Bazza Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Since Disney ignored Lucas' treatments for episodes 7 & 8, and with all the controversy & discussion re 8, I kinda would like to know what Lucas intended the sequel trilogy to be. Would it have been better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Did you not see the prequels? massey, Christopher and Pattern Ghost 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 6 minutes ago, Old Man said: Did you not see the prequels? Maybe he saw them and keeps supressing them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, Old Man said: Did you not see the prequels? Yes I saw them. Good mythology in 'bad' films. Bad as in too cgi heavy, wooden acting, dialogue that needed improvement, etc. It seems that the Disney films have ignored the mythological roots of Star Wars and just given us generic Hollywood-ified films, though it is still too early to judge without the third film. Starlord and Ragitsu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 I've always maintained that Lucas is great at ideas but mostly mediocre with execution. IOW, he should have written up the prequal outline for better writers and directors to flesh out (like he did with ESB). Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Star Wars was so good because the screenplay had been perfected over the course of many years, with input from esteemed peers (like Coppola). The prequel screenplays were garbage because they were typically pumped out over the course of a couple of weeks, while pre-production crews sat around twiddling their thumbs, and nobody was willing to stand up and tell Lucas his first (and only) drafts needed significant work. mrinku 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 In addition, it was the ONLY one where Lucas was subject to normal production oversight. There was a degree of budget pressure on Empire that helped keep things in check, but after that it was largely unfettered. Oh, and harking back to an earlier page of the discussion, I was browsing a Last Jedi magazine and it stated that the bomb loads "fall" toward the target using magnetic attraction. That appears to be the official explanation; I can live with that. One thing I hadn't spotted is that the X-Wings in use were a different model to those seen in Force Awakens. An earlier design, showing that the Resistance was falling back on mothballed resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I, too, could live with the official explanation, but I wish it were provided in the movie rather than in some dead tree magazine a month later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 The Leadership Vacuum in the Star Wars Universe Bazza and Hermit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted January 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I separate my Ep 8 critiques into two different areas. The first are production issues. Too long, needs serious editing, problems with pacing, etc. Characters who are too "jokey" for a movie that is supposed to be somewhat serious. To me the movie had too many problems in this area for me to really enjoy it. I leaned over to my girlfriend in the middle of the casino scene and said "this is kinda boring" and she agreed. These were problems with the execution that I think really hurt the movie. The second are the choices made for the plot and the direction of the film. I haven't really talked about this before. Mark Hamill stated his displeasure with what they did with Luke. I understand trying to buck the system and go against genre conventions to surprise the audience. I appreciate what they were trying to do, but I still didn't like it. But I tried not to judge the movie on its creative direction -- at least they had a vision they were trying to put on film, even if it wasn't for me. Now, there were several really good scenes. There's a good movie in here somewhere if they can edit the crap out of it and make a few different decisions with the plot. So I didn't completely hate it. I think I said earlier, all the Rey and Darth Emo stuff was really good. -- The two biggest problems I have with the story are these: First, the new characters aren't allowed to do anything important. Everything Poe Dameron tries ends up not working. Finn and the girl don't accomplish anything. All Rey really does is go get Luke out of his cave. Finn doesn't even get to sacrifice himself to save the Rebellion. Stupid ugly girl saves him. These guys are so unimportant the Imperials didn't even bother killing them when they're right there, like 20 feet in front of the AT-ATs. The message we get is "none of these guys are as good as the original characters". I don't think that's the message they're trying to send, but that's the message that was received. Second, I agree with Mark Hamill. That's not Luke. I get that he failed his nephew, and feels like he let Han and Leia down. But he wouldn't run off and mope while his sister was fighting against this massive empire. It felt really out of character. Now, they could have sold it differently. They could have played up him turning to the Dark Side a bit more. Rey finds the weird pit thing and she realizes maybe Luke isn't the good guy anymore. Maybe it was Luke's teachings that led Kylo Ren to be who he is now. Luke could have been a little too much like his father. Play up the struggle a lot more as one of good vs evil. But they never really sold that. He's just a depressed burnout. -- To get a tighter movie, here's what I'd suggest: -Ditch the one-liners, the Buffy-esque dialogue, and the uncomfortable humor. It detracts from the tension. -Speed up the space battle at the beginning. Don't have the bombers creep along before they dropped their cargo. Have them zip and zoom, flying at a break-neck pace. Much more exciting. -Make the chase between the First Order fleet and the surviving rebel ships faster, not looking like two fleets not moving at all. -Cut