Star Wars 8 complaint box

[Marcus Impudite]

So Darth Emo is now supposed to be the new big bad of the Star Wars? Oh please, the Sith grand master, Darth Bane, would tell that poser to turn in his lightsaber and go back to whatever equivalent of Hot Topic the galaxy far far away has.

 

And Vice Admiral Tumblr was grating as Hell. The smug was so strong with her, all she was lacking was a pair of hoop earrings a a shirt of purple and pink plaid...

[Hugh Neilson]

On 12/27/2017 at 1:16 PM, TheDarkness said:

In Empire, the plans of the characters, especially at the end, come to naught. Luke interrupts his training to save his friends, yet his actions have no bearing on their rescue, Han takes them all to Bespin to lay low, and is led right into an Imperial trap, threepio discovers the trap early only to be taken out of commission so that he ends up being unable to reveal this until it's too late, Han pays for choosing Cloud City by being frozen in carbonite(and that fate is specifically tied to his not settling his debts earlier in the movie because of acting as the hero). Luke loses his hand.

 

In the new movie, the bad planning does not succeed, but is generally tied to character development, much like Empire, and likely as a thematic homage.

 

The Imperials (actually Boba Fett, but same impact) set a trap for Han.  What did they do to set a trap for Finn?  Nothing.  From the outset of ESB, Vader was hunting for Luke.  Why?  He sensed the strength of the Force within him at the Death Star.  Snopes was hunting for Rey, too, as it turned out. 

 

Vader hired bounty hunters to ensnare Luke.  Boba Fett reasoned that he could catch Luke by setting a trap for his friends and drawing him in.  Every choice Han made during the flight from Hoth advanced his (and Leia's) escape from the Imperials.  How did Finn contribute to any escape from the Imperials?  Oh that's right - he didn't. 

 

Laying low on Bespin would have worked had Boba Fett not been tracking him.  Who was tracking Finn and Rose?  Oh, that's right - no one.  Who knew they were trying to slip aboard the command ship and disable the tracking just long enough for the Rebels to escape?  That same "no one"  But the First Order are still right there, waiting.  Thanks to Rose and Finn, they discover the Resistance's escape plan and start blowing transports out of the sky.

 

Han could be pretty confident  Leia, Chewie and the two droids could not repair the Falcon's hyperdrive.  So he seeks out an old contact.  The Resistance have every skill one can imagine on a ship, but no one who can break a code?  Yet there's a shady guy in prison who can do it, and Rose and Finn just happen to get locked up with him. 

 

Obi-Wan went looking for a pilot in a spaceport town, and he found one in a seedy dive that shady pilots (the only kind likely to smuggle him through Empire space) frequent..  Rose and Finn went looking for a codebreaker in a casino based on a transmission from someone Finn has briefly met once, don't find him, but happen to meet an "expert codebreaker" in a random prison cell.  Han was betrayed by an old friend he sought out for help when he had no other resources available, while Finn and Rose are betrayed by someone they randomly met in prison and decided to entrust with the fate of the entire resistance, rather than looking for the skill set they need in the entire Resistance community? 

 

Luke leaves his training with the noble aim of helping his friends, and falls into Vader's trap,.  Rey leaves her training with the noble aim of turning Kylo Ren back to the light side, and falls into Snopes' trap.  Her arc is comparable.  Finn and Poe's arc is not, at least to me.  They needed an arc where they could demonstrate some competency and heroism, even if their broader objectives failed, at least in my opinion.  Instead, they come across as a step or two up from Jar Jar Binks.  Trying hard, but not accomplishing much, if anything, and ultimately just making things worse.

 

Why couldn't Finn's experience as a Stormtrooper have proven useful evading capture on the command ship, allowing he and Rose to escape?  Why could we not have had a skilled codebreaker in the Resistance fleet (what was Rose's job, anyway?), allowing for a desperate (and, perhaps, even sanctioned) attempt to shut down the First Order's tracking capability, rather than a rogue mission and a mutiny?  It would have been nice to see the Heroes actually contribute to what limited success the Resistance enjoyed in the movie, rather than impeding it.

