HKA (Ranged) vs. RKA (No Range) for AoE Attacks

[C-Note]

For Area-of-Effect attacks which originate on the user (e.g. flamethrower, breath weapon, etc.), should it be built as HKA (Ranged, No Strength Bonus) or RKA (No Range)? What's the difference?  Thanks.

[Ninja-Bear]

HKA ranged has the range based on STR. Whereas RKA no range isn’t based on STR and always originated from user. 

[Doc Democracy]

why are you thinking about ranged at all?

 

If the area effect begins in front of him and projects out then I would simply be looking at area effect...

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

HKA ranged has the range based on STR. Whereas RKA no range isn’t based on STR and always originated from user. 

 

It does? That's news to me.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I need to look that up later.

[Lucius]

To answer the original question:

 

A major difference between Hand Killing Attack with Range Advantage, and Ranged Killing Attack with the No Range Limitation, is that the former has a Range and the latter doesn't. So you want the latter for the purposes you describe.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants a STR based on Range

[LoneWolf]

I would go with the ranged attack no range, but really it makes no difference.  When I see HKA I subconsciously think about adding STR.  On the other hand when I see area of affect cone my first thought is it probably has no range.  Using the RKA just seems to be more clear and concise. 

 

Ranged is not required for the HKA.

[Ninja-Bear]

7 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

It does? That's news to me.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I need to look that up later.

Whoops I think I made a mistake ?

[Cassandra]

9 hours ago, C-Note said:

For Area-of-Effect attacks which originate on the user (e.g. flamethrower, breath weapon, etc.), should it be built as HKA (Ranged, No Strength Bonus) or RKA (No Range)? What's the difference?  Thanks.

 

They both have the same base cost of 15 Points.

 

If you want to use HKA at range by Stretching.

[BoloOfEarth]

10 hours ago, C-Note said:

For Area-of-Effect attacks which originate on the user (e.g. flamethrower, breath weapon, etc.), should it be built as HKA (Ranged, No Strength Bonus) or RKA (No Range)? What's the difference?  Thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Lucius said:

A major difference between Hand Killing Attack with Range Advantage, and Ranged Killing Attack with the No Range Limitation, is that the former has a Range and the latter doesn't. So you want the latter for the purposes you describe.

 

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Ranged is not required for the HKA.

 

Lucius and LoneWolf are correct here.  Since the AoE originates on the user (or more accurately, directly in front of the user), the attack isn't Ranged at all.  So really, it's a choice of HKA (No STR Bonus) vs. RKA (No Range).  In both cost and effect, they're identical for this purpose.  Personally, I'd use the RKA (No Range).

[C-Note]

37 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Lucius and LoneWolf are correct here.  Since the AoE originates on the user (or more accurately, directly in front of the user), the attack isn't Ranged at all.  So really, it's a choice of HKA (No STR Bonus) vs. RKA (No Range).  In both cost and effect, they're identical for this purpose.  Personally, I'd use the RKA (No Range).

 

Thanks!  It took me a little while to understand the "No Range" modifier on a ranged AoE attack, until I tried to build a flamethrower (No Range, AoE Line)  and a grenade launcher (AoE Explosion).  That was my "Eureka!" moment.

 

Would there ever be a reason to use "No Range" on a ranged attack that wasn't AoE?

[BoloOfEarth]

Sure.  A "death touch" spell, for example, might be defined as an RKA No Range rather than a straight HKA since you don't add STR into it.  Similarly, a lightsaber or a monofilament sword could be an RKA No Range.

[LoneWolf]

Most attack powers are usable at range so there are many times you will use no range when the power is not AoE.  With Blast you use HTHA instead, but other attacks delivered by touch will use not range.  Let’s say you are creating something that weakens its opponent with a touch.  That would be a Drain STR with the limitation No Range. 

[DasBroot]

Wouldn't building a lightsaber or monofilament sword as RKA No Range instead of HKA no Str allow them to be Deflected or Reflected without the usual GM fiat for deciding to allow melee attacks to be Deflected/Reflected? They're still ranged powers... just with no range.

[LoneWolf]

In the Hero system special effect is the important thing.   Sometimes a specific attack may require an advantage or limitation, but its special effect is still the important thing.  When you take the no range limitation on the power it is no longer a ranged attack.  If I create an undead monster that drains Body with a touch, that is a HTH attack not a ranged attack.  It is treated as a HTH attack for all purposes. 

[dsatow]

I'd like to note that technically, a HtHKA can be martial blocked and a RKA can be deflected, but not vice versa depending on if the GM allows the special effect to be affected by the maneuvers.  And if the target has DCV modifiers which only affect ranged or HTH and if the AoE is either selective or non-selective.

[Surrealone]

dsatow,

I'm glad you brought up those nuances ... because you saved me the trouble of doing so ... and did it in fewer words than I'd likely have used.