the space walrus titties. Yuck. -Make Leia die instead of Superman-ing back to the ship. Big emotional scene. You've got to kill her in the next movie anyway. -Eliminate the trip to the casino planet. Have the master codebreaker guy in the brig on the rebel ship as a captured "I do anything for money" guy. -Let the rebel leadership be okay with Poe's daring plan. In Star Wars, you should *listen* to hotshot pilots, because they blow up Death Stars. -Give Luke a good reason why he's not with the rebellion. He's not moping, he's doing something important. Maybe he's fighting the Dark Side within himself (scene of Rey sneaking out at night to find Luke going wild with lightsaber, slicing through boulders and releasing rage). Maybe she walks him back so he's not a danger to others. -Snoke's big goal is to fully turn Luke, as he turned his apprentice. -No need to see 3 versions of the same "Luke leering at sleeping Kylo" scene. -Get rid of light speed kamikaze attack. Because otherwise that's just the normal thing you would do. Instead have suicide run at regular speed, flanked by last surviving X-Wings. Reduce Imperial fleet size as needed because of lack of super-shockwave upon impact. -Let Finn heroically sacrifice himself stopping big gun. -Have Luke really be there in person. Finds out Leia is dead, almost loses himself to Dark Side, nearly slaughters Kylo Ren. But regains control at the end, lets self get killed like Kenobi. -Rey moves much smaller pile of boulders. -Bigger group of rebels escapes, with more ships. Meet up with fleet that they radio'd for when they got to the cave. There. That's my version. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Old Man said: The Leadership Vacuum in the Star Wars Universe That article, while spot on in its analysis, is missing the meta forest for the diagetic trees. The leadership displayed in these movies is so poor because the writers don't know anything whatsoever about proper military conduct, effective echelon command and control, effective campaign strategy, or realistic operations and logistical management. The only storytelling imperative they seem to follow is "keep it bone stupid for the audience who will never know the difference." Starlord 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Old Man said: The Leadership Vacuum in the Star Wars Universe Well, reading that article made me wonder if I would be a "military genius" in the SW universe. ANd I get the impression, Poe thinks he is leading the Soviet forces in WW2 with their seemingly endless supply of manpower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 3 hours ago, zslane said: That article, while spot on in its analysis, is missing the meta forest for the diagetic trees. The leadership displayed in these movies is so poor because the writers don't know anything whatsoever about proper military conduct, effective echelon command and control, effective campaign strategy, or realistic operations and logistical management. The only storytelling imperative they seem to follow is "keep it bone stupid for the audience who will never know the difference." Hmm, maybe they should have spent 24 hours watching AHC and their WW2 documentaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I also really want to play Poe in chess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Rey did accomplish something. She gave Ren the opportunity to kill Snoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I just had a weird thought. SOmeone should have done a parody song about being a Sith Lord done to Kid Rock's Cowboy that would be awesome....I think? Edit: Oh , and by the way Darth Badger isn't taken yet is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Christopher said: In other news someone started a Petition to have EP 8 "sticken from canon": https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon Signatories are under 80k. Consiering the million of people that watched it to get that 1 billion figure together, I find their group irrelevant. Where's the petition to ban midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks? Cuz I'd sign that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Old Man said: Sadly.... Old Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Starlord said: Where's the petition to ban midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks? Cuz I'd sign that.... Id sign it twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I do not quite get why people are sto pissed that not all characters managed to do something despite trying really hard. That is not a bad thing. That is a integral part of the classical hero, handed down from sage of Gilgamesh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted January 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Trying and failing is one thing. But when you've got a 2 hour 40 minute movie, having a half-hour unneeded subplot that ultimately fails... that's where you trim down your movie. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 So what was Data doing in The Last Jedi? I thought they killed him off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Trying and failing is only part of the Hero's Journey if it results in crucial character (or plot) development. The side trip to Canto Bight, for instance, did neither. Poe's actions may lead to some character development, but we haven't seen it yet. All we saw were the tragic consequences of his failures. Some of this has to do with the fact that this movie is a middle chapter, with plot and character development strands that won't get tied up and resolved until the next movie (if ever). But a lot of it, I feel, is simply the result of questionable writing and some questionable creative choices as a whole for this new trilogy. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Ridley Scott thinks Alien should be on same level as Star Trek and Star Wars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.