 

In the original trilogy, all of the main characters felt like competent heroes, relevant to the action and the plot.  I don't get that same feeling here.  Maybe I'm the curmudgeon.

 

BWT, agreed that the break from the Skywalker clan is welcome.  There were plenty of non-Skywalker Jedi before, and "strong in the Force" does not need to be restricted to a single bloodline.  Whether Ren was truthful or not, it seems pretty clear Rey is not a Skywalker, at a minimum.

 

ADDENDUM:  The movie felt like a lot of Bait & Switch.  We're supposed to expect the heroes to do heroic things, so instead they fall flat on their faces. 

 

Finn and Rose make a last-ditch desperate attempt to save the Resistance.  But it's useless, and ultimately futile as they already had a workable plan.  Poe Dameron leading a mutiny?  We expect it to turn out that he and his friends save the Resistance.  Instead, they basically doom it, when the plan which would have played out had they sat quietly like good little underlings seems like it would have succeeded. 

 

Shady character encountered in the last place we would think to look?  Diamond in the rough, with the Force bringing the players to their destiny, we think (especially when he returns Rose's medallion). Nope.  Traitor.

 

Had the movie not featured Poe, Finn or Rose, and focused entirely on Leia trying to get the Resistance fleet to Krait, and Rey's efforts to get Luke to train her, then to try to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side, with Poe and Finn getting as much screen time as, say, Biggs and Wedge, would the movie have lost anything?  It would still have deviated a long way from the original trilogy, and an All-Jedi Cast would have hearkened back to the prequels, but what have the new non-Jedi characters really added to the Saga of this new trilogy?

 

Hopefully the final part will let them be heroes too, not muggles scampering around while the Jedi Wizards get all the glory.

 

Had these been released in 1977 and 1980, I'm not sure we would have seen a return by the Jedi.  These seem more like the wannabe movies that tried to ride the Star Wars wave. 

[Old Man]

5 hours ago, Marcus Impudite said:

So Darth Emo is now supposed to be the new big bad of the Star Wars? Oh please, the Sith grand master, Darth Bane, would tell that poser to turn in his lightsaber and go back to whatever equivalent of Hot Topic the galaxy far far away has.

 

It's not clear at all that he is supposed to be a big bad.  At least this movie showed that he's intended to be emo, not a truly frightening big bad who mistakenly comes off as such.

[Christopher]

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The Imperials (actually Boba Fett, but same impact) set a trap for Han. 

Why did they set a Trap for Han? To get Luke!

As Han remarked: "They did not even ask me any questions". The whole torture was only there to get a Force Vision to Luke and draw him to Vader.

 

The Trap for Rey was Kylo, not Finn. And it was explicitly set by Snoke by "linking your minds".

 

So, where exactly is the difference? Who was used as bait? Wow, big difference.

[Old Man]

 

From this forum:

 

A mathematician friend of mine did this:

An MC85 star cruiser has length about 3400 m [1], and the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) has length 342 m and has displacement of about 93,284,000 kg fully loaded [2]. Assuming, then, that an MC85 star cruiser is like the USS Enterprise scaled up by a factor of 10, its weight scales up by a factor of 1,000, which means that an MC85 star cruiser, fully loaded, has mass about 9.3 x 10^10 kg.


The speed of light is approximately 3 x 10^8 meters per second. Ignoring relativistic effects, as Star Wars does so well, an MC85 star cruiser moving at, or just below, the speed of light has a total kinetic energy of 0.5 x 9.33 x 10^10 x (3 x 10^8)^2 kg m^2/s^2 , which is about 4.2 x 10^27 Joules.

To put this incomprehensible amount of energy into familiar terms, assuming the target absorbs all the force of the impact, being hit by an MC85 star cruiser moving at (or just below) the speed of light is a bit like: (1) being hit by Earth’s Moon moving at 861 kilometers per hour (splat!) [4], or (2) receiving the entire energy output of the Sun for 11 seconds (sizzle!) [5], or (3) surrounding the target with 20 billion 50-megaton hydrogen bombs (the largest ever tested [6]) and setting them all off at once (poof!).