[LoneWolf]

When you apply an advantage or a limitation it changes the power.  If I have a HTHKA Useable at Range that is a ranged attack, and can be deflected as well as blocked.  If I have a RKA with the limitation No Range that is no longer a ranged attack.  If they are still considered the original type of attack then I can use skill levels with the original type of attack.  This would mean that I could by my HTHKA or HTHA at range and use 5pt levels with HTH combat no matter how I am using it.  This violates the section on common sense in the beginning of the rules.

 

If I buy my Lightsaber as a RKA no range (among other things) it is a HTH attack, not a ranged attack. I can use it with my HTH martial arts assuming I have the appropriate weapon element.  My levels with HTH combat can be used with it.  And I have to factor in the HTH modifiers for my opponents DCV.

[dsatow]

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If I buy my Lightsaber as a RKA no range (among other things) it is a HTH attack, not a ranged attack. I can use it with my HTH martial arts assuming I have the appropriate weapon element.  My levels with HTH combat can be used with it.  And I have to factor in the HTH modifiers for my opponents DCV.

 

That's normally true, but the GM can consider it a ranged attack even if its HTH because the character is using the AoE advantage to provide the range on the attack.

[mrinku]

As a point, AoE can be bought on unmodified HKA (it's not limited to "ranged attacks"). So the choice here is between:

 

HKA; AoE; No Str Bonus (-½)

RKA; AoE; No range (-½)

 

Points identical, effects basically the same. IMHO both builds should be considered "ranged" (because most AoE do give limited range and touching the target isn't required). If the AoE was bought as Surface (User or Target) it'd be considered a close combat power.

 

However, special effects inform that. HKA AoE might be defined as spinning a web of steel; clearly THAT is close combat. Flame breath, on the other hand, would normally be treated as ranged. For my mind it's cleaner to use RKA in this situation for Flame Breath, but you might be building a flexible power such as:

 

Flames of the Dragon: 2d6 HKE; Variable Advantage (+1); Variable Limitation (-¼)

 

Which would allow any combination of +½ and -½ modifiers, such as a 16m Cone AoE and No Str Bonus, or Armour Piercing at x2 END.

[Surrealone]

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If I have a RKA with the limitation No Range that is no longer a ranged attack.

Incorrect -- specifically because of a subtle but important nuance/distinction. A RKA bought with No Range is still a ranged attack ... the nuance is in the fact that its range just happens to be the same as a HKA or melee attack as a result of the application of the No Range limitation.  i.e. The No Range limitation does NOT magically change the ranged attack such that skill levels with all ranged attacks (for example) no longer apply; instead, the application of the No Range limitation adjusts the range (and ONLY the range) of the power.  (If the power was not usable with ranged combat skill levels ... that would be worth yet another limitation ... assuming it also couldn't benefit from HTH combat skill levels because it still didn't make thematic sense for the power to be HTH.)

A flamethrower (as mentioned earlier) is a fine example of this situation -- a RKA bought AoE: Line w/ the No Range limitation -- wherein Combat Skill levels with All Ranged Attacks should still apply to it, as it's certainly not a HKA with the ability to put strength behind it to do more damage (at least not while using it as intended) ... and it's certainly wielded more like a gun than a sword (again, while using it as intended).

 

Keep in mind that this scenario is, indeed, in the weeds.  It's usually pretty clear where one should use a HKA (e.g. sword) or a RKA (e.g. gun) ... but there are some outlier scenarios (like the flamethrower) that get down into the gray area.  When trying to make such a choice, it's often helpful to look at which CSLs and/or PSLs would make sense with the attack in question (even if you have no plan to take those CSLs or PSLs) ... just to help inform you of which of the two approaches to select.

[LoneWolf]

What really matters in a case like this is the special effect of the power.  If I have a death touch power which is bought as Drain Body with the limitation No Range that should be a HTH attack.  If I buy a lightsaber as a RKA  with the advantage Attack vs Limited Defense, No Range that is also a HTH attack. If I have a martial arts power bought as a Blast with the advantage AoE radius No Range that is also going to be a HTH attack.  The breath weapon I can see as a ranged attack.

 

In most cases a power with the limitation No Range is going to be a HTH attack.  There are some things due to special effect that may still be considered a ranged attack, but that is going to be fairly uncommon

[dmjalund]

if using the attack will trigger a Damage Shiield, then it should be HTH, otherwise it is probably Ranged.

[mrinku]

Whether physical contact happens or not is a good rule of thumb. And as has been discussed, AoE (or Stretching) can allow attacks at a distance without them needing the Ranged modifier.

[dmjalund]

I meant Ranged as for Skill Level descriptions

[Lucius]

 

There seems to be difference of opinion as to what Skill Levels apply to something like a Ranged Power bought with No Range, or a normally not ranged power bought with the Range Advantage.

 

Does anyone have an actual relevant rules citation?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Usable at Range