.

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36 minutes ago, Christopher said:

A fighter ramming the deathstar or even a star destroyer at lightspeed would barely have made a scratch.

 

I could be wrong, but I think:

 

A. Anything ramming at light speed would have infinite mass and make quite a mess.

2. Nothing in Star Wars can ram at light speed, because they use travel through hyperspace, not FTL drives.

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32 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

A. Anything ramming at light speed would have infinite mass and make quite a mess.

For most intents, multiple decks work like layers upon layers of spaced armor. A single hefty impact will have all it's force diluted before it reaches any relevant machiners.

The Whipple shield works enterily on that basis.

 

So congrats for putting a crater into the deathstar. It will still kill your planet.

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1 hour ago, death tribble said:

I may have committed a faux pas which those of the board membership could appreciate. You see I saw The Force Awakens but did not see Rogue 1. Having seen The Last Jedi, what have I missed that directly links Rogue 1 to The Last Jedi.

Nothing comes to mind. Maybe Galen Urso being mentioned? Kind of hard to remember if that came up.

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4 hours ago, Christopher said:

Bombers:

If you stay out of range, speed is not an issue. In this case, Poe and BB-8 killed all the guns on the Mandator 4 class. That and they utteraly failed at deploying their fighters right away (as the Mandator Captain noted).

 

It's odd that an Imperial dreadnought would be totally unshielded.  And if those bombs are so effective, why don't they put them on more effective delivery systems?

 

4 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Flagship Weapons:

After the mandator 4 had been killed, those were the only weapons even capable of reaching the Radus. At all.

That they could not punch through the shields at such extreme ranges made sense.

 

Escorts doing nothing:
Moving away the escorts could have allowed the Rebels to pull some other trick. So why risk it? They had this chase in the bag (or so they thought). Even if the rebels escaped in transprots, those transprots were not hyperspace capable. So where could they go that a Mega-Starsdestroyer + several escorts worth of ground forces could not kill them?[/quote]

 

I dunno, maybe the planet that they're fleeing toward at full speed?  Speaking of strangely blind Imperial forces.  "Oh, hey, a planet just appeared directly in the Rebels' path!  Boy, space sure is full of surprises!"

 

 

4 hours ago, Christopher said:


Cloaking devices:
Optical cloaking is unessesary. Sensor cloaking is enough. We do know exactly where Voyager 1 is - because it actively sends signals to us.

Do we still regulary use binoculars for spotting aircraft? Or did we switch to using wide angle IR cameras and radar for that?

 

Admittedly, the U.S. Navy is prone to making the same mistake.  Although it does result in court martials when it happens.

 

Maybe the planet had a cloaking device?

 

 

4 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

The Shuttle:
"Windows are Structural weakpoints. Geth do not use them." I mean they had a seriously powerfull security shield, so it is not like just anyone could have approached there.

Where to land:
A cut scene was them someone getting in via a washery. So I asume there is a umbillical connection to recieve clothing supplies or something they could force open without raising alarm? This ship is 60 Kilometers wide. They had a security shield because they could not protect all the small entraces at effectively.

 

Protecting entrances effectively is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect the Empire to have corrected after the Death Star, Endor, and Starkiller Base.  Why are umbilical connections to anything permitted in the middle of a space battle?

 

 

4 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

Ramming Speed:
The Radus was 3 km long, so it was actuall remotely in the same weight class as a Mega-star destroyer (60 km Wingspan). A fighter ramming the deathstar or even a star destroyer at lightspeed would barely have made a scratch. There was simply way too much material between the impact point and anything remotely relevant.

The imperials saw that Hyperdrive charging minutes away. But they choose to ignore it as "a distraction". By the time they realised the Radus had turned for ramming, it was to late to refocus fire or start dodging (both of wich would have ruined that maneuver).

It is possible Admiral Holdo even waited a bit longer with turning, to made sure the Supremacy was distrated by killing the transports. It was not a easy choice, no doubt. But she only had one shoot and it was important to make it count.

 

Rebel Cruiser ramming:
Those cruisers were way smaller. Propably would not have made a dent. Asuming they could have even turned around withount being vaporized first. Again, the enemy was to focussed on the transport sto notice the turning. Back when they lost the smaler rebel ships, there was no such advantage.

 

At relativistic speeds a marshmallow would screw up a Death Star.  More to the point, if the tactic is so effective, why isn't it used more often in the SW universe?

 

4 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

How did Finn and Rose get there?
Everyone was kind of distracted by that epic battle betweel LUKE SKYWALKER and KYLO REN (those are titel crawl caps).

The Tie Fighters had all been drawn off by the Falon ("they really hate that ship"). And the remaining weapons were not exactly designed to hit infantery sized tragets with allies nearby engaged in a epic melee.