[1] http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC85_Star_Cruiser
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CVN-65)
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of ... de_(energy)
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

[megaplayboy]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

From this forum:

 

 

 

Scaling is also the reason SW ships likely trounce ST ships--even if you assume SW STL drive is 1/4 the top speed of ST Impulse Drive, there's still a proportional relationship between shield and weapons power and the power output of the engines.  So SW captal ships should have shields several times stronger(surface area is a square function) and weapons dozens of times stronger than ST capital ship weapons.  

[Christopher]

24 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

Scaling is also the reason SW ships likely trounce ST ships--even if you assume SW STL drive is 1/4 the top speed of ST Impulse Drive, there's still a proportional relationship between shield and weapons power and the power output of the engines.  So SW captal ships should have shields several times stronger(surface area is a square function) and weapons dozens of times stronger than ST capital ship weapons.  

Somebody once crunched the Numbers. Result:

A single X-Wing could tank the entire Photon Torpedo Complemente of the Enterprise D.

A single shoot by the X-Wing - fired at the saucher from blow - would punch through the shield with ease. Impact. Come out at the other end. Then penetrate the shield from the inside to get out again.

 

That was simply the difference in energy density given the sources he had. The Star Wars galaxy was spacefaring for Milennia. Star Trek could not nearly match the energy potential.

[dmjalund]

but ST deflectors should keep small ships outside the force field )otherwise they wouldn't stop photon torpedoes

[Pattern Ghost]

It must've been a good movie. It's started an all out nerd war.

[zslane]

According to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).

[Starlord]

Blah, blah, blah, Kirk and Spock kick everyone's whiney, fatalistic quitter jedi ass.... 

[massey]

3 hours ago, Christopher said:

Somebody once crunched the Numbers. Result:

A single X-Wing could tank the entire Photon Torpedo Complemente of the Enterprise D.

A single shoot by the X-Wing - fired at the saucher from blow - would punch through the shield with ease. Impact. Come out at the other end. Then penetrate the shield from the inside to get out again.

 

That was simply the difference in energy density given the sources he had. The Star Wars galaxy was spacefaring for Milennia. Star Trek could not nearly match the energy potential.

 

And yet Darth Vader's TIE fighter blast failed to kill R2-D2.

[Christopher]

19 minutes ago, massey said:

 

And yet Darth Vader's TIE fighter blast failed to kill R2-D2.

Only because of immedaite medical attention.

Also the deflectors were still online.

 

Also, also, once you get to 95% killing/100% incapacitation chance you stop wasting energy on doing more damage and go for better armor and shield penetration. The remaining 5% not-killing chance is for main characters only.

 

I could be hit by the main guns of the Yamato in any arm or leg. My little body resistance would certainly not trigger the charge.

It would still reliably rip off the extremity and impart a lot of force on my body. I would certainly be out of whatever fight cause someone to aim such a gun on me. But my chances to survive with medical attention are still good. That is how 5% survival chance can work out.

[Michael Hopcroft]

14 minutes ago, Christopher said:

I could be hit by the main guns of the Yamato in any arm or leg. My little body resistance would certainly not trigger the charge.

It would still reliably rip off the extremity and impart a lot of force on my body. I would certainly be out of whatever fight cause someone to aim such a gun on me. But my chances to survive with medical attention are still good. That is how 5% survival chance can work out.

Is this before the Yamato was converted from a sunken hulk into a state-of-the-art starship? (Yes, I'm old enough to remember Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers.)

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, Christopher said:

Why did they set a Trap for Han? To get Luke!

As Han remarked: "They did not even ask me any questions". The whole torture was only there to get a Force Vision to Luke and draw him to Vader.

 

The Trap for Rey was Kylo, not Finn. And it was explicitly set by Snoke by "linking your minds".

 

So, where exactly is the difference? Who was used as bait? Wow, big difference.

The difference, at least to me, was that Han felt relevant (oh, and BF still wanted Han for the bounty).  Remove Han, Chewie and Leia from ESB, and we either have a trip to Dagobah where Luke completes his training, or Luke is eaten  by a Wampa before Vader even gets to Hoth.  Remove Rose, Poe and Finn from this movie, and we have a shorter, more focused movie surrounding Rey's interactions with Luke, Ren and Snoke.  Maybe brief snippets of the Resistance so Ren can refrain from firing, the flight to Krait can get increasingly desperate, and Luke can make his last stand while the remnants of the Resistance are spirited away by Rey and Chewie.

 

Hopefully SW 9 will make all of the supposed "main characters" feel meaningful - not the Jedi above the scampering muggles.

[Badger]

5 hours ago, Starlord said:

Blah, blah, blah, Kirk and Spock kick everyone's whiney, fatalistic quitter jedi ass.... 

 

If the weapons are even, yes.

[Badger]

7 hours ago, megaplayboy said:

Scaling is also the reason SW ships likely trounce ST ships--even if you assume SW STL drive is 1/4 the top speed of ST Impulse Drive, there's still a proportional relationship between shield and weapons power and the power output of the engines.  So SW captal ships should have shields several times stronger(surface area is a square function) and weapons dozens of times stronger than ST capital ship weapons.  

 

I've always got the feeling SW hyperspeed is far superior to warp drive, don't think the Enterprise could get across a galaxy during a commercial break.

 

 

Nevermind STL not FTL.

[Starlord]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

 

If the weapons are even, yes.

 

Judo chop and nerve pinch trump everything

[Christopher]

8 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

Is this before the Yamato was converted from a sunken hulk into a state-of-the-art starship? (Yes, I'm old enough to remember Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers.)

Both of them. The beam guns are designed to kill enemy starships. So with the little resistance my arm provides, the chances of energy bleeding off the focussed beam into my torso is low.

 

Once you need to pierce armor/shields/other defenses, your weapon usually relies on the defense as part of making damage. Armor Piercing weapons need the resistance of the armor to become primed.

[megaplayboy]

Depends upon whether the contact with your extremity conveys any hydrostatic shock to the rest of your body.  Probably not, but if it did, with that magnitude of shockwave, probably kill you instantly.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Badger said:

 

I've always got the feeling SW hyperspeed is far superior to warp drive, don't think the Enterprise could get across a galaxy during a commercial break.

 

Yeah, especially when Finn and Rose can hyperspeed out to that casino planet (not likely in the immediate vicinity of the Resistance fleet), make all the trouble they made, then hyperspeed back, all in well under a day (the resistance only had a few hours of fuel, didn't they?)

[Christopher]

16 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Yeah, especially when Finn and Rose can hyperspeed out to that casino planet (not likely in the immediate vicinity of the Resistance fleet), make all the trouble they made, then hyperspeed back, all in well under a day (the resistance only had a few hours of fuel, didn't they?)

I think they started with 72 hours (3 days) of it. So it is actually a lot of time.

 

But still pretty darn fast.

[zslane]

Indeed.

 

Maximum hyperspace speed is not stated in the movies, however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds upwards of 10e8 x c. OTOH, maximum warp speed is ~2000c (warp 9.6), sustainable 12 hours for a single sprint of roughly 3 light-years. This appears to have increased to roughly 3000c for newer ships such as the Intrepid-class.

[Christopher]

3 minutes ago, zslane said:

Indeed.

 

Maximum hyperspace speed is not stated in the movies, however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds upwards of 10e8 x c. OTOH, maximum warp speed is ~2000c (warp 9.6), sustainable 12 hours for a single sprint of roughly 3 light-years. This appears to have increased to roughly 3000c for newer ships such as the Intrepid-class.

If there is anything even close to Hyperspace speeds in Star Trek, it has to be the Transwarp Network.

Maybe Quantum Slipstream comes close as well, but it seems to be considered "inferior" to true Transwarp.

[zslane]

I'm not sure if 100,000 qualifies as "close" to 100,000,000. Once you get past all the technobabble describing transwarp, you only get speeds upwards of about 10e6 x c. Hyperspace travel is still two to three orders of magnitude faster. And hyperdrives aren't even exotic; they are common enough to be installed on single-seat fighters.