 

 

So as you see, finding a reason for this to work out is not that hard.

 

The point is that I shouldn't have to work at all to justify what the director puts on screen.

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5 hours ago, Christopher said:

For most intents, multiple decks work like layers upon layers of spaced armor. A single hefty impact will have all it's force diluted before it reaches any relevant machiners.

The Whipple shield works enterily on that basis.

 

So congrats for putting a crater into the deathstar. It will still kill your planet.

 

Anything less than a gas giant planet or a star will be mostly wiped by a multi-ton object hitting it at  even a tenth of the speed of light.  The Deathstar would be melted debris with trace organic element mixed in. The velocity of the projectile is  just too high.

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3 hours ago, Old Man said:

It's odd that an Imperial dreadnought would be totally unshielded.  And if those bombs are so effective, why don't they put them on more effective delivery systems?

The Dreanought was so heavily shielded, a T-70 X-Wing could do nothing but kill turrets.

And the bombs were only effective in those masses.

 

Also, the Resistance was not exactly overly well equipped. So maybe those were simply they only weapons they had to put in those bomber?

 

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

I dunno, maybe the planet that they're fleeing toward at full speed?  Speaking of strangely blind Imperial forces.  "Oh, hey, a planet just appeared directly in the Rebels' path!  Boy, space sure is full of surprises!"

The planet was a 90° angle away from the path. And even with most of the first order groudn forces out of comission with the ships, it still did not hold on for more then half an hour.

 

Without 2 Jedi-ex-machina, they would have been done for anyway. Kind of like Chewie and the team escaping from Could City...

 

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

Protecting entrances effectively is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect the Empire to have corrected after the Death Star, Endor, and Starkiller Base.  Why are umbilical connections to anything permitted in the middle of a space battle?

Protection enterances is what the security shield is there for. So yes, they did learn.

 

Also you do udnerstand that just because a port or airlock is not in use, that does not mean it is less of a weakness?

 

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

At relativistic speeds a marshmallow would screw up a Death Star.  More to the point, if the tactic is so effective, why isn't it used more often in the SW universe?

The marshmallow would maybe put a really long hole in the deathstar. That maters for this thing how? It is a moonsized space station.

 

Also the tactic is not effective. As I jsut said. And you apparently agree with.

 

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

The point is that I shouldn't have to work at all to justify what the director puts on screen.

It was 0 work for me. It was all kind of trivially obvious for me.

I have no idea why you have such a hard time with it. Or why you spend so much work trying to reject it.

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32 minutes ago, Pariah said:

This is rapidly devolving into pointless nitpicking. See you.

 

Star Wars and fanboys. You didn't think nits would be picked? ( :P )

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My point about the appearance of the tech in SW is that it has a very retro look, particularly with regard to UI(user interface).  Compare it with 80s-90s era ST UI representations.  Or modern fighter jets--the HUD in modern fighter jets looks more sophisticated than SW X-Wing/Tie UI/HUD.  That's a stylistic choice, but also one that leads ST nerds to argue that ST tech is more advanced(when, except for specific examples, it's mostly just different).  The tech interface/look on SW stuff is comparable to, say, the control panel on an Apollo spacecraft, or various interfaces in the 70s to early 80s.  Probably because SW was made in the 70s, and because Lucas wanted to create a more rugged look(imo).  Lucas could have had teleportation devices, replicators and so forth, but wanted something more evocative of space opera.  

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6 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

My point about the appearance of the tech in SW is that it has a very retro look, particularly with regard to UI(user interface).  Compare it with 80s-90s era ST UI representations.  Or modern fighter jets--the HUD in modern fighter jets looks more sophisticated than SW X-Wing/Tie UI/HUD.  That's a stylistic choice, but also one that leads ST nerds to argue that ST tech is more advanced(when, except for specific examples, it's mostly just different).  The tech interface/look on SW stuff is comparable to, say, the control panel on an Apollo spacecraft, or various interfaces in the 70s to early 80s.  Probably because SW was made in the 70s, and because Lucas wanted to create a more rugged look(imo).  Lucas could have had teleportation devices, replicators and so forth, but wanted something more evocative of space opera.  

That "oldshool" look is still there. BB-8 was fixing a circuit board with resistors and a few IC's on it. I did some basic soldering on a similar piece years ago (a basic analog Radio), so I instantly recognized it :)

By this time it is a integral part of the setting.

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41 minutes ago, Christopher said:

That "oldshool" look is still there. BB-8 was fixing a circuit board with resistors and a few IC's on it. I did some basic soldering on a similar piece years ago (a basic analog Radio), so I instantly recognized it :)

By this time it is a integral part of the setting.

You can see a similar aesthetic in the Alien films.  70s era switches, monitors, etc.  Creates a sense of no-frills ruggedness.  